How to use less rein

[Bellabeau]

I’m training a 4yo for all around events. He knows how to give to the bit, but he tends to pull on me, root, and move his head up and down and overflexed and back up…etc. I have to have a good hold on him to keep him at a decent speed (trot/jog/canter/lope). I school in a big double jointed snaffle (copper) and he hates single jointed bits. I’ve tried a low port myler snaffle but he works about the same in it.

Any tips? I’d like to get him trotting out on a loose rein, and not have to constantly hold him/check him to maintain a jog. And I need some sort of way to slow his canter. He has a slow one, but lately what I get is borderline hand gallop.

I have many years of experience, and I do take lessons with him in the summer (but I can’t this time of year).

[TheHunterKid90]

Refer to the post on ranch riding - slowing the lope. There’s some good advice in that post, although I don’t suggest doing what the poster did and galloping her horse in a tight circle til she wore him out to prove she was the boss and he was going to listen to her.
As far as him rooting, he does that because you are probably Not providing appropriate release. A horse learns from your release. The first step so every time he gives, release immediately. The second step is once your horse gives every time then you can take hold and hold until he isn’t busy with his face anymore. They will initially think “uhm, I gave, why are you still holding?” It’s just the next step. Note I said hold, not pull back or harder when your horses face gets busy. If you pull back or pull more, you’re teaching your horse to fight.

[Bluey]

Well, it is not about the reins and bit, but about teaching a horse to carry itself and then the head will end up in the right place by itself.

What then is how you train a horse to listen to you?
With the reins as a indicating, guiding and supporting aid, but you have to ride with your weight and legs first to generate the impulsion from behind and then your hands are receiving that and doing the indicating, guiding and supporting.

I would say, if your horse is rooting on the bit and shaking it’s head, he is not working over himself, but keeps falling on his front end.

You can get him back over himself and collected better with many transitions and turns, keep his body busy, so he will work at finding and keeping his balance.

As already mentioned above, if your horse is rooting, he is rooting against something?
Try using the lightest touch you can use on the reins and don’t give him something to root against or reason to shake his head, while you are using your seat to move him on and your legs to get him to bring his hind end under himself.

Best if you could have someone show you on a well trained horse, so you get a feel for what you are after and for how to ask a horse to work under you with the reins a mere hint, your other aids carrying the conversation.

A local reining trainer puts his riders for some minutes in a small round pen with a finished reiner schoolmaster, hands folded in front of them, not touching the reins at all, so they learn to use their body to guide and slow and speed up and stop and back the horse.

If you don’t have a trainer and an already trained horse to learn with, it is going to be hard to get there on your own, as you are finding out.

[Doctracy]

He needs self carriage and strength. Are you sure nothing hurts? Hocks,back,teeth,front feet?
Rooting-are you riding too much off the hands,not enough off seat and legs? Change up bits,find something he can carry and likes. A happy mouth,copper mouth,sweet water arch,Mullen or low/wide port. Has he been in a solid bit with medium port yet,or just snaffles? Is he young enough to try a bosal?
Lateral movements-dressage stuff- shoulder in/out,side pass at walk,trot and lope. Haunches in. Turn on hindquarters and forehand. Transitions,lots of transitions in gait and between gaits.
I also introduce lots of poles to engage the brain,develop cadence and to develop straightness and lifting the back,lowering the head by themselves. Walk,trot and lope poles,set slightly longer than regulation trail.
I like to pull parts from Tim Kimura trail patterns to practice a little at a time. This really helps me with all around stuff,since elements of trail are in many other classes such as over fences,equitation/horsemanship,western ridding and pleasure.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Bellabeau;8489812]
I’m training a 4yo for all around events. He knows how to give to the bit, but he tends to pull on me, root, and move his head up and down and overflexed and back up…etc. I have to have a good hold on him to keep him at a decent speed (trot/jog/canter/lope). I school in a big double jointed snaffle (copper) and he hates single jointed bits. I’ve tried a low port myler snaffle but he works about the same in it.

