How Would You Interpret This Comment?

[McGurk]

@TheDBYC,

With respect (that’s not sarcasm, you are clearly an intelligent, rational, reasonable person) you may be overthinking this a tad.

I don’t think you’ve committed some grave faux pas which will cause other hunter trainers to shun you. I think what you did was fine. We’ll never know what Trainer B’s reservation was - maybe Trainer B screwed Trainer A over on a horse deal and Trainer B is righteously nervous about close association. I just think that in the future, you’d be better served by approaching Trainer A first. That’s all.

As for all your wonderful stories about your students, I have a lot of the same stories about my mentors and students in hunterland. My first mentor absolutely found me other jobs and horses to ride. When she felt I had outgrown her program, she encouraged to start my own barn and sent me lots of business to get me going. We traded students back and forth for years. I had another mentor who took me along with her and introduced me to her instructor, a v. big name, so I could start working with them and continue to grow.

On my own, I sent students and clients to other professionals that I thought were better fits frequently. In one case, a wonderful client with three horses on full board - they had outgrown my program, they wanted to show in the As, and show every weekend. I recommended another barn and facilitated the introduction and the transition and was very happy for their continued success. New barn/trainer always gave me credit for giving them a good foundation in my program.

The only one that was sticky was a kid who hadn’t outgrown my program, but thought she was a lot more advanced than she was. But we reached a point that because of her belief, I was no longer an effective instructor for her, so I found another situation for her.

My point is, hunterland is not La Cosa Nostra. Weird and insular, sure, but there’s nothing sinister. (Or shouldn’t be. If there is, get the hell out.) Trainer/student relationships are more formalized than in dressage or eventing. It’s just a courtesy to discuss your plans with whom you’re currently working with; but it’s not an edict and the transgression is not punishable by shunning.

Best of luck to you as you advocate for your pony jockey.

[TheDBYC]

@McGurk, which part am I over-thinking? I ried to delineate that I was wading out from the original question into the more generalized & theoretical. Probably better to have made a new thread. However, someone commented that I seemed to take pride in bashing the industry or being an outsider. I thought that comment worth addressing.

Your examples of the framework for coaching still differ from my own in that: 1) in the music industry sees student initiative as proof of hunger for success. Yes, we may sometimes refer a student to a person or program. They are mostly expected to seek out and knock on those doors on their own, and 2) No one but you can be expected to put your best interests first or know you better than you know yourself. How do I as an under-performing student determine if I’m delusional about my ability or if I’m being held back in some way by an instructor (be it consciously or unconsciously) without seeking an unbiased 2nd or 3rd opinion?

[McGurk]

@TheDBYC,

First of all, it’s overthinking when you start a thread asking how to interpret a comment when the simplest interpretation was the correct one - Trainer B felt it would be a conflict of interest. Then the overthinking was that it was a covert message that your kid’s riding wasn’t good enough.

That’s all been asked, answered and thoroughly covered earlier in the thread.

Now the overthinking is that that the conventions in hunterland vs. jumping, dressage or eventing MEAN something, and that what they mean is something negative about hunters. It’s different, we all agree it’s different. But it doesn’t have to mean something negative.

Finally, these comments:

There are no Kareem Rosser stories in hunterland.

and

I suspect that this is a big part of the dumbing down of American riding.

On the first point, you don’t know that, because you haven’t actually looked for the Kareem Rosser stories in hunterland. They are there, I can give you a half dozen examples. Yes, it’s a sport for the elite, and it’s slightly more possible to buy a horse that makes a weak rider look good in hunters than other disciplines. Yes, the money spent at the top is literally breathtaking. But talented riders with limited resources manage to rise through the ranks because of their own perserverance, hunger, mentoring by other professionals and some lucky breaks. As they always have.

In my own, very small way, I’m proof. I did not come from money or a horsey family. I showed exactly twice as a junior, at “C” shows on a leased school horse and I was not the tinest bit competitive. But somehow, as a adult professional, I made a modest career and a modest living out of it.

And I’m not sure how your second statement connects to the first. The hunters HAVE been dumbed down, absolutely, and depending on who you talk to, so have the eventers. But I don’t think the dumbing down has anything to do with privlege and accessiblity, I think it has to do with other, bigger societal changes.

