Hunter riders lying on their horses necks while looking down over the jumps?

[QUOTE=MHM;7600406]
What GP riders are you watching??

There are some like Beezie and McLain who do usually maintain excellent form. There are plenty of others who exhibit the drunken monkey style, which seems to work well for them if they are leaving the rails up. But there is a wide variety of styles on display in the GP ring. Just like all the other rings.[/QUOTE]

Even that is something, there is NO variety in the hunters. Every rider looks the same. Perhaps some duck lower and some throw their legs back farther, but they all look the same. It’s a fad and it doesn’t make the horse look good. Like I originally said, not the reason I’m here, my opinion doesn’t matter and my riding of a hunter wouldn’t measure up anyhow.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7600441]
Even that is something, there is NO variety in the hunters. Every rider looks the same. Perhaps some duck lower and some throw their legs back farther, but they all look the same. [/QUOTE]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_3x3yu9o4ILeOBFyHuskGxWQX48CYZ9BBHiv_G_PHttmqh6v5jw

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYNXYkFX4ekZrz7CTWOMMkK0LG1mtIU7BSdjpBDe8zsVkmi4Dg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRn2hRtGqba4oP9wAUSQAriIZFPg0_IdWfd_4BhlR1WzOU4iaR7fA

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRutdyT0h8xUPeIzdk3O9z36FIMdFFZQ5M6-RdsbLvI-FBLa0qW

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNKWeVpbSQsZSZnCnunmw9C0zdnL8TY1KgQXvAzw9b6_CPJa9N

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtbvZ7cysZJTaYAV_h_3wELWbBcCWSmXA0w8dRfdPJYVwSigpL

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shemovedtotexas.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2F13281251373_9b0d6170c5_c-e1395344934824.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shemovedtotexas.com%2Fwef-the-10-hunter%2F&h=386&w=658&tbnid=zgspy44OwYepSM%3A&zoom=1&docid=JmR7R0SOcSRpiM&ei=AJSIU673L9CbqAatqoLgBA&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CJMBEDMoNjA2&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1566&page=5&start=43&ndsp=12

[QUOTE=MHM;7600406]
What GP riders are you watching??

There are some like Beezie and McLain who do usually maintain excellent form. There are plenty of others who exhibit the drunken monkey style, which seems to work well for them if they are leaving the rails up. But there is a wide variety of styles on display in the GP ring. Just like all the other rings.[/QUOTE]

Yeah…like that Rich Fellers. His “form” is horrible.

Oh, wait…didn’t he win the World Cup a couple of years ago?

:lol:

sigh

You clearly did not read my initial post.

So random question about form for the rider…

With the positions we are talking about, up on the horses neck, butt out of the saddle, wouldn’t leaning all that weight on the neck of a horse block the front end and prevent them from really using themselves and being neat and square?

[QUOTE=cswoodlandfairy;7600679]
So random question about form for the rider…

With the positions we are talking about, up on the horses neck, butt out of the saddle, wouldn’t leaning all that weight on the neck of a horse block the front end and prevent them from really using themselves and being neat and square?[/QUOTE]

when I think about horses who really jump well, its seems to be all about the hind end. If the horse can rock back and really power off the ground with the hind end, that is what will allow them to have good form upfront.

However, yes a poor ride can unbalance the horse and affect form.

But with many warmblood hunters out there way over 1200lbs and many of the top female pro hunter riders at about 10% of their mount’s weight I believe it would be difficult for them to unbalance them just with a position that is slightly more out of the saddle.

IMO At lower levels with lower jumps the horses can just compensate.

But I’m sure there are people on here with more knowledge than me who can better answer your question and I too am curious to hear what they have to say.

Thump, thump, thump…

(This is the sound of a dead horse being beaten) :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=cswoodlandfairy;7600679]
So random question about form for the rider…

With the positions we are talking about, up on the horses neck, butt out of the saddle, wouldn’t leaning all that weight on the neck of a horse block the front end and prevent them from really using themselves and being neat and square?[/QUOTE]
No. By the time the rider is in full release the front end is at its apex. Holding that release down through the first stride enables the front to pose a hair at the top, then the back end to finish, and the neck to stretch down into the first step. Staying down with the momentum of a round, hard jump takes a ton of core strength and is a lot easier if you can get yourself as low to the horse as possible to follow the neck down. You never want the backside of the arc or the first stride to shorten in the hunter ring.