Any tips? I’d like to get him trotting out on a loose rein, and not have to constantly hold him/check him to maintain a jog. And I need some sort of way to slow his canter. He has a slow one, but lately what I get is borderline hand gallop.

I have many years of experience, and I do take lessons with him in the summer (but I can’t this time of year).[/QUOTE]

It sounds like you are on the right path, just need more time spent on the basics. If you rely on your reins to stop/slow him, you won’t get him going correctly on a loose rein.

So ditto what other say, you have to work on balance and conditioning, and the ability to carry himself without leaning on your hands will develop over time. Lateral work is your best friend.

[Wirt]

You can change bits all you want. If you don’t have educated hands, you cannot fix this.
You cannot do lateral work as suggested, if you do not have educated hands.
You can’t progress. Light hands, are not necessarily educated hands. You can be as light as a feather, and the horse just learns to pull the reins from you. It’s a disaster.
Your horse is responding to your lack of education.
You can’t read about it here. Find someone who will guide you and teach you. Find someone who can teach your horse and then the horse can teach you.

[Bellabeau]

[QUOTE=TheHunterKid90;8489896]
Refer to the post on ranch riding - slowing the lope. There’s some good advice in that post, although I don’t suggest doing what the poster did and galloping her horse in a tight circle til she wore him out to prove she was the boss and he was going to listen to her.
As far as him rooting, he does that because you are probably Not providing appropriate release. A horse learns from your release. The first step so every time he gives, release immediately. The second step is once your horse gives every time then you can take hold and hold until he isn’t busy with his face anymore. They will initially think “uhm, I gave, why are you still holding?” It’s just the next step. Note I said hold, not pull back or harder when your horses face gets busy. If you pull back or pull more, you’re teaching your horse to fight.[/QUOTE]

Thanks - I will read that post. Initially when I started him in this bit, he would take it and stretch down into it when I took up contact so I would soften and reward him for seeking the bit. Then after a little while I started doing that and then shortening the reins up to where I wanted him to be (he was willing to trot along with his nose almost on the ground, lol) and gently asking him to keep his head there. When he gave I softened. The issue now is that we’re basically at that same point, but he wants to consistently speed up. Holding on the reins to rate him isn’t working very well, and he’s very sensitive and I get the impression he gets worked up and rushes and fidgets with his head position. Exercises to fix that? I do try lots of circles and changes of direction and he can do leg yields. He just doesn’t run out of energy or enthusiasm which can be hard to contain. He’d happily trot at harness racer speed in a 15 foot circle. I can’t figure out how to get through to him to just relax.

[Bellabeau]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8489932]
Well, it is not about the reins and bit, but about teaching a horse to carry itself and then the head will end up in the right place by itself.

What then is how you train a horse to listen to you?
With the reins as a indicating, guiding and supporting aid, but you have to ride with your weight and legs first to generate the impulsion from behind and then your hands are receiving that and doing the indicating, guiding and supporting.

I would say, if your horse is rooting on the bit and shaking it’s head, he is not working over himself, but keeps falling on his front end.

You can get him back over himself and collected better with many transitions and turns, keep his body busy, so he will work at finding and keeping his balance.

As already mentioned above, if your horse is rooting, he is rooting against something?
Try using the lightest touch you can use on the reins and don’t give him something to root against or reason to shake his head, while you are using your seat to move him on and your legs to get him to bring his hind end under himself.

Best if you could have someone show you on a well trained horse, so you get a feel for what you are after and for how to ask a horse to work under you with the reins a mere hint, your other aids carrying the conversation.

A local reining trainer puts his riders for some minutes in a small round pen with a finished reiner schoolmaster, hands folded in front of them, not touching the reins at all, so they learn to use their body to guide and slow and speed up and stop and back the horse.