If shows stopped offering hunter classes below 3’ again; who do you think would be affected? The Gochmans? Betsee Parker? Or the kid who shows a leased school horse?

[TheDBYC]

@McGurk, if I hadn’t asked, I would not have been clued in to the fact that it was considered something of a faux pas to approach another trainer in any context.

Ok. Hit me with the Kareem Rosser stories. I don’t mind being proven wrong. It would make me feel better, in fact.

[McGurk]

Start here:

Junior Johnson Is Still Moving Forward

Ask Laurie Pitts on this forum for other details or the story.

Clem Clements, now Junior’s business parter, is another kid with talent that Frances Rowe “adopted” and fostered his career even though he never had a big horse or a big wallet.

Junior’s son, D.J., came up working along side his father and has a successful local/regional barn.

Joe Fargis was a pony catch rider at Jane Marshall Dillon’s Junior Equitation School, then went to Frances Rowe’s at 18 before starting his own place with Conrad Holmfeld.

Debbie Hoffman was a local rider/instructor/boarding barn manager when she bought a gangly yearling, sired by the stallion standing next door. Here’s an article about him:

A Look Back: Mind Games 1985 AHSA Working Hunter Horse of the Year — Over The...

What the article doesn’t tell you is that Debbie braided her way around the A-circuit to pay his way.

Another rider mentioned in this article, Eric Dirks (not the dressage Eric Dierks) was a local eq whiz kid/barn rat/catch rider who made his horse showing money by braiding. After graduating college, he decided to give riding a try rather than teaching. He enjoyed a long career as a rider; and now is a judge. But he didn’t start with a fancy horse and a big budget either.

Oh, sorta different discipline, and the hunt has since ceased operations, but Melvin Johnson (no relation to Junior and DJ) was a professional whipper in for Casanova Hunt for forever. He’s the only AA professional hunt staff that I know of; and a charming gentleman. He still officiates at race meetings and looks like a million bucks.

https://issuu.com/horsecountrypost/docs/february_-_march_2013/29 Page 3, top left.

That’s all I’ve got for now, but there are many, many more.

[TheDBYC]

Are you familiar with Kareem Rosser’s story?

[McGurk]

Yes.

[TheDBYC]

Then I think you’ll acknowledge that the folks you mentioned, while inspiring, aren’t exactly apples to apples comparisons. I’m not arguing that a story like that of Rosser and his brother isn’t rarer than hen’s teeth in any equestrian discipline. Of course it is. I’m simply saying that of all disciplines, I feel the odds would be stacked the worst in hunters.

[McGurk]

I’m cheating. I know these people and not from their books.

You’ll have to take my word for it that some of these stories, Junior Johnson’s in particular, have a GREAT deal in common with Kareem Rosser’s. A great deal.

If Kareem hadn’t found the Work to Ride program, his life would have been very, very different.

If Junior’s father hadn’t worked for Francis Rowe, if he hadn’t been exposed to the sport at a very early age, and encouraged in spite of the overt racism he encountered, if he hadn’t been mentored by Kenny Wheeler and sponsored by Karen Reed…

This is pointless. You’ve had an experience that soured you on the hunters and the way hunter barns operate. I get it.

But challenging me to provide you with a feel good story that meets your standard of the hunters being redeemable is not going to make you feel better about your bad experience.

I hesitated to post what I did, fearing I was revealing too much about the people I used as examples and too much about myself.

If you decide the hunters are not for you, so be it. ALL horse sports are elitist and classist; and all are very hard worlds to break into, especially if you’re broke and especially if you’re a POC. It can be done, has been done and will continue to be done.

Good luck in your future endeavors, and please do report back on how you find the show jumping, dressage or eventing worlds. Or western events.

[TheDBYC]

@McGurk, I thought you were semi-familiar enough from interacting with me here to know that I participate/have participated in several of the “worlds” you mention. Regardless, I got my initial question answered and had some interesting discussions as offshoots and don’t wish to muddy up the thread with my personal feelings. Because they are just that. And not of much use to others.

But you don’t know that I don’t know Kareem Rosser

[trubandloki]

@TheDBYC

I thought you were semi-familiar enough from interacting with me here to know that I participate/have participated in several of the “worlds” you mention.

