I don’t know why there has to be some sinister secret backstory or elaborate ruse. Trainer B found out y’all are with Trainer A and doesn’t think the catch riding is going to work. Why lose any more oxygen worrying about it?
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I’m not particularly worried about it. Child is finally old enough to volunteer at the therapeutic riding center this summer after years of waiting. She’ll enjoy that just as much.
Just found the direction in which the conversation was evolving to be interesting. Ironically, I’m standing here listening to two other parents whispering about sneaking off with a huge block of horses to another astronomically expensive trainer 
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In a knicker knot barn? Nope, not fruitful at all. But there are plenty of trainers that keep their knickers untwisted.
And to be fair, trainer A might not care and trainer B may not even know the potential knot status of trainer A’s knickers, and is just using an abundance of caution
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The part that has confused me is why Trainer B would have even asked to see a video of kid riding if the only way deals for pony riders are made is through the trainers. But perhaps Trainer B thought that child was riding at a lower level/non-show barn. Once Trainer B saw Trainer A in the video, they realized their mistake and thought that they would be poaching a rider from a colleague rather than from some back-yard barn and that’s why they changed their mind.
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Trainer A to Trainer B. 
Parent to Trainer B. 
Parent probably should of asked Trainer A to recommend child to Trainer B?
It’s not the same as being at a show when Trainer B’s pony rider is a no show, so parent of Trainer A offers their kid to catch ride pony… 
Interestingly, in my person experience boarding at two eventing barns with large contingents of serious, upper level AAs, it wasn’t even a case of Sally taking jumping from the resident trainer & hauling out to take dressage. It was arrangements like one horse/rider pair taking lessons from resident trainer (who was legit a genius at riding/coaching all 3 phases), hauling out to take extra dressage & jumping, taking jumping on site with the trainer’s trainer, and hauling out to have yet another trainer with *no business relationship with resident trainer actually ride said horse in events. Or the parent/child jumpers who took jumping with resident trainer & also hauled out weekly to an FEI trainer down the road who had no business relationship with resident trainer.
*By no business relationship, I don’t mean they disliked each other. I mean it in the sense that they may have met each other once or twice in the grocery store & that’s it.
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You might know their general reputations, but this thread is proof that you aren’t on the “inner circle” enough to know the ins and outs of their relationships.
And you’ll never find out if you ask questions on coth instead of running it by your trainer.
You might be reading way to far into it, you might not.
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Nor do I want to be. We’re here to ride in my household.
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There’s been an immediate assumption by the hunter people responding in this thread that we’re people who run in “those circles”. We don’t. Neither does either trainer in question or basically anyone we know. We can afford to hit a local show every other weekend during the summer & 1-2 A rated shows a year. Fairly certain I’ve never so much as caught a glimpse of Andre Dignelli & don’t foresee that changing.
Daughter knows who these people are, knows what a “real” catch rider for hunters does. She also knows that is an extremely unrealistic goal because it requires a tremendous level of financial privilege to even get to a place where a rider would be noticed. She’s perfectly content to “catch ride” by volunteering when someone yells “Can anyone ride my horse in the hack?!” at a local schooling show. We’re extraordinary fortunate that we can do any of this and that brings me tremendous joy as a parent. I can scrape together enough for 1 or 2 qualifiers & one trip to Pony Finals. I can scrape together $8k in a hurry for a lease, even though other folks laughed/pitied us. It causes the occasional sleepless night worrying about $, but I can. I know so many families that can’t even afford a month of lessons at an up-down barn.
I should start another thread on this point because this is a tangent: What seems to be forgetten is that for a hardworking, talented rider to even get to a place where they might cross paths with Andre Dignelli. It assumes a child with a family with the means to: 1) lease or buy at least one high-quality animal to start with, afford several years of 2+ weekly lessons at $75 a pop, and several A and AA shows a year in addition to 1 or 2 locals a weekend for practice. The same way the Gochman grant isn’t a grant for true financial need. It’s for people who demonstrate financial need relative to folks like the Gochmans and Fuquas. It takes a lot of money to get to the point of competently coursing a minimum of 2’3" – usually buying/leasing a pony because lesson programs (rightfully) don’t let their lesson string jump over 2’ . If you can even find a program that has lesson horses anymore.
