Here are the current show jumping stars. Watch the videos and see how many of these top riders do not have perfect form all the time. They are very effective in getting the job done. http://www.globalchampionstour.com/
[QUOTE=ivy62;7604048]
The jumpers world wide…do they duck to the side and have their lower legs swinging?[/QUOTE]
Why, yes. Yes, they do. Some of them, anyway.
Again, what GP classes are you guys watching where all the riders look like equitation stars over 1.60 jumps? I must be missing out on some amazing live feeds.
I saw some amazing live feeds on “Space Ghost Coast-to-Coast” after Zorak got hammered by GHM for ducking and getting too far up the horse’s neck. If you’d like pictures, refer to some earlier posts I made. Zorak has apparently been working on his equitation and I was able to get some excellent photos of him at Devon. I’ll post pictures later today after I get to my computer.
Heck, even at 76 or whatever, GHM puts these ‘faddists’ to shame. From a biomechanical perspective, form necessarily follows function. The old-timers made it easy for their horses to do their jobs, at least the top ones did. Then there is the aesthetics of the issue…why put ugly on top if beauty?? If the hunters are judged just on the horse, why then would the rider follow an unattractive fad? Put a classically positioned rider on any of these top, big jumping hunters. Bet they make it look easy, get the lead changes and win to boot.
And CM, no need for your rabid holier-than-thou diatribes.
^^Exactly. GHM rode my horse last week in a clinic to demonstrate the type of position and release he was looking for from the people in the clinic. He looks amazing at 77!
when I got back on, i could feel the difference it made in my horse.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7599374]
Because the riders are exhausted. Have you ever been to a multi-day horse show? I’m exhausted the second I get there. The jumps are also really pretty, who doesn’t want to take an extended look at them as you go over?
Honestly, it may not be the prettiest, but the horses go really well, so while I would prefer perfect eq, I don’t let it bother me when top riders take liberties. Heck, I don’t ride 1/100th as well and for every picture of me with good eq, there are an equal amount or more with bad eq…and what’s worse is that [b]I am[/b] interfering with my horse.[/QUOTE]
ding-ding-ding. Riders are exhausted. Being pro is tiring. I had a small taste of it this weekend at a local show (with the jumps and grounds as well dressed as Pin Oak!). I had to ride three horses back to back with zero break in between (Hop off one horse, immediately tack up the next in 5 minutes, get on and warm up).
I flatted my mom’s dressage horse in green as grass to get him some off the farm experience, I trained my niece’s 12.2 hand pony in the 2’ division, and then rode my 18 hand horse in hunters. By the time I got to my horse, I was too damn tired. My position struggled and I did all I could just to get the hell out of the way of my horse so he could do his job and look pretty. Having to ride three very different rides throughout the day, I reverted to “Let’s make the horse look as best as possible, but for me just stay balanced and out of their way”. So yes, my leg slid back some or my back was roached a little.
Just like when you lift weights and number 7 and 8 of your set starts to get shaky, so does your position when you ride multiple horses.
This is coming from someone who would go “Ugh, horrible equitation from a PRO!” Well, I took a little taste of what they go through and I can see why they do what they do.
Pretty sure RugBug’s first paragraph there was a joke…
[QUOTE=boosma47;7604258]
Heck, even at 76 or whatever, GHM puts these ‘faddists’ to shame. From a biomechanical perspective, form necessarily follows function. The old-timers made it easy for their horses to do their jobs, at least the top ones did. Then there is the aesthetics of the issue…why put ugly on top if beauty?? If the hunters are judged just on the horse, why then would the rider follow an unattractive fad? Put a classically positioned rider on any of these top, big jumping hunters. Bet they make it look easy, get the lead changes and win to boot.
And CM, no need for your rabid holier-than-thou diatribes.[/QUOTE]
LOL I have no doubt that I am holier than thou 
And for your edification, there are plenty of somewhat classically trained jumper riders that cannot show a hunter worth a lick.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7604365]
LOL I have no doubt that I am holier than thou And for your edification, there are plenty of somewhat classically trained jumper riders that cannot show a hunter worth a lick.[/QUOTE]
Key word being ‘somewhat’. There are specialists, indeed. What about all-around horse people, riders who can ride anything and show that horse at it’s best?