I don’t know how @McGurk reads the forum but I know that I can spend a whole thread writing back and forth with someone and not know that I am dealing with that same poster in the next thread. I some what intentionally do not pay attention to who posted (though I do like to realize I am reading something by the original poster, whoever they are in a specific thread) and I suck at remembering names.
So maybe you have interacted with McGurk before, that does not mean they have memorized the details of your life.

Here are my thoughts on the hunter world - In the part of the world I live in hunter lesson barns are plentiful. All levels of instruction from barns I would be scared to send anyone to ride at to barns that travel down to warm climates in the winter to have their riders continue competing. The great thing about the hunter world is that it allows people to be introduced to riding in a way that does not require a huge commitment (financial or time). Hunter barns with lesson strings allow the most beginner person to climb on a horse and learn. They allow those that want to experience showing to go to lesson horse focused horse shows. Even not liking the thought that some trainers hold onto their riders like they are losing a family member does not make me not like the whole hunter thing because of all the good it does for the horse industry, and people having access to it.
Liability has done away with most of the ‘rent a horse to trail ride’ establishments. There are lots of threads here on COTH about how hard it is to find a dressage or eventing oriented barn with lesson horses. Hate on hunters all you want but they do good…

[Scribbler]

I agree, much of what an independent adult ammie might find stifling about some hunter programs is due to the fact that the sport has developed as the default junior discipline. Like all children’s sports, organized around teams and competition and levels to give parents and children a sense of progress, which requires directive coaching to get ribbons. Few children ride dressage with focus and outside of Pony Club, there may be relatively fewer eventers too.

As far as knowing who posters are, sometimes a penny drops and I realize this is the same person who said something last month, and I check to verify. But I don’t know what past experience or current level anyone is at until they are explicit.

And in relation to recent comments above, there’s no correlation between your level and who you know or what you know in terms of social facts. You could be a happy adult beginner but the cousin of an Olympic contender, you could have groomed for a BNT 20 years ago, blown out your knee, and retired to keeping a mini on the back yard. You could be a very accomplished competitor who has never been introduced to the top stars. You could be an avid reader of rge COTH magazine and watch a lot of online horse shows and have a complete picture in your head, like folks that follow team sports. Etc.

Or you could live in Canada where we will never run across American BNT and dont tend to think about them unless we are at the level of competing in the US.

[GoodTimes]

And it can depend when you knew someone as well.

As an example.
In my little hometown there are two barns who show. They do compete with each other for new students, but one is primarily h/j and the other is primarily eventing, so no real poaching per se.
In theory one could learn a lot from riding with trainer A and also grooming/catch riding one day/wk from trainer B without worry of switching programs (since that would probably mean a discipline switch).
The reason that doesn’t happen is because 20 years ago Trainer B needed to borrow a trailer, had a mare in labour, needed surgery, etc. Trainer B was new to the area, had just sold an older trailer and hadn’t picked up the new one yet, beyond awful timing. Trainer A refused to lend trailer since Trainer B was a total stranger, was worried about insurance, middle of the night, etc. Unfortunately the mare and foal both died.
No one talks about it. Anyone who wasn’t at either of those barns at the time probably doesn’t know this story.
Trainer A and B are both professional, so in the OPs scenario they would probably just give a similar simple vague response like “conflict of interest”.

[Pennywell_Bay]

It is more prevalent in hunters, IMO, because there are generally more hunter type barns than eventing or dressage etc. I’m in an area with eventing barns, and those trainers- though flexible for clinics etc and cross training in SJ and dressage, definitely don’t like their students going to other trainers.

My kid and I are in a situation where we ride with 2 excellent pros that show in GP, but neither live particularly close. We keep our horses at home This was set up with full discussion with my “main” trainer. If both trainers are at a show, I show with Trainer A. He knows me, he knows my horse best. If he isn’t going to a show I show with Trainer B. A and B are not “friends” but cordial, professional and B talked to A when I approached him. I had already talked to A about it and he thought it was a good fit (when he isn’t around).

I’m lucky with that situation. But I had talked to Trainer A about it. He agreed. I talked to B, he was hesitant but after chatting with A is all in. Not to be a jerk- it helps that I have a nice horses and we generally don’t embarrass anyone ha ha.