Whenever I go to an IEA show I see some talented, hard-working kids busting their a$$es to ride some pretty ornery horses that have had it with the whole thing by the 2nd class. And the kids are managing to do it despite getting maybe one up-down lesson a week from a coach that belongs on the Daily Dumb thread. Still, they have a 1 in 1,000,000 shot of ever making it to a spot where Andre Dignelli might notice them.
There are no Kareem Rosser stories in hunterland. I suspect that this is a big part of the dumbing down of American riding.
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There absolutely are. The Chronicle and the Plaid Horse have begun trying to highlight more of them in (rightful) recognition that are sport is very white and can be very exclusionary. But that doesn’t mean those stories are nonexistent, and comments like that make it harder for POC to be seen and heard in our community. Here’s one example: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/life-as-a-black-equestrian
Here is the link to the Andre Dignelli article I mentioned: https://www.theplaidhorse.com/2021/03/10/ask-andre-for-aspiring-riders-how-do-you-break-through-from-the-local-circuit-to-the-big-stage/
Patricia Griffith, who is one his top trainers, very much came from the local circuit. It’s still possible, albeit very difficult, to do so. And as Andre mentions in the article, doing so doesn’t involve necessarily crossing paths with him at a show. It involves reaching out and making contact.
When I was an aspiring pro fresh from a junior career that was entirely on local circuits, I also reached out to A/AA barns for working student and training opportunities. I was able to land several, including paid positions. These jobs are not unattainable or only available to the very wealthy (I was not). They are still available for those who seek them out. Many trainers did not come from means, and many will try to help those from similar backgrounds if they can.
Our sport absolutely needs to grapple with questions of privilege and access. Yes, it’s possible to make it to the top without much means, but it’s exceedingly difficult, involves some measure of luck, and involves knowing those unwritten rules I mentioned in my previous comment.
But this is slightly off-topic from the original point. And I will add you seem to take some measure of pride in not being part of the h/j community. That’s a shame. Our sport has a lot of work to do, but I don’t think it’s been dumbed down.
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From this quote I can see why you asked the question. If does feel hinky.
I’m sorry your daughter didn’t get the barn with riding work, but I’m glad she’s volunteering! I think barn work is a great way for kids to learn lots of skills.
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I agree with @LilRanger - I can understand how you got drawn into this conversation, and also why it feels hinky. But the truth is you will never quite know Trainer B’s reasoning - all you can do is take it at face value and move on.
Your daughter will learn so much volunteering at the rescue - horsemanship skills that will help her, and get her access to horses, for the rest of her life. I hope she has a great summer and still finds chances to ride.
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@TheDBYC I would have done the same thing as you, but I event. Are you sure the kid doesn’t want to try eventing? I find the political side of this pretty ridiculous. You were replying to an ad for pretty much a groom, with maybe a ride here and there, but apparently since the kid is taking lessons with Trainer A she can’t even do that. Honestly, I think I’d opt to move on to Trainer C if she really wants to keep doing Hunters. I don’t think it was a “conflict of interest” so much of just Conflict. They probably just don’t get along.
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I’ll chime in with a situation that happened in my SoCal riding life. Really good riding kid was a client with Trainer 1 for years. Was beginning to shop a little as a move up from the lease that the kid had between retiring her old show mount. Kid was an awesome shower and started to catch ride at Thermal/ other large West Coast shows whilst horse shopping. Started to catch ride a lot for Trainer 2.
Kid buys horse from Trainer 2 and parents and kid decide that Trainer 2 has the right show connections and future horse connections that Trainer 1 does not.
Kid now rides very competitively with Trainer 2 and hasn’t spoken to Trainer 1 in a year or so, besides accepting congrats after beating Trainer 1 clients in most classes riding under Trainer 2. 
That’s probably why, though you will never exactly know.
Lessons under another trainer (especially under a different discipline, Dressage, Eventing) is one thing. Developing a showing relationship is a whole other business conflict.
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Catch riding under these sorts of arrangements can be overrated anyway. Unless your kid is tippee top skill level, it’s going to be a lot of pressure/frustration and probably not more fun than it’s worth. When you catch ride, you’re expected to go in there and LAY IT DOWN every time. No “I’m having a bad day” or “feel like scratching because of the rain” or anything like that. When your kid wins, everyone will say it was the horse. When your kid loses, it’s her fault and the trainer/owner are mad. Ponies that need a ride often have some… flaw… and your kid gets the be the test dummy for it and/or develop fear/defensiveness in her own riding that can carry over. Unless people are asking YOU for your kid to catch ride, odds are these won’t be 6 figure perfect hunters that make HER look good and are easy peasy. This is always more of a slog than it seems from the outside.
