How will this affect California Chrome's future stud career

[MonterStables]

So since California Chrome lost the Belmont yesterday, I have been thinking about many things in particular about this race that I have said before on my other thread that I made after he won the Kentucky Derby(if my memory serves me right).

The following things were thoughts that I was pondering, and things that i’d like to discuss with people who are active in Racing and/or are familiar with the goings on in it:

• The comments that Steve Coburn made - at least, I think- showed his true colors. How will that affect picking a stud farm for him to stand at later on in (hypothetically) Kentucky?

• California Chrome is nothing to write home about. His bloodlines are mediocre at best and all he was doing was outrunning his pedigree. As well, he is the best of a downright lousy foal crop. Given this, how greatly will this limit what farms want to acquire him for stud duties?

• Overall, how will this all affect his future as a stallion?

[RainyDayRide]

If they carry forward with plans to race him as a 4 yo, it is too soon to tell.

[MonterStables]

[QUOTE=RainyDayRide;7614226]
If they carry forward with plans to race him as a 4 yo, it is too soon to tell.[/QUOTE]

I had heard that they intended to point him towards the Breeder’s Cup, but nevertheless I was thinking about the above questions because there was a poster on the post that I had made previously who had brought up the fact that even if he won the Triple Crown that he most likely would not be going to Kentucky to get the best mares on account of his bloodlines, etc.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=MonterStables;7614221]

• California Chrome is nothing to write home about. His bloodlines are mediocre at best and all he was doing was outrunning his pedigree. As well, he is the best of a downright lousy foal crop. Given this, how greatly will this limit what farms want to acquire him for stud duties?

• Overall, how will this all affect his future as a stallion?[/QUOTE]

Vineyridge, would you explain why people are saying this horse had a “mediocre” pedigree? Others are saying he is the “best of a lousy foal crop”. However, if that is the case, that would suggest there are plenty of horses with good pedigrees that are doing poorly. So then why would CC’s pedigree be so mediocre according to those people?

[LaurieB]

Not winning the Belmont won’t affect his future stud career at all. Even with no TC, he’s still an excellent racehorse.

Mr. Coburn’s rant? That will definitely narrow down the list of suitors who will come after the horse. People who have the money to buy and stand stallions also have enough clout to be able to pick and chose who they want to do business with. And Steve Coburn certainly made it appear that nothing about doing business with him will be easy. There are some farm owners who will either walk away or lowball their offers after that.

[SnicklefritzG]

Why is it all about Coburn? He may be very vocal, but he’s the 30% owner.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7614443]
Why is it all about Coburn? He may be very vocal, but he’s the 30% owner.[/QUOTE]

Because the other partners are apparently happy to let him speak for them.

[AffirmedHope]

Smarty Jones’ first year at stud was $100,000 I believe, if that tells you anything.

[RainyDayRide]

who knows…given the owners’ unorthodox approach, perhaps they’ll buy a few good mares themselves and stand him at Harris Ranch where he was bred and born.

[MadeYaLook]

Besides I don’t think the mare owners will be dealing with him or the other partner directly- it would be with whatever farm he goes to who would manage the bookings.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=AffirmedHope;7614552]
Smarty Jones’ first year at stud was $100,000 I believe, if that tells you anything.[/QUOTE]

Big Brown started at or above $50k, but I think is down to $10k now.

[AffirmedHope]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7614629]
Big Brown started at or above $50k, but I think is down to $10k now.[/QUOTE]

and SJ is at $7500 and no longer with Three Chimneys

[EventerAJ]

Smarty and Big Brown entered stud in an entirely different economy. Incoming sires used to demand very high (unrealistic) prices, but today’s market is decidedly shifted towards proven sires. New colts fresh off the track are lucky to stand in the 35K range (Blame), with many more in the 15-20K.

California Chrome is said to have an unremarkable pedigree because his sire had an average racing career (for a stallion), stands for cheap in CA, and Love the Chase is very average. There isn’t much black type to be found on his page. An ideal sire’s pedigree is by a fashionable sire of sires (Pulpit, Distorted Humor, etc) with a deep mare family on the bottom: multiple stakes winners in first, second, third dams. Any new stallion is an unknown in the breeding shed, but when his family is full of success, particularly on the dam side, it makes him more desirable at stud.

[LCR]

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/california+chrome His sire is Lucky
Pulpit, by Pulpit

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tonalist2 His sire is Tapit, a son of Pulpit

Examine the rest of the pedigree. Why would anyone make a statement that this is a mediocare pedigree?

[SnicklefritzG]

That’s what I was wondering. I was hoping Vineyridge would comment

[danceronice]

Personally I’d go with Chrome over Tonalist right now. (Tapit won, but then was gone with lung infections.) They’re both inbred to Mr P/RaN but Tonalist more so, plus go back in Chrome’s female family and they’ve now produced four Derby winners. Plus he’s just a better-looking horse who moves nicely. The hard part would be finding mares who aren’t already overly linebred in the same way as both of them…

[EventerAJ]

I’m not sure that Tonalist is all that more desirable than California Chrome (for KY breeders anyway); yes, he’s by Tapit, but he’s a throwback to Pleasant Colony. He’s a true distance horse…and sadly those types aren’t always appreciated in the breeding shed. Tonalist does have a somewhat stronger female family, particularly in the third dam.

Tonalist: 2nd dam, SW Toll Fee dam of SW The Bink; 3rd dam, BOTY Toll Booth, dam of Champion Plugged Nickle, G1SW Christiecat; SWs Idle Gossip, Key to the Bridge & Toll Key.

California Chrome: 2nd dam Chase It Down no black type. 3rd dam Chase the Dream (SW) dam of Amourette (SW).

[RainyDayRide]

Home sweet home…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNKkgwSsFdY

[beowulf]

I would not say CC has a mediocre pedigree. He isn’t flush with fashionable/black type horses, but his pedigree has many favorable horses in it. His dam may be unknown but she has a very strong family.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=LCR;7615417]
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/california+chrome His sire is Lucky
Pulpit, by Pulpit

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tonalist2 His sire is Tapit, a son of Pulpit

Examine the rest of the pedigree. Why would anyone make a statement that this is a mediocare pedigree?[/QUOTE]

Because it’s not just a matter of looking for a few big names in a pedigree. 95% of all horses racing at every level have big names in their pedigrees, some farther back than others. What you need is to see those names in the first and second generations.

If CC was by Pulpit (an excellent racehorse and a sire of sires) rather than by Lucky Pulpit (a pretty good racehorse and a so-so sire with one big horse) it would make a huge difference. But he’s not.

If he had Tonalist’s female family: Toll Booth, Toll Fee, Missy Baba, wow! That would also make a difference. Instead he comes from a line of mares who struggled to win in lower level races. It’s been proven time and again. Female family matters when it comes to good racehorses having the ability to reproduce their own quality.