Actually boosma, I think you will find it rare that Rodney used your description of auto release. If you doubt me, I invite you to view the FB page called “Friends of the Red Rider” where you may view hundreds of photographs of him riding both hunters and jumpers.
In some of these photos you will see his chest touching the neck. In some of these photos you will see him leaning his weight to one side or another with his face close to or even touching the neck. Some may even call this ducking I dare say. All of it was meant to influence the horses jumping style and way of going.
[QUOTE=boosma47;7604258]
If the hunters are judged just on the horse, why then would the rider follow an unattractive fad?[/QUOTE]
I think that’s the whole point of the discussion. Today’s pros are capable of riding in whatever form or style they choose. They choose the current style for a reason. It seems to produce winning rounds.
If better equitation produced better hunter rounds, I think we’d see better equitation in the hunter rings.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7604636]
Actually boosma, I think you will find it rare that Rodney used your description of auto release. If you doubt me, I invite you to view the FB page called “Friends of the Red Rider” where you may view hundreds of photographs of him riding both hunters and jumpers.
In some of these photos you will see his chest touching the neck. In some of these photos you will see him leaning his weight to one side or another with his face close to or even touching the neck. Some may even call this ducking I dare say. All of it was meant to influence the horses jumping style and way of going.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the same thing myself and searched for some RJ pictures. Unfortunately, google is full of RJ image results who are not the RJ I was looking for…even when you add another qualifier. RJ had great balance, but kind of interesting eq. 
[QUOTE=RugBug;7604689]
I was thinking the same thing myself and searched for some RJ pictures. Unfortunately, google is full of RJ image results…even when you add another qualifier. RJ had great balance, but kind of interesting eq. :D[/QUOTE]
And yet, you would be hard pressed to find a rider that more people admired for his ability and his successful record. At least among those of a certain age.
I was just talking about him last night to my sister, who does not ride. We were discussing talent with horses, and I said, “Basically, everybody would like to be Rodney Jenkins. But there is only one Rodney Jenkins. The rest of us just have to do the best we can with what we have.” 
An interesting Rodney anecdote: as you probably know, Rodney is a race horse trainer now as am I. Years ago I was talking to him and told him I was headed to the Penn National horse show that evening to volunteer at a horse rescue booth. I asked him if he ever went back or of he missed showing at all and he was adamant that he has never looked back and wanted nothing to do with the politics and BS anymore. He did end up filling in for one of the judges in the hunter breeding at Devon the first year I showed there. That made it extra fun.
^ Yes, and I believe Michael Matz was a spectator at Devon that same year. How funny that they would both turn up at the same show after all this time!
I remember seeing Rodney back when they still had shows at Madison Square Garden. Used to go with my dad to watch
[QUOTE=snaffle635;7604670]
I think that’s the whole point of the discussion. Today’s pros are capable of riding in whatever form or style they choose. They choose the current style for a reason. It seems to product winning rounds.
If better equitation produced better hunter rounds, I think we’d see better equitation in the hunter rings.[/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with this statement! And this is why threads like this can be so frustrating. These riders are very intentional about everything involving riding their horses. If they don’t produce results the horse will end up with another rider/trainer, which obviously means big money going to someone else. Someone earlier in the thread reported from Devon how the riders focus on the specifics of each horse as they warm up. I’m just amazed that some people think they know what would work better than the riders who are winning.
I think a good question at a George Morris clinic would be, " Why/how do these riders who lay on the necks consistently win?" And I’m not being sarcastic. I would love to hear his response.
[QUOTE=Cannonball;7604996]
I think a good question at a George Morris clinic would be, " Why/how do these riders who lay on the necks consistently win?" And I’m not being sarcastic. I would love to hear his response.[/QUOTE]
The answer to your question is simple: “Because the judges pin it.” But it really doesn’t get the heart of the issue, which is why I think the question should be: “Why/how do these riders who lay on the neck consistently get such amazing rounds from their horses?”
Honestly, to really support GM’s insistence that this style of riding is detrimental, we’d need longitudinal studies on both horses and riders in comparison with hunters ridden in a classic HSE across all levels of the sport to prove that form really does follow function. Does it cause more injury in the horses? Do the riders tend to fall off more? Is it specific to certain levels of riders/horses? How many rails do these horses have in comparison? Even then, it might not mean anything at all as there are so many variables that finding a causal relationship could be very difficult.
It works for them, and they win. Though I don’t think they are actually fooling experienced judges by heaving them selves over their horses neck to be all like “ZOMG This horsey is so powerful! I can’t keep my seat!”
I just think it’s a very vulnerable position. I shudder to think about what could happen if something goes wrong and you’re already pitched forward. No matter how experienced you are, you can’t win against gravity.
It works for them, that’s great, but it’s not something I personally will be trying to emulate.
Anything that cringeworthy must be wrong. Not to mention the extra cringeworthy outfits. I’d love to take them hunting !
[QUOTE=snaffle635;7604670]
I think that’s the whole point of the discussion. Today’s pros are capable of riding in whatever form or style they choose. They choose the current style for a reason. It seems to product winning rounds.
If better equitation produced better hunter rounds, I think we’d see better equitation in the hunter rings.[/QUOTE]
So the discussion has come full circle LOL
And perhaps Rodney’s alleged AR wasn’t so frequent…he still stayed in balance with his horse and didn’t need the extreme neck riding in the hunter ring. There have been plenty of old photos posted recently on FB sites showing hunter riders with classical, balanced positions…
And there was a reason we had to use it way back when in the hunter ring.