If you don’t have a trainer and an already trained horse to learn with, it is going to be hard to get there on your own, as you are finding out.[/QUOTE]

Yes I agree that he is falling on his front end. I try lots of circles as I go around the rail to rebalance him, which works to some degree but he likes to keep motoring on and fidgeting regardless. As soon as I can get him to do something relaxed or at least at a nice pace with a consistent head, I praise him and end the session for now.

I rode a friends WP QH once before and while I’m not into specifically WP, I would love to have that degree of lightness and subtlety with my guy. I just can’t seem to replicate it. I also don’t know of any western trainers around here that aren’t into big bits and draw reins… and I don’t want to do that.

[Bellabeau]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;8490027]
He needs self carriage and strength. Are you sure nothing hurts? Hocks,back,teeth,front feet?
Rooting-are you riding too much off the hands,not enough off seat and legs? Change up bits,find something he can carry and likes. A happy mouth,copper mouth,sweet water arch,Mullen or low/wide port. Has he been in a solid bit with medium port yet,or just snaffles? Is he young enough to try a bosal?
Lateral movements-dressage stuff- shoulder in/out,side pass at walk,trot and lope. Haunches in. Turn on hindquarters and forehand. Transitions,lots of transitions in gait and between gaits.
I also introduce lots of poles to engage the brain,develop cadence and to develop straightness and lifting the back,lowering the head by themselves. Walk,trot and lope poles,set slightly longer than regulation trail.
I like to pull parts from Tim Kimura trail patterns to practice a little at a time. This really helps me with all around stuff,since elements of trail are in many other classes such as over fences,equitation/horsemanship,western ridding and pleasure.[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty sure he’s ok health-wise. He’s due for his teeth being floated in the spring, so maybe there’s something there? They get done yearly but I know he still has baby teeth to go. And he doesn’t seem to have any back/leg/hoof pain. I will ride him on a loose rein if he doesn’t try to freight-train off with me, he is very sensitive and I consistently try to ride on a loose rein as much as possible.
As far as bits, I have him in a thick double jointed copper loose ring snaffle. He was ridden in a high port correction bit to “get his head down” before I bought him, but he hadn’t been trained much at that point so I’ve been able to pretty much “start” him how I want. He hates solid curbs. I’ve also ridden him in a mechanical hackamore on a loose rein to teach him to neck rein so he wouldn’t focus so much on his mouth, and he does great in it but still wants to rush everywhere instead of relaxing and slowing.
And thanks for all the other ideas Doctracy, I will try them!

[Bellabeau]

PB - Thanks for the encouragement. I’m trying to really take my time and not push him. I’m just always open to suggestions and different exercises to try out on him and see if something else might help. Thanks!

Wirt - I realize the bit isn’t the problem. I’ve just tried a few different kinds of mild bits to make sure he wasn’t just hating on one particular mouthpiece or something that he fusses so much. I do take lessons in the spring/summer/fall but this time of year I can’t trailer out to them and I don’t have an indoor, so whenever it’s not icy I make the most of my outdoor. I’m really just looking for input from some of the AQHA type people on here who might have some tips and exercises for getting him lighter off my hands and relaxed.

[Wirt]

He is going to try and talk you into holding him in place. I would work with a simple snaffle. No leverage. No attempting to set his head. When you pick up on rein, he should give his head to laterally. Not down. You don’t have to pull on him, but do not allow him to take his head from you. Both sides. Take his head around. You don’t even have to be moving. When you do go, when you pick up that rein and he blast through it,and you really want to take hold with both reins, don’t. Take his head around. Even if he flops around and stumbles around. Wait for his feet to stop. Then let him go on a loose rein. If he charges off again, take his head around again until his feet slow or stop. Then let him go. Pretty soon, he will learn to follow that one rein. But he needs to know that at any time, you could take his head around.
It should be noted, this is not a “one rein stop” Forget about that. Just bend him with one rein, and go on.
I use a bosal, a true rawhide hackamore. It’s called a double.
Forget trying to do anything else until you establish this very rudimentary control, which you do not have. If this is done right, he will learn to float on a loose rein. But you have to be able to ride well also. Let him speed up and ride it. Maybe better in a small arena for you at first. Yes, be careful of the footing.

