Hunter Stallion to Refine a Huge Rio Grande Mare

[MountainCreekSportHo]

@Anne;7588032

If you’re thinking of using Sir Wanabi frozen, please PM me. I love my three year old by him.

I do not come on here often because we represent so many stallions I don’t think it is my place to push on or the other…THAT being said I do have an issue with this statement (and what it insinuates).
For the record I have used (and shipped) many doses of frozen semen for Sir Wanabi. I personally have used 2 doses and got 2 pregnancies. I have never heard anything but good things from clients about his frozen as well. Vets and mare owners are quick at reporting a problem and we have dropped stallions before because of poor quality semen. Sounds like your mare was bred before we started storing for Sandra (about 2 yrs ago) so I really hope that you didn’t get a bad ‘straw’ (he is a 1 straw dose) but every straw we have dethawed both for ourselves and clients did the trick!!

back under my rock…

[Lynnwood]

Of all those mentioned if frozen were a possibility I’d absolutely go with Jupiter.

[TrueColours]

This is a bit of a departure into “Left Field” with regards to the frozen versus fresh debate, but here goes …

In my specific area, we have 1 vet that is conversant with frozen and is comfortable using it. Luckily he is also my vet so if I did want to breed with frozen, I would have “0” hesitation in doing so. Other than him - you then have the option of shipping your mares 1-2 hours away to a specialized repro facility where they are also well versed in frozen. BUT … a client of mine has done exactly that and in their 3rd year right now and 4/5 mares later to different stallions, they are + - $30,000 in costs without an in foal mare to show for it. And I will again re-iterate - this is a top notch, specialized repro facility so the client has done everything right in selecting them. They have just spent a whack of money with no pregnancies as a result, so that - in a nutshell - is the big hesitation for many Mare Owners. The horrific costs that can be involved with frozen unless you are fortunate that you do have a local vet that can do frozen, that you are comfortable using.

Another client bought some breedings on an online stallion auction and didn’t realize that the only semen being offered was frozen, so she has opted to defer those breeding to 2015 and 2016 to save the money to put towards the frozen costs (she also does not have vets in her local area that can work with frozen) and is breeding to another stallion instead that offers fresh cooled

And one last factor that needs to be considered as the CEM issue is still alive and well with semen being shipped from the US into Canada. Many Canadian Mare Owners select a stallion specifically that stands in Canada - whether he is being offered fresh or frozen - to avoid the permit costs and the extra costs associated with getting US based semen into Canada, so if a Canadian based stallion is then sold to the States, it doesn’t matter one whit whether past breedings will be honored - it then puts a larger financial burden on the Canadian based Mare Owner to get that semen into Canada and get their mare bred - higher shipping costs, permit costs, USDA costs at origin, etc and if fresh cooled was initially offered when the breeding agreement was reached and now all that is available is Canadian based frozen semen - again - there are higher shipping costs to factor in, getting the dry shipper returned to the sender, higher vet costs in using the frozen, etc, etc so it truly is not a case of saying “Business As Normal” at all …

[Sheila_A]

@RyuEquestrian;7587503

Some of the stallions that we have considered to throw hunters with our taller, more substantial girls:

Stallions that I personally would stay away from with a tall big bodied mare with little blood:

Cabardino (needs a mare with refinement)

I am very curious about this, I heard Carbardino was a smaller, refining stallion.

Also, fwiw, I had two mares bred with frozen this year. First year I have used frozen as I too have heard horror stories. Two mares, two doses of frozen (different stallions), two pregnancies, $850 for both mares. I know that is not always the case but I am very fortunate to have access to a super repro facility

[tucktaway]

@Sheila A;7588595

I am very curious about this, I heard Carbardino was a smaller, refining stallion.

I agree. Charlot farms has crossed him on lots of Rio mares, I think for this very reason.
I have a 6 year old of this breeding and would happily repeat the cross.

[TKR]

IMO to reduce the size, “beefcake” type - wide back, etc., and refine this mare, you will have add a fair amount of blood to stack the deck for what is wanted in the resulting foal. Using another wb might get a more refined foal, but you will still run the risk of keeping alot of the heft, size in height and structure. Even though another RG mare was successfully bred using “X” stallion, it might not apply to THIS mare because she obviously needs considerable help in scaling
back. It’s not JUST the refinement.
PennyG

[tucktaway]

/\ well said!

[Sparky_Boy]

[QUOTE=tucktaway;7588637]
I agree. Charlot farms has crossed him on lots of Rio mares, I think for this very reason.
I have a 6 year old of this breeding and would happily repeat the cross.[/QUOTE]

I JUST received Cabardino semen today for my BIG mare. So excited.
FWIW, Charlot Farms was SO easy to work with.

[_Tradewind]

I am surprised that some have found Cabardino to not refine. I was at W. Charlot last May and discussed him and what he has produced with Christine Walch: they purchased him as a stallion to complement their mares as their herd is primarily Rio Grande and Viva Voltaire mares that are BIG, with many older style mares. I saw quite a few Cabardino babies at the farm and their dams, and my impression was that Cabardino often refined the big Rio and Viva mares. Christine said that he does not necessarily refine or reduce size AS MUCH as people expect (hence the mixed reviews on this forum), but in general he does add some refinement to the bigger mares.

I am looking forward to breeding my Rocadero mare to Cabardino this year!