Oh holy one, how I grovel at your feet. 
[QUOTE=MHM;7604219]
[QUOTE=ivy62;7604048]
The jumpers world wide…do they duck to the side and have their lower legs swinging?[/QUOTE]
Why, yes. Yes, they do. Some of them, anyway.
Again, what GP classes are you guys watching where all the riders look like equitation stars over 1.60 jumps? I must be missing out on some amazing live feeds.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, MHM. I’m not sure what jumpers classes ivy62 is watching, but the equitation is all over the place and I would almost say that Americans have better eq in the jumpers than a lot of Europeans. 'Course we are talking about different systems, but you know, whatever.
SnicklefritzG: I know you are flying pretty high from your GM clinic experience, but there is one thing you have to realize: GM is teaching to a system in his clinics. He’s doing whatever he can in 3 days to get people to understand and progress in HSE. He is not teaching to the individual. He doesn’t work with top level riders the same way he does in his clinics. If you need proof, watch some of the showjuimper.com videos where he is working with top riders like Beezie, Anne, and even Ian and Jonathan Millar. He knows they are far enough along in their understanding of HSE or proper riding that he lets them have their own style and isn’t driving home a system to them.
Now, that doesn’t mean what he says is wrong…it just means that he actually does allow more room for flexibility than he lets on.
Bless you my child. There are few all around horse people that can show a horse at its best in any venue. Most people that truly rise to the top of their sport are specialists in their discipline. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but it is not a given that because you are good in one venue that you will be as good at another. A great speed skater is not a figure skater.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7604396]
[snip]
SnicklefritzG: I know you are flying pretty high from your GM clinic experience, but there is one thing you have to realize: GM is teaching to a system in his clinics. He’s doing whatever he can in 3 days to get people to understand and progress in HSE. He is not teaching to the individual. He doesn’t work with top level riders the same way he does in his clinics. If you need proof, watch some of the showjuimper.com videos where he is working with top riders like Beezie, Anne, and even Ian and Jonathan Millar. He knows they are far enough along in their understanding of HSE or proper riding that he lets them have their own style and isn’t driving home a system to them.
Now, that doesn’t mean what he says is wrong…it just means that he actually does allow more room for flexibility than he lets on.[/QUOTE]
He specifically called out Pro’s when he commented on this in the clinic…
[QUOTE=ybiaw;7604340]
Pretty sure RugBug’s first paragraph there was a joke…[/QUOTE]
Ah, well I did not catch that joking-ness through her writing. Being a pro is tough, in my amateur eyes. While I had relatively good equitation on the first few horses I rode, as I got to the end of the day, I was exhausted and rounding my back more, my legs were a little more tired, etc. So perhaps, that can explain why some riders have less than perfect rides at times.
Equitation also varies between horses; there have been plenty of horses that I’ve ridden that are “flatter” in how they feel over the jump, yet they were plenty scopey and could jump lovely. Easy to stay totally in the center, balanced, and be textbook. Other horses make it nearly their mission to jump you out of the saddle over the jump it feels; my equitation falls a little to the wayside trying to hang the hell on. Does this probably mean I need to be stronger? Yes. I am an amateur however. I do not have the pleasure to make my life revolve around horses and ride multiple ones every day (I’m happy to get out to the barn 4-5x a week!).
Only a small percentage of riders are trying to make it their mission to get into the GP. Some are happy to just get around a 2’6" course or 3’ course. Different levels of goals amongst people. I don’t even know what to think anymore about this, so I just don’t. Haha.
karasha…ybiaw was correct, I was joking.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7604439]
karasha…ybiaw was correct, I was joking.[/QUOTE]
Ahh. Alas, my original comment stands I suppose 
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7604404]
Bless you my child. There are few all around horse people that can show a horse at its best in any venue. Most people that truly rise to the top of their sport are specialists in their discipline. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but it is not a given that because you are good in one venue that you will be as good at another. A great speed skater is not a figure skater.[/QUOTE]
Ah, thank you for the blessing!