[Bellabeau]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8491104]
He is going to try and talk you into holding him in place. I would work with a simple snaffle. No leverage. No attempting to set his head. When you pick up on rein, he should give his head to laterally. Not down. You don’t have to pull on him, but do not allow him to take his head from you. Both sides. Take his head around. You don’t even have to be moving. When you do go, when you pick up that rein and he blast through it,and you really want to take hold with both reins, don’t. Take his head around. Even if he flops around and stumbles around. Wait for his feet to stop. Then let him go on a loose rein. If he charges off again, take his head around again until his feet slow or stop. Then let him go. Pretty soon, he will learn to follow that one rein. But he needs to know that at any time, you could take his head around.
It should be noted, this is not a “one rein stop” Forget about that. Just bend him with one rein, and go on.
I use a bosal, a true rawhide hackamore. It’s called a double.
Forget trying to do anything else until you establish this very rudimentary control, which you do not have. If this is done right, he will learn to float on a loose rein. But you have to be able to ride well also. Let him speed up and ride it. Maybe better in a small arena for you at first. Yes, be careful of the footing.[/QUOTE]

I started doing a little of this the last time I rode and while it takes a very long time for him to come down energy-wise, it did seem to be helping. I will keep doing it then.

I can reach down on one rein and he will bring his head around toward my foot (at a standstill), but he kind of hangs on the end of the rein and I have the feeling I’m supporting his head :no: . What should I do about that?

He likes to play the “I don’t want to go to that side of the arena” game so I end up sitting out some strange behaviors until he realizes we ARE going that way, and it seems to help. Less baby tantrums. Thanks for your input Wirt!

[merrygoround]

Get yourself a to a trainer who can explain to you what you, yourself need to do to solve these problems. The answer is not in the bit it is in how you ride the
horse.
Itneed not necessarily be a western trainer. The essential principles are the same.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8491411]
Get yourself a to a trainer who can explain to you what you, yourself need to do to solve these problems. The answer is not in the bit it is in how you ride the
horse.
Itneed not necessarily be a western trainer. The essential principles are the same.[/QUOTE]

That.

For what the OP’s last post shows, I am not sure we are on the same track anyway.
Her concepts don’t seem to quite line up with those standard ones we take for granted, like what “neck reining” is, as per the strange comment of “use a mechanical hackamore to teach it” may mean.

I think the OP needs a good, basic trainer helping with all that in person.

[TheHunterKid90]

Look at some past threads I’ve commented on, I’ve posted a lot about maintaining control, slowing gaits and keep your horses attention.
As for teaching your horse to neck rein, I’m afraid if doesn’t matter if he neck reins of he cannot give to bit pressure and stay quiet in his face.
Neck reining isn’t something you just decide to teach your horse. It’s progressively learned wnd developed with consistent riding and cuing. By always “leading”'with your outside rein and leg and following it up with bumping the horses nose in the direction you want him to go with your inside rein. Your horse eventually understands to move away from the pressure of the outside aids without using inside rein pressure. Like I said, it’s a way of riding. Every ride from their very first rides as 2 year olds, my horses are all ridden the same - outside aids first. Which is why some of the just coming three year olds are riding a lot one handed. It’s consistency and repetivenes. But like I said, teach your horse to give to pressure and carry the bit first. I think your horse is stretching because he learned you won’t bother him down there and hense you’ve taught taught him to put his head down, but not to carry himself or give to actual pressure.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bellabeau;8491233]
I started doing a little of this the last time I rode and while it takes a very long time for him to come down energy-wise, it did seem to be helping. I will keep doing it then.

I can reach down on one rein and he will bring his head around toward my foot (at a standstill), but he kind of hangs on the end of the rein and I have the feeling I’m supporting his head :no: . What should I do about that?