I feel like I’m at a tennis match watching the ball bounce back and forth. I have to admit it’s interesting, and I can see both sides.

I won’t argue against what pros do on the Wow horses. As Angelico pointed out, it’s not like they’re falling off left and right and the horses do jump well, so something must be working.

But I think I’m not alone when I say lower level hunter riders could desire to look more like this (Image), appearing secure, correct, and still present a lovely picture for horse and rider. The rider is not impeding her horse’s jump whatsoever, yet her classic position is independent, safe and effective. Why can’t this style be more prevalent in the 2’6" level, so that riders may be served well if they go on to do other disciplines like eq, jumpers, or eventing?

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7600281]
I’ve never seen event riders use that style of riding, so that probably says something.[/QUOTE]

SnickelfritzG I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with this. Having competed both 3’6 hunters and prelim level eventing (same and different horses) they are two completely different jobs and personally I think its pointless to compare the two. You may look at a photo of me over a 3’6 hunter jump and attack my form and act like I can’t ride at all, but I can just as easily sit up and balance to a big drop on the exact same horse in the cross country field. As many have pointed out all ready a good rider is able to adjust their ride for the horse/discipline they are in, just like watching the difference between Tori Colvin in the hunters and the jumpers.

[QUOTE=20Sporty04;7600773]
SnickelfritzG I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with this. Having competed both 3’6 hunters and prelim level eventing (same and different horses) they are two completely different jobs and personally I think its pointless to compare the two. You may look at a photo of me over a 3’6 hunter jump and attack my form and act like I can’t ride at all, but I can just as easily sit up and balance to a big drop on the exact same horse in the cross country field. As many have pointed out all ready a good rider is able to adjust their ride for the horse/discipline they are in, just like watching the difference between Tori Colvin in the hunters and the jumpers.[/QUOTE]

But you have an open mind and aren’t bashing either discipline. =)

The people saying the riders are tired, its too hard to ride right on a horse that jumps that good, get on a do it better etc I think are missing the point. Yes poor form happens, some horses are hard to follow with etc I do get that, I get that it is all about how the horse looks, but why should we be satisfied with “well yeah I look like crap but look at the horse!” Shouldn’t we all (including pros) be working to be the best we can? Why settle for looking sloppy? Just because it is “ok”? Is every rider going to be perfect? No not even the pros but I do think they can be better without hurting the horses form. Can I go out there and do that right now? No way, but I would expect the best to really look and ride the best. I don’t think people who don’t like the style are saying “OMG they SUCK” just that they could have better form, and be the complete package.

[QUOTE=20Sporty04;7600773]
SnickelfritzG I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with this. Having competed both 3’6 hunters and prelim level eventing (same and different horses) they are two completely different jobs and personally I think its pointless to compare the two. You may look at a photo of me over a 3’6 hunter jump and attack my form and act like I can’t ride at all, but I can just as easily sit up and balance to a big drop on the exact same horse in the cross country field. As many have pointed out all ready a good rider is able to adjust their ride for the horse/discipline they are in, just like watching the difference between Tori Colvin in the hunters and the jumpers.[/QUOTE]

I’m not quite sure why you are saying you don’t know why I posted the comment that I did. If you are really that interested, send me a PM and I can tell you what I recorded George saying about jumping ahead and ducking in the hunter arena.

When I was searching for a coach I would trailer my horse to their barn and take an ‘interview’ lesson. I call it this since not all coaches style/ideals match with every rider’s own style/ideals. (Note I am sure they all have some great material).

But anyways, in two of my lessons that I took with two different coaches, both competing with students in the 'A’s, they wanted me to keep short but soft rein, press my knuckles beside my horses mane and keep a very forward light seat.
I, personally, am big on theory and understanding concepts rather than just doing…(my background with a big eq barn), so I asked ‘why’. I was told that it encourages a lower outline since the horse will want to avoid the pressure. Resulting in the lopey hunter canter and will encourage the horse to keep their neck down over fences but tuck the knees up high to clear the rail.

