Somehow, virtually every dressage, jumper, or eventing barn I’ve encountered manages to do just that on a daily basis.
Eta: @McGurk, did you have a contract with this small adult student? Pay her?
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@DBYC,
I did not pay her directly and thereby endanger her amateur status, no. She wasn’t interested in being a riding professional, she had another profession that paid decently. I did pay some entry fees and comp her a bunch of lessons/coaching/services. She was loyal to me and my program because we were small, safe and friendly and she trusted me not to ask her to do anything scary or dangerous.
As a junior and a young AO, she had done a lot of showing in the As and knew the drill and knew what went on, and my little local program was what she wanted as a working adult.
I was very, very, very lucky to have her. The look on other trainer’s faces when they realized it was a 5 foot tall, 100# adult schooling the ponies was priceless.
But back to your situation; and sorry to quote myself:
And as someone else upthread detailed; if Trainer A says no, sorry, I don’t know of anything, THAT’S the time to say “I saw this ad for Trainer B, would that be a good opportunity?”
This serves two purposes: Trainer A can either approve or disapprove of Trainer B’s programs, and if she disapproves, you’ve made it clear that if Trainer A isn’t willing to provide opportunities, you’ll continue to look for them. Not necessarily a bad thing.
That’s just the way it’s done in hunterland.
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I’m not even from the hunter world, but the above way is the only way I would expect Trainer B to hire said pony rider. Regardless of discipline.
Evidently, horse culture in my area is extra weird
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One more time for the newcomers to the thread: this started with me responding to a FB posting last night looking for a one day a week working student to help around the barn with possible riding opportunities asking how old a person they were looking for. Trainer B responded that she needed someone older for horses. Then emailed a second time, basically “Hey, how tall is kid? Occurred to me that I might have a couple ponies that need ridden 1 day a week. Do you have video of her riding?” I then sent a short video, upon which Trainer B clarified that they had had showing in mind & not just an older kid hoping on a pony once a week in exchange for mucking stalls. And that there was a conflict with what they had in mind due to Trainer A.
Had the answer been “Oh, can she come show for me?” Absolutely I would speak to Trainer A. For what I thought I was inquiring about (i.e, barn work & the opportunity to hop on a horse at the end of the shift? Nope. Because: 1) As someone so succinctly stated it in my thread about a fun horse last month, I will not have someone who I’m paying for a service dictate the what & how of what we’re doing in our free time. 2) Trainer A is confident in their professional competence & has several other families who keep their horses at home & regularly engage in equine activity with other professionals. Mini pro catch rider works for several other people by arrangements made totally independent of Trainer A. 3) I get that hunters is a money thing, with trainer bonuses paid out at WEC recently in excess of what the riders won. And that will not change. It still does not make the Messiah complex that some hunter trainers have healthy, professional conduct.
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Witchcraft?
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I would interpret it to mean there would be a conflict of interest between Trainer A and Trainer B. Why go looking for hurt feelings reading into something that probably isn’t there (ex. thinking it means the kid isn’t a good enough rider)? What the conflict of interest is is irrelevant and not really any of your business.
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As an eventer, I will just say that hunter barn politics seem extremely complex. I don’t understand half of the issues that people describe on COTH. How would Trainer B ever expect a kid to be a competent rider if they weren’t already working with a trainer?
If Trainer A is as laid back as you say, might be worth going to her with the story, prefaced with the fact that you seem to have made a faux pas, but you don’t really understand where. If you’re not comfortable doing that, I would probably just drop it (while sighing and shaking my head about the strangeness of other disciplines).
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Seems legit. I hexxed everyone involved plus my ex boyfriend for good measure 
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I dont think you want to be riding with Trainer B. I think you dodged a bullet.
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Right. And since it was you, IME, that’s a no no. The accepted approach would have been to have Trainer A respond to the ad.
Locally speaking.
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I can speak to this. Some (many? Most? Definitely many of our) trainers get their knickers in a knot if you contact other trainers, sellers, professionals for any reason. So if Trainer A is this knickers-in-a-knot type, trainer B may know this and just said “nope.”