To throw it even more odd- there is a Trainer C who gives my kid a chance to groom, ride and “school” the lesson horses and basically be a barn rat, which the other 2 don’t have that availability. C is a lower level person that has A in for clinics and has lessoned with B. Kiddo also helps at the local Pony Club barn tacking up horses for lessons. (yes- I am exhausted from all my driving around…)

It helps that I am a “lay it on the table” person. I don’t talk about the other trainers except positive things, no gossip etc. I will say “we are working on this”. I am also fortunate because the trainer’s instruction styles are similar (not how they teach but their methods). So I am not getting conflicting instruction, which can be a HUGE problem for people who are attempting to ride with multiple people.

My point- these situations can work. I get great instruction and rides from A and B, but I will always be appreciative of C- who is giving my kid a chance to ride multiple horses, do some work and be a proverbial barn rat.

[BITSA]

I think that would be a hard situation because trainers are mostly territorial of clients. Kind of a faux as. I wouldn’t think it has anything to do with the kid.

[Halternatively]

The more I read the OP’s responses on this thread, the more I think it’s less about the trainers having a conflict of interest with each other. Even the OP isn’t buying it, and has gone out of her way to illustrate why it doesn’t make sense as a plausible answer.

I’m wondering if the OP isn’t more angry that despite any possible conflict, her kid should still have been given the opportunity. She mentions that both trainer A and B have pony pro catch riders - maybe she thinks her kid is as good or better than these kids? Maybe she thinks her kid is so talented that any conflict should be overcome? IDK, I’m just getting a whiff of us missing the point, and maybe she thinks trainers A and B are as well?

[TheDBYC]

@Halternatively

I’m wondering if the OP isn’t more angry that despite any possible conflict, her kid should still have been given the opportunity. She mentions that both trainer A and B have pony pro catch riders - maybe she thinks her kid is as good or better than these kids? Maybe she thinks her kid is so talented that any conflict should be overcome? IDK, I’m just getting a whiff of us missing the point, and maybe she thinks trainers A and B are as well?

I don’t know Trainer B beyond knowing “of” them, if that makes sense. I’m not sure who they currently have catch riding their horses. I’ve seen them advertising in the past looking specifically for a pony show rider. However, the ad in question made no mention of the same. Imo, daughter is a good rider, but not of the same level of Trainer A’s catch rider.

I aim (and hopefully achieve the majority of the time) for transparency & harmony as @Pennywell_Bay describes it. Daughter’s trainers have always been aware that I ride. (Trainer A has never actually seen me ride but is well aware I do) And I am upfront about the fact I mostly try to keep my riding separate from daughter’s whenever possible. (We ride different styles, and I also see value in her having her own thing to enjoy.) Daughter did take lessons from my eventing trainer for a few months in between her first trainer closing & coming in to Trainer A’s program. Trainer A was informed of that up front. I’ll help out as needed - mucking out the trailer, assisting little kids tack up at shows, etc. Mostly, I sit on the sidelines & take bad videos that should be an ad for Pivo and bring wine & dessert to shows.

[SCI]

To me it sounds like Trainer B doesn’t want to step on Trainer A’s toes and make it seem like they are poaching their client. If child is still planning to ride with Trainer A while also catch riding, then the appropriate thing to do would be to tell Trainer A that the child would like to start catch riding. Trainer A could then make contact with other trainers to see if they have anything that needs a rider. Trainer A is the one most familiar with the child’s abilities and could help find “safe and appropriate” catch rides. The way the situation was handled, it seems like the parents went behind Trainer A’s back to try to arrange something.

[Scribbler]

Ah, I just responded to a post from jlm0305 saying they found hunters over controlling and it went poof before I hit post. Letting my post stand though.

Probably because hunters is overwhelmingly a junior discipline and a lot of attitudes come out of being a program designed for middle school girls.

Those are the kinds of places that feel they need rules that everyone must ride in breeches and a top with sleeves to forestall the girl who turns up in bikini tops and cutoffs. Or that they need to police hair styles so that parents don’t think there are too many rowdy bad rebellious girls at the barn.

Also the amount of control by trainers in regard to horse care and riding.

It would drive me bonkers and yes, when I was 15 I rode in bikini tops and cutoffs in summer (though Western so no pinching from leathers).

But all programs designed for kids including school seem to be micromanaged.