Which is not to say there aren’t benefits. For some kids, it’s how they make their way. But it sounds like your kid has other better opportunities and doesn’t need the hassle of all of this. Because if you don’t like drama, catch riding is not for you. You catch ALL the drama along with the rides.
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Very well said and true!
I’d agree if the cash is there to pay your way in horses at a level that makes you happy, then that’s the best way to proceed in most situations.
I have yet to see a working student or barn help or groom job that advanced the rider faster than if they were paying their own way; indeed, circumstances often make such positions exploitative even if that’s not the intent.
Obviously such positions can be a wonderful opportunity for a kid who cannot otherwise afford to be around horses. But if you can afford to pay for horse and lessons for your kid, that’s the route to go.
At some point for some older teens or young adults, it might make sense to go from a middling level riding situation to be a WS or groom for a true BNT. It would get them access to a whole other tier of competition. But I would be surprised if that automatically translated to a lot of riding at that level.
I would in general steer clear of work/ride trades at lower level barns unless you truly can’t afford to pay your way, or the situation is exceptionally generous.
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I 100% agree with this.
From what I’ve seen, most barns offering these ‘groom/working student with possible riding’ positions are not offering learning or riding opportunities. They’re looking for underpaid or free grooms, and the ‘occasional ride’ is used as a justification for not paying fair compensation.
It is so, so easy to have theses arrangements become exploitative or dangerous. Most of your time will be spent grooming horses so other people can hop on and ride them (either the trainer or lesson kids). There is a good chance you’ll be asked periodically to handle the trainer’s young or rank horses that most clients won’t touch. If you’re over 18, this may include screaming breeding stallions. You may be used as a free fill-in when the barn is short staffed for a day, and may spend quite a bit of time mucking stalls rather than handling horses. Or, you may be asked to catch and hold horses for the farrier or the vet. The ‘riding opportunity’ usually comes up once or twice a month, and it’s either getting on the trainer’s back burner horse when they have a schedule change and suddenly can’t ride it that day, or getting on a lesson pony who is misbehaving and re-schooling them to go in the corners or stop refusing.
Obviously there are good working student positions that give great opportunities and teach kids lots, but this is what I have observed and experienced at high-level but not BNT barns. You will learn far more by spending an extra hour with your own pony every week than doing one of those ‘working student’ positions.
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@Ruth0552, she wants to go to Pony Finals one time and then plans to switch to jumpers. I thought that wise – give her a chance to really develop her eye for distances, etc & a solid eq foundation. I am pleased with how things have turned out. She is a far more quiet, sympathetic rider than I was at 14. And knock on wood & praying I don’t jinx her, she’s pinned 1st or 2nd in every equitation class she’s ever entered. Plus, objectively speaking, there isn’t much around here eventing or jumping-wise until the kids hit their early teens. We’re finally getting there.
And honestly? It isn’t just money or riding culture. I’m caucasian, my children are bi-racial. Daughter got extremely upset with a lot of what she was seeing on the social media feeds of many of the AA circuit juniors and trainers over the past year or two. Unbeknownst to me, a pair of juniors from our barn were making fun of people of daughter’s father’s ethnicity while she was carpooling with them. (Daughter looks caucasian and no one at Trainer A’s barn has met her father.) Based on our discussions about all this, all of that was the last straw for her. I realize there are jerks to be encountered in all walks of the industry. Still, for someone who is biracial or a POC in an area like ours where a number of the top riders in the world are based, it would be hard not to look around and notice that the jumpers, eventers. polo guys, and even dressage riders resemble a UN security council meeting compared to the hunters. A number of them even look like you. And most of the ones that don’t aren’t running around saying stuff that would’ve raised eyebrows in the 1970s on their Instagram or to your face .
@outside_leg, what Andre is saying in that article perfectly illustrates my point: “We were the ones at the shows with the bad braids we did ourselves and the ill-fitting show clothes…” He. Was. Still. At. The. Show. He had a horse upon which to inflict his questionable braiding skills. He had the family means to lesson on said horse, to buy his ill-fitted, single purpose clothes and equipment, to drive him to the barn, to drive to shows and pay for meals and lodging (Even the Motel 6 adds up over a week.) And so on.