[vandenbrink]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;7589317]
I am surprised that some have found Cabardino to not refine. I was at W. Charlot last May and discussed him and what he has produced with Christine Walch: they purchased him as a stallion to complement their mares as their herd is primarily Rio Grande and Viva Voltaire mares that are BIG, with many older style mares. I saw quite a few Cabardino babies at the farm and their dams, and my impression was that Cabardino often refined the big Rio and Viva mares. Christine said that he does not necessarily refine or reduce size AS MUCH as people expect (hence the mixed reviews on this forum), but in general he does add some refinement to the bigger mares.

I am looking forward to breeding my Rocadero mare to Cabardino this year![/QUOTE]

Not surprised by that. I saw the stallion at the home farm years ago, and had to do a double take. He was definitely a medium sized leggy, smaller bodied elegant stallion. He probably throws back to some heavier blood at times. He should refine the BIG Rio mare in question, but is not as refined as for example Fred’s stallion Fred…aka A Fine Romance. He’d be the perfect match on a lot of these bigger coarser Rio’s, but unfortunately now retired. A full TB is a super choice, and consider Checkmate as well. I bred Checkmate to a Riverman x Nimmerdor mare and wanted a more elegant version of the mare. I got exactly that. He’d be more refining than Cabardino, and not produce super tall either. Sir Wannabi is actually quite a big horse. He throws super pretty heads, but I wouldn’t expect him to make the mare much finer and smaller.

[Fred]

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;7589660]
Not surprised by that. I saw the stallion at the home farm years ago, and had to do a double take. He was definitely a medium sized leggy, smaller bodied elegant stallion. He probably throws back to some heavier blood at times. He should refine the BIG Rio mare in question, but is not as refined as for example Fred’s stallion Fred…aka A Fine Romance.
He’d be the perfect match on a lot of these bigger coarser Rio’s, but unfortunately now retired. [/QUOTE]

Thank you vandenbrink.
A Fine Romance has been bred to a few Rio mares, and although he himself is quite a big horse and substantial, he is a full TB and does add refinement - as well as athleticism and jumping ability.I always felt that he was an ideal cross for Rio mares as well. :yes:
A Fine Romance himself is a proven hunter, showing successfully in the Combined Working Hunters and producing successful show hunter offspring.
He and I are retired from active breeding, but I do have a limited amount of frozen semen available.

One of his daughters who showed in the AOs:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150987033582400&set=pb.119405697399.-2207520000.1400859109.&type=3&theater

A granddaughter by Contendro: Champion Mare in Canada in the 2013 ISR/OldNA inspections, and 5th in NA.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152632461827400&set=a.121353542399.111618.119405697399&type=1&theater

Another daughter, now showing in the hunter ring, as a weanling.
Champion at her inspection and tied for highest scoring weanling in NA. TB/SF X bred by our own much loved and missed Bernie Ball (Talloaks).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=380196927399&set=pb.119405697399.-2207520000.1400859885.&type=3&theater

(sorry for all the pics - I just got a bit carried away there)

[HyperionStudLLC]

Dakota VDL could be a nice choice for hunter breeding. Great technique, brain and build for a larger framed mare.

[Lynnwood]

I know he is totally a out of left field but. We used ISF(Iron Springs Farm’s) Neptune twice and got two very refined horses. He’s only available frozen but it was excellent semen and the cost is really reasonable.

Both offspring move really well and jump even better. Good minds. The only thing I wasn’t thrilled with was height but the mare was shorter 16hnds and heavy the foals ended up around her size but very refined.

The filly was the top 2 year old hunter type for the keuring tour in 07 and the colt just started doing derbies with his owner/trainer and placing very well.

Filly @ 2
https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/179232_1552252140059_3207545_n.jpg

Gelding in the pre greens
https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t31.0-8/894095_10200204932420660_1915765545_o.jpg

[allanglos]

Anglo Arabian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FGCEoxph5Q

[CrowneDragon]

[QUOTE=TKR;7588946]
IMO to reduce the size, “beefcake” type - wide back, etc., and refine this mare, you will have add a fair amount of blood to stack the deck for what is wanted in the resulting foal. Using another wb might get a more refined foal, but you will still run the risk of keeping alot of the heft, size in height and structure. Even though another RG mare was successfully bred using “X” stallion, it might not apply to THIS mare because she obviously needs considerable help in scaling
back. It’s not JUST the refinement.
PennyG[/QUOTE]

I’ll add a tangentially related anecdote to this. I sold a TB mare some years ago, who was about 16.1 or so and an average TB build. She has been bred to Rio Grande 3 or 4 times, and all of the resultant kids have been very, very big. They are more refined than Rio Grande, but at least 2 of them are pushing 18 hands (I don’t know about the others). Lovely horses all of them but very large. I know that he isn’t that tall himself, but the mare is not large nor are her parents, and somehow she has still ended up with huge babies. Once it became evident how large they were getting the owner nixed that cross. She has crossed to other WB stallions and gotten nothing near that size.

[Fred]

I bred my big AFR daughter to VDL Windsor H, and am very pleased with the foal.

Although Windsor is WB with very little TB blood, he is smaller (16h) and quite modern and refined.
He is by Indoctro out of an Ahorn mare.
Shows in the jumper ring with his AA rider.

Here is a link to his FB page: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=148721631990489&set=a.146152248914094.1073741833.141878422674810&type=1&theater

[RyuEquestrian]

My only concern with using Cabardino with a larger older fashioned mare is that the Caretino in his pedigree would come through. Caretino offspring are inconsistent in type, some quite small, others very tall. That would be my hesitation, but he does bring quite a bit of blood at 54.10% blood, which would certainly add the refinement factor.