It makes sense when I think about how it produces this reaction… but I didn’t end up staying with these coaches. Not really because of this but it was part.
(I have a younger greener horse who gets crafty if I stop riding to a fence. Ie- too many unplanned dismounts and unless I keep a feel with my seat she also stops making an effort. Likely because she is built a little long and needs a little assistance)

Ironically, on the other spectrum. I recently had a lesson with another new coach who told me my position was too perfect to stay effective.
But I get it… the outcome of your riding will be present in your horse. If you do not constantly adapt, your not doing your job to the fullest. So really, what does it matter what the rider looks like as long as it gets the best result?

I work in a field where I have to try to understand both sides and it kind of trickles into thinking of everything.
Although, I have to say I am in the boat of, “perfect equitation will teach the horse to meet you and be where it needs to be”.

I don’t think this is a controversial subject per say but I think different things work for different horses and people so that person gets set in their beliefs. My advice … Aim for the best equitation possible initially and once this is ingrained then try different things.

I should also note. I have a friend with a young hunter who is extremely athletic and round. He produces a phenominal jump when he is on his game but it also results in an extremely tough ride. I have been around the block a time or two and as much as I tried to stay beautiful, to stay out of his way resulted in a position … with less sparkle let’s say.

You know that’s not serious, right? It’s a joke…

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7600864]
I’m not quite sure why you are saying you don’t know why I posted the comment that I did. If you are really that interested, send me a PM and I can tell you what I recorded George saying about jumping ahead and ducking in the hunter arena.[/QUOTE]

So, anyone that has been around for a little and pays any attention to GM knows his feelings on the topic.

People are wanting you to explain your comment because when someone called you out on it, you said that wasn’t what you meant (‘eventers are better’), but it sure seems like it was what you meant. If it wasn’t, please explain it as some of us are confused. That mentality is just SO.OLD. I see plenty of scary riding from eventers that does include jumping ahead, ducking and throwing their legs back and getting left behind, surfing on their horse’s mouths, etc. Riding faults are not specific to a certain discipline and to pretend that they are is shortsighted at best and obnoxious and rude at worst.

The fact of the matter is that at the top levels, riders get away with having less than perfect form as long as they get the job done. As you go down the levels of talent, the more significance a fault will have on the horse and the round.

My non-perfect self strives to have a good position wherever I’m riding, but that doesn’t always happen. So be it. It’s not because I ride hunters but because I jump 1x a week, have no eye for a distance and get nervous.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7600864]
I’m not quite sure why you are saying you don’t know why I posted the comment that I did. If you are really that interested, send me a PM and I can tell you what I recorded George saying about jumping ahead and ducking in the hunter arena.[/QUOTE]

It seems others misunderstood your comment also, please explain.

I just read through the GM clinic thread. Thank you for thanking the time to post that, it is very interesting.

[QUOTE=pryme_thyme;7600870]

But anyways, in two of my lessons that I took with two different coaches, both competing with students in the 'A’s, they wanted me to keep short but soft rein, press my knuckles beside my horses mane and keep a very forward light seat.
I, personally, am big on theory and understanding concepts rather than just doing…(my background with a big eq barn), so I asked ‘why’. I was told that it encourages a lower outline since the horse will want to avoid the pressure. Resulting in the lopey hunter canter and will encourage the horse to keep their neck down over fences but tuck the knees up high to clear the rail…[/QUOTE]

I think that is fascinating, for a couple of reasons.
(1) Because as far as I have read, horses instinctively lean into pressure as a protective measure. We typically have to teach them that yielding to pressure is the correct response.
(2) Because there was an answer, so many don’t have one and that if point 1 is ‘correct’ that the technique is more about using the crest release as an actual stretching aid than a style. Its not the way GM ever intended the crest release to be used, but explains the preference for crest release over auto in the professional ranks.

If I’m interpreting that explanation at all correctly, I need to go re-watch some Devon pro hunter rides. This changes how I’ve been looking at the rides :smiley:

I’ve never seen event riders use that style of riding, so that probably says something.

A good rider should have absolutely no issue switching from riding hunters to eventing with basic coaching.

I’ve seen eventers go through every sin in the book. Hunters too. Riding against the textbook is not a sin in anything but equitation, as long as you don’t ride like a jerk.

I didn’t bother reading the whole thing because yeesh the eventers vs hunters debate will pop up eventually.

I was told that the reason why top hunter riders exaggerate like that is to say ‘look at my horse! He jumps so big and round and perfectly, I can’t even maintain my position!!’

Annoying yes, but clearly it works for them.