He’s about 7 years older than me, iirc. I am roughly the same age as the assistant trainers he talks about. As several people correctly noted upthread, things are very different now. Kids hanging around a barn are a huge liability issue now. In 1989, when I was my daughter’s age, and a “junior working student” at a huge, chaotically run lesson barn, I stood in front of the barn office on evening with the lead rope of a dangerously overheated lesson horse in one hand, the hose blasting in the other, and office phone clenched between chin and shoulder, hoping the overstretched cord wouldn’t boomerang it back into the building as I relayed info about the horse to the head trainer/ barn manager (she was on a business trip): “Yeah, ok. Sounds like you’ve got a handle on this. I trust your judgement. Call me back if his temp doesn’t come down soon.” Meanwhile, that evening’s manager and the only adult present – Claudio, The New Guy from Argentina --needed my detailed instructions to navigate the Byzantine logistics of getting 80 horses into their correct fields for the night turnout. None of us – 14yo me, head trainer, Claudio, or even my generally worrywart city-slicker parents – thought this scenario remotely vexing. Nowadays, your liability insurance carrier wants you to check your 14yo student’s girths. I wanted to apprentice in Germany when I graduated. Had no contacts there. Probably could’ve pulled it off back then. Could’ve likely finagled my way into one of the BNT hunter barns with no show record whatsoever on the sheer virtue of being able to ride anything and my mad barn management skillz. Those kinds of chances are basically nonexistent now.
I don’t want to diminish the young lady in the first article’s courage and determination in the face of some pretty sh–ty behavior from adults and peers who ought to be ashamed of themselves. Very different story than that of Kareem Rosser, though.
Eta: I teach two subjects (music & yoga) where the emphasis is on facilitating the student’s Iindependent journey. It is very much expected and encouraged for the student to seek out the tools they need along the way. And it is acknowledged that seldom will one teacher offer everything that is needed. As the teacher, I’m there to serve the student. And the only way I can be as a teacher that is sustainable long-term is to be my authentic self. Strengths & weaknesses included.
*** I’m using me as an example here, but any of my colleagues would do the same as it is simply the standard for professional care & conduct in our field***:
I have no issue with a student taking lessons occasionally or even regularly with someone else. It is common & healthy. They do not need my permission to seek out opportunities to better themselves. Who knows them better than they do? Who am I to try to dictate to them what they need? Their guitar teacher might make a suggestion regarding their singing in a lesson. I might make a suggestion about their guitar playing. When a student is cast in a show, goes to camp, leaves for college; someone else is directing them & I relinquish all control over what goes on. That’s ok. It’s good. It’s all part of their journey.
One of my best students moved on to a new teacher. It was sad, but not wholly unexpected. ( Imo, we’d reached a place where our patterns as student/teacher were likely to start hindering her progress.) She wrote inviting me & the kids to see her in a show a year later. We went, gave her flowers backstage afterwards, and her mom & I had an ugly cry together because we both knew how hard she had worked to arrive at this moment where she sounded so flipping amazing. (She was born with an aural processing disorder. Even her doctors were amazed she could sing at all, let alone well enough to win national level competitions & eventually get cast in off Broadway shows .) Some come back in the summer or years later after graduation. They could teach me now, rather than the opposite. 
They still come back.
Over the years, I’ve had students express worry about hurting my feelings leaving me after getting the opportunity to study with seriously famous, well-connected performers. My response has always been, “Are you kidding? I’d go study with XYZ person, too!” One student chose as their applied voice professor someone who was a galactically huge a$$ to me in undergrad & every time I’ve crossed paths with them since. To this day, that student has no clue that I have a personal dislike of that professor. That student is now on tv. Another went on to make the chorus at the Met. Would any of these things have happened for them if I had tried to dictate what opportunities they could & could not take? I don’t think so. And I make my livelihood off of coaching, same as a riding coach.
That’s the mindset that I’m coming from. I can see why it may sound like I take pride in not being part of the hunter community, although that is not my intention. It’s just a dissonance of pedagogical norms for me.
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As the mother of a teenage musician (French horn being his primary instrument), I get your thought process. He has had several teachers, all happy to lead him to whatever person will help the most for whatever skill set he needs to develop. Often times, this is not true in horse world, hunterland in particular, but I’ve seen it more and more in dressageland too. Sad, frustrating, but reality. At 14, helping at the local therapeutic riding center, otoh, is wonderful and a great future resume builder for scholarships when she’s older. So I see this all as a win-win for you and your daughter.
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