He likes to play the “I don’t want to go to that side of the arena” game so I end up sitting out some strange behaviors until he realizes we ARE going that way, and it seems to help. Less baby tantrums. Thanks for your input Wirt![/QUOTE]

You hold that rein and let him pull on himself. You have to wait. Have someone bring you lunch or dinner. But wait until he releases to you. But you have to make sure you are not pulling, because when he releases, your hand will come back and he will find no release. So fix your hand on your leg if you have to. The moment you feel him begin to give, release.
If you release and his head springs forward like spring steel, then you have to start over. The feel you are looking for is he stays there for a moment when you release. If he starts to out smart you,(sounds like he has all ready) change sides.

Don’t even worry about trying to ride any particular place yet, and don’t set it up to fail, where you end up in a contest with him.

[Bluey]

Also, don’t overdo any flexing or expect too much at first, a few inches and release if he is soft, slowly he will understand to give a bit more and more until he offers you when you ask, that is your goal, even if just a little bit of offering.

Reward every little try in the right direction.
Beware, you don’t want to have a rubber necked horse, that the head and neck work separately from the body as an evasion, so don’t work on this too much or too long.

One point that I will make as an English rider that was taught utter respect for a horse, especially the horse’s mouth, never let yourself be jerking around on a rein, even if many do it, especially western trainers.
Just don’t do it, it is not necessary, acquire the skills to ask a horse without needing to become harsh with your hands.

Keep remembering to have the horse under you, to use your weight and legs all along with your soft but effective hands, that is important and bears repeating.

[Bellabeau]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8491453]
That.

For what the OP’s last post shows, I am not sure we are on the same track anyway.
Her concepts don’t seem to quite line up with those standard ones we take for granted, like what “neck reining” is, as per the strange comment of “use a mechanical hackamore to teach it” may mean.

I think the OP needs a good, basic trainer helping with all that in person.[/QUOTE]

I am very much on the same track Bluey. I mentioned using the hackamore because someone else mentioned riding him in a bosal (which I don’t have) and I wanted to state that I had tried riding him in a bitless option and how he reacted in it.

I used it for starting him on neck reining because, as I’ve posted, he tends to focus very much on the bit (active mouth) and less on other cues, and I wanted to take a break from constantly working on the bitting issues and just work on another aspect of his training. With the hackamore he was more tuned in to my body language and it took away the mental pressure he seems to feel with a bit while we worked on something else.

[Bellabeau]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8491581]
Also, don’t overdo any flexing or expect too much at first, a few inches and release if he is soft, slowly he will understand to give a bit more and more until he offers you when you ask, that is your goal, even if just a little bit of offering.

Reward every little try in the right direction.
Beware, you don’t want to have a rubber necked horse, that the head and neck work separately from the body as an evasion, so don’t work on this too much or too long.

One point that I will make as an English rider that was taught utter respect for a horse, especially the horse’s mouth, never let yourself be jerking around on a rein, even if many do it, especially western trainers.
Just don’t do it, it is not necessary, acquire the skills to ask a horse without needing to become harsh with your hands.

Keep remembering to have the horse under you, to use your weight and legs all along with your soft but effective hands, that is important and bears repeating.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice there. Yes I see a ton of “trainers” ripping on their horses’ mouths for varying reasons and I avoid doing that. I don’t want to hurt his mouth or give him a reason to have a negative feeling for the bit.

[Bellabeau]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8491552]
You hold that rein and let him pull on himself. You have to wait. Have someone bring you lunch or dinner. But wait until he releases to you. But you have to make sure you are not pulling, because when he releases, your hand will come back and he will find no release. So fix your hand on your leg if you have to. The moment you feel him begin to give, release.
If you release and his head springs forward like spring steel, then you have to start over. The feel you are looking for is he stays there for a moment when you release. If he starts to out smart you,(sounds like he has all ready) change sides.

Don’t even worry about trying to ride any particular place yet, and don’t set it up to fail, where you end up in a contest with him.[/QUOTE]

Ok, thanks Wirt. Will do.