Agree with all of the posters who said that going to trainer A and inquiring first about a similar position, then perhaps an introduction to trainer B would have been a better course.
Is it 100% sane and necessary? Maybe not. But is it the way the game is played? Yes it is.
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So reading this thread sends me back a few years to finding myself at a hunter barn as an eager adult re-rider, I quickly purchased a nice OTTB and restarted him with the trainer - and I have to say that I thought it was just her that was possessive and weirdly tied up in perceived loyalty, but maybe that’s just a hunter thing? I’m relieved I left, and I will never pay someone to tell me what to do/not do (or with whom) ever again.
Toward the end of my relationship with her, I started taking dressage lessons from someone else, and didn’t feel I could tell her. Interestingly, she became increasingly complimentary of my riding at this time. One of the last straws for me was when she was nothing short of furious that I had allowed someone else to ride my horse (it’s my horse?!).
Now, I take lessons with anyone I like, and I don’t have to hide it from current trainer (a dressage/eventing person), because she doesn’t care. My friends ride my horse, and she doesn’t care. I think all horse people are weird, but… I guess hunter people are extra weird. My opinion is… don’t pay someone that believes you should only train with them (and only pay them). Variety is good. You are paying for a service, they should provide that service and not expect unyielding loyalty, especially if someone else has opportunities that they do not.
Sorry this happened, OP. I feel sad for your kid, she’s just excited to ride. Agree that if you like Trainer A, ask if she has an opportunity like this for kid to get more rides in.
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The problem is you approached Trainer B without keeping Trainer A in the loop. The appropriate approach is to talk with Trainer A and say:
“Hey, I’m looking for more opportunities/saddle time/etc for kiddo. I understand you already have “pony pro” kid and can’t offer this to kiddo at this point. However, I saw this ad for Trainer B. Do you think this is something that would be a good fit for kiddo? If so, could you help make the introduction with Trainer B? And if not, is there someone else you know of that might have this type of opportunity available and would be a good fit?”
That is how you keep good relationships with your current trainer while also branching out and advocating for more opportunities for your child. End running the original trainer just looks shady and is 100% the reason Trainer B told you there was a conflict of interest.
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Two thoughts:
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It is fascinating how in my thread about keeping a fox hunter/jumper at home, the overwhelming concensus was “never let a trainer tell you what you can & cannot do!” And here the consensus is “never, ever speak to another trainer yourself”.
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Given the cultural tone of hunterland as presented here in this thread, does anyone really believe that asking their hunter trainer for recommendations for opportunities outside their barn would be fruitful?
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It can absolutely be fruitful.
Good trainers are looking out for their clients, clients horses, and their business. That often means networking and building relationships.
It looks good on a trainer if they can churn out riders who are good enough to catch ride, as long as they’re loyal. Similar to how it looks good when a trainer can produce good sale and lease horses.
Until you’ve been around the block a few times you may not see why certain trainers don’t respect each other. Sometimes it’s over something dumb, sometimes it isn’t.
There are certain trainers local to me who I could call on for coaching at a show if my trainer couldn’t be there, but I would never by a horse from them. The opposite is true as well.
And of course it’s possible that trainer B did feel that pony rider wouldn’t be able to handle the ponies in question.
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Yes. A talented and/or hardworking kid who approaches their trainer and asks what they can do to get more saddle time will absolutely get a response and help. I’ve seen it happen countless times. There was even a good article about Andre Dignelli out recently that talked about this exact concept.
There is a world of difference between fox hunters and hunterland. The biggest is the money involved. Hunterland is a huge business, and trainers are protective of their income. It’s not just about saddle time, you have to think about it as an internship. There’s a right way (or, I should say, more successful way) to approach a professional in a competitive field.
There are still opportunities for ambitious kids willing to work hard. Unfortunately, there are a ton of unspoken rules in hunterland that are not super intuitive but need to be followed in order to get those opportunities. IMO, this is one of the biggest hurdles to encouraging diversity in our sport and giving kids from different backgrounds a leg up. It’s easy to make a faux pas when you don’t know the rules, and then people can be critical or dismissive.