Obviously there needs to be specialization. DUH. But I beg to differ with you on your premise. There are people out there who can make both h and j perform at a high level. Rodney, while not a classical eq rider, never got in his horses’ way. Yes, his leg often slipped back, but he stayed off the neck. He stayed in balance, and dare I bring it up, he used an automatic release. Why is this important? Because it allows the horse to stay in optimal balance over and landing from a fence. The rider does not lean on the hands, does not add more weight to the horse’s front end. A correctly executed AR requires the rider to ride from his core in order to stay quiet and with the horse’s bascule. Same issue I have with the standing tendency with so many today. Where is the seat ie the core? The seat is not the seat bones in the saddle, it encompasses the rider’s torso, from mid thigh to shoulders. In order for the rider to stay with the horse, he must stay close to the horse’s center of balance. I was taught to reach forward, following horse’s mouth, and back with my butt, following pony’s topline over a fence, no matter the height or jumping style, and I could stay with just about any horse (unless I blew it!)
I daresay GHM might understand where I’m coming from, as would Bill Steinkraus, but then, they are old farts and not as cool as we all are today.
SnicklefritzG, I think I love you.
[QUOTE=ivy62;7604048]
I am a fan of form and function. It is there for a reason. Hunters are only in the US so we only show against ourselves so other "styles: are not included.
The jumpers world wide…do they duck to the side and have their lower legs swinging?
If I remember right, I heard GM discussing why the US is no longer at the top of the Jumping world internationally. There has to be something to it.
There are a few I love to watch here but not many and the odd win does not make a star.
Look at the old pictures of Kathy Kusner, legs are great auto release, Bill Steinkraus etc. What were they doing wrong that someone felt it should change?
I dread the day when the last of the GMs and Denny’s and so one are gone…
JMHO[/QUOTE]
I don’t mean to stir the pot and I agree that GM is an incredible horseman, but sometimes I think this board gets a bit over exaggerated about his influence. The Americans (and Canadians) are the only ones that really place such a focus on hunt seat equitation, yet there are tons of European (and American) riders with unorthodox styles that seem to be working just fine for them. If our system of bringing up riders through the equitation was the only way to go and perfect equitation was the most functional then you should be able to look at the standings of the top jumper riders and only the ones with the best equitation would be winning… this is not the case. Eventually these riders get to a skill level where they are able to adapt their ride and develop a personal style… there is nothing wrong with this, if everyone rode the exact same way then how would those quirky horses find a ride that suits them.
While I do agree that GM and the purpose of coming up through the equitation is incredibly beneficial, I do not see why it is such a big deal if riders get to a point where they have learned what does and doesn’t work for them and adapted a personal style. If it wasn’t effective their horses would not jump the way they do and they would not pin, just because it doesn’t work for you doesn’t mean that someone else can’t make it work for them.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7604404]
… There are few all around horse people that can show a horse at its best in any venue. Most people that truly rise to the top of their sport are specialists in their discipline. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but it is not a given that because you are good in one venue that you will be as good at another. .[/QUOTE]
On the other hand, Jen Alfano showed the crap out of that 5-gaited horse at Devon…
When I was home for Devon this week, I had the honor of picking the brains of 2 big judges (not the Devon judges) about something along this very topic (not for COTH, the convo just moved).
It was interesting to hear that (I am paraphrasing) “generally” they are watching the horses, especially at the upper levels much moreso (which is almost a duh I bc it is HUNTERS). Yes, the overall picture is important, but when you may be talking about a few points separating the winners the smallest HORSE detail comes into play. They are watching the minute details OF THE HORSE. Legs crisp, even, the straightness over the jump, into the corners etc etc.
A crisp eq can complete the picture, but at the upper upper hunter levels, those horses are/can be so nice they are hawking the horses form etc to be able to separate the pack.
Like I said, this is my cliff note summary. Yes, the overall picture is important and “may” come into play if 2 horses are neck and neck but interestingly, both said that comes in mostly at lower level hunters.