Until the next discussion comes up. Carry on.
I guess my head is stuck in the past… I hope these work.
The picture when the rider is in balance with the horse is poetry in motion. What is wrong with these?
http://showjumpingnostalgia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Frank-Chapot-Sinbad-Aachen-1959.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/c7163477932cb1b035db44e98e7ce821/tumblr_mimz58WjaA1s6aehvo1_500.jpg
http://equestrianlegends.horseradionetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Bill-Steinkraus.jpg
http://www.usef.org/images/wir/wardshort08-gallian.jpg
http://www.pferd-aktuell.de/files/1/9/15/389/08_Beerbaum.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPpKDs5ntnwKcU_STXFdmQqX8t0aCDX_5i_wHmTiEZQ_UOKEylTkYKs4g
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Meredith+Michaels+Beerbaum+Olympics+Day+12+Zb2C8VIWfn-l.jpg
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/s526x395/398085_443520569048335_2031318618_n.jpg
The way I see it, is that the judges pin it and every little kid who sees them ride thinks that is how it is done. No one is teaching the basics any more.
If people want to see lots of pictures of RJ go to facebook and look up the friends of the red rider. There are lots of them there… I saw them all years ago at the Garden and was so amazed at how effortless they made it look. That was amazing. To see them swinging and looking like it is taking a lot of effort is not a pretty picture to me…
JMHO
There are plenty of people teaching the basics. Did you watch the EQ at Devon? I would say that Missy Clark, Andre Dignelli, Don Stewart and many more are doing a fine job of it.
Ivy, we already mentioned the Rodney FB page earlier and the person who claimed that RJ used an auto release had to back away from their statement. There also seems to be a refusal to admit that RJ put his body over the horses neck though evident in a number of photos. Kind of odd to stick to those guns even when there is evidence to the contrary And even in the photos you link to, few are using an auto release. And eventers would say that Mr. Steinkraus has put himself in a very precarious position in that lovely bank shot at Hickstead. All these people ride great. It is unfortunate that such rigidity about technique doesn’t allow some folks to appreciate some really good riding. Oh well…
There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with them. But they’re all pics of jumpers. The discussion is specifically about hunters.
It’s not fair to compare a photograph of a jumper to a photograph of a hunter because the pace of the two is very different. In a photo, we can’t see what happened across the ground to get the horse to that point of its arc. Video would be a fairer comparison.
I’m in agreement that better equitation makes a prettier picture overall. I’ve just been trying to understand how less than perfect equitation creates a better hunter jump. Thanks to some of the posters here, I’m getting a better understanding of it.
[QUOTE=snaffle635;7605374]
I’m in agreement that better equitation makes a prettier picture overall. I’ve just been trying to understand how less than perfect equitation creates a better hunter jump. Thanks to some of the posters here, I’m getting a better understanding of it.[/QUOTE]
I don’t necessarily think it creates a better hunter jump, but more so that it doesn’t interfere as much as people would like you to believe. Like, if little Suzie throws herself up the neck and looks down, I’m not so sure her pony, Sassypants, is going to jump that much better. But if Sassypants is already a lovely hunter type that has been trained well, it may not interfere. If Sassypants’ training isn’t so great or it is a hunter that needs more help, well, Suzie up the neck might hurt the jump.
Clearly you can’t make the argument that jumping ahead and ducking are hurting every single rounds…especially with the more skilled riders. The only argument you can really make is that it is ugly…and not many are going to disagree.
Side note for those who might not know. Meredith Michaels Beerbaum is not a valid example of a current European rider who shows in the jumpers with great equitation. She certainly does have great equitation over big jumps, but she was an American who won the equitation finals before she married a German rider and moved to Europe. She did not learn that style in Europe from the start.
[QUOTE=Equibrit;7605065]
Anything that cringeworthy must be wrong. Not to mention the extra cringeworthy outfits. I’d love to take them hunting ![/QUOTE]
Bingo! American hunter classes are not about hunting.
But, here’s my theory: once upon a time kids and young adolescents rode ponies and small horses. When they were told to place their hands half-way up the horses neck, it was physically feasible. Then kids started riding big horses in the hunter classes. In order to place your hands half-way up the big horses’ neck, you had to lean forward. The habit stuck. The remedy is to get your leg at the girth and keep it there.
Lordsamercy, that bank would give me a heart attack.
alicen, here’s a shot of me with my leg at the girth and my upper body… well, I don’t really know what the heck I was doing. (FWIW - I’m 5’4" and he’s a big bodied 16.3). But it’s an interesting theory - here’s one where my hands were roughly halfway up the neck and my leg is nearish to the girth - but I AM slightly ahead, I believe, and probably a bit lower with my upper body than necessary, but I wouldn’t say ducking to any major extent. She was about 15.1, I think.
I have a few shots where my leg has slipped back and my upper body is closer to where it should be from an eq standpoint, but also plenty where my leg is excellent and my upper body is off doing something bizarre. I don’t think the leg - as base of support at the girth - necessarily prevents us from flying our upper bodies off to east wherever.
My thought has always been for the really good pros, they develop their style and their rides - their feel, eye, rhythm, and ability to get a horse to jump around like that are going to be good even if technically unorthodox, and for the rest of us there is either equitation or a seeing eye dog saint of a horse, or things are going to get unattractive.