I’m sorry this opportunity didn’t work out. It sounds like you didn’t know showing was involved at first. It’s not apparent whether you want that opportunity for the kid or not. Either way—if you just want her to get some barn time or if you want her to get saddle/show ring time—ask Trainer A.
Finally, I will add that it’s hard to take kids on as barn rats these days. There are more liabilities and restrictions. So the answer if you want her to get some work time may be “no” depending on her age.
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Yes. It can work. As I said, hunter trainers do network within a group of other trainers they find simpatico.
I agree that it’s a weird, controlling environment, but it is what it is. To navigate it “well” involves understanding the culture. The other option is to Reconnoiter to eventing land, which is far less rife with this sort of stuff.
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Frankly, this is what bothers me the most about this. We’re fine. I’ve personally been riding for 40 years, owned a small retirement boarding facility, & professionally managed for others. I’m not going to short list for the Olympics, but I’m also not exactly the bumbling dork I make myself out to be on here. I know what I’m looking at. I don’t trust people lightly with my children’s safety & there have been times I’ve emphatically said “Nope. Not happening,” or even walked away. With few exceptions, I know the general reputations of pros in the area. Because: a) I grew up in the vicinity & b) I have enough horse experience to objectively evaluate & for myself.
It’s the parents who don’t have those advantages that I feel sorry for.
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For a variety of reasons, as I’ve learned in COTH, the true hunter barn is a usually a much more micromanaged program than the other English disciplines. It is also the most expensive in terms of horse cost, showing fees, and trainer input.
From what I can deduce, hunter is heavily a discipline for juniors, and some AA. It is not a World Cup or Olympic stream sport. The “top pros” do show jumping, eventing, or dressage, unless of course they run a hunter barn and need to develop horses.
Because of the strong contingent of juniors, I think, hunters at the competitive levels has evolved to be a trainer-dominated program where trainers show the horses in the open divisions, and then warm them and prep them for the junior or adult ammie rider in the junior or ammie classes.
This is a balancing act that allows 13 year olds and regular ammies with cash to burn to compete on horses that are essentially “too much horse” for them if they were on their own with the horse. Too big, too hot, too sensitive, too delicate. It is a competition-first discipline that is 100 % geared to showing.
Thus the trainer needs students to buy into their program, and be dependent. The student can’t turn up one day wanting to ride with a neck rope like they saw on the internet, or decide to go horse camping for 2 weeks, or decide they want to experiment with cowboy ground work all summer to get more in tune with their horse. I mean all the things we can do on a whim as horse owners, don’t work when you are basically on a competitive team for that barn.
The other disciplines all require more input from the rider. You can’t do dressage above your own riding level, it just won’t happen, and you aren’t even allowed a trainer warmup at a dressage show. Also it’s more adult focused.
Eventing is multi discipline so it’s already built in that you could have 3 coaches for the phases. Also it goes on outside and has a strong British tradition so it’s necessarily DIY.
Fox hunting isn’t even a competition. It’s more like a back country trail ride at speed, which sounds glorious. You have to be able to make decision on your own. Form isn’t micromanaged, no trainer is watching.
And trainers in all disciplines can have antipathy to each other. It’s a tiny community. Who knows?
Trainer x was student of trainer y 15 years ago, and left to start a new barn taking the star clients. Or trainer x is just good friends with the person who did this to trainer y.
Trainer x is married to the ex-husband or boyfriend or wife or girlfriend of trainer y.
Trainer x lied about something to trainer y.
Trainer x thinks trainer y takes shortcuts with the horses, and trainer y knows this. r O
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Or they worked out of the same barn years ago and rubbed each other the wrong way. Or one of them bought a horse the other one wanted by fast talking. Or they both groomed for the same BNT and one got favored, the other fired. Etc etc
Basically anything you can imagine combining the worst of adult human nature, middle school insularity, and horse world wierdness.
Also the smaller the pie, the more people defend their slice of it.
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