Hunter Stallions for Quiet, Easy, Rideable Offspring

[Henley497]

@DiamondJubilee I actually have a Sir Wanabi baby due end of April/early May! Fingers crossed for a healthy filly! I purchased in utero just days before he passed. I’m going to echo what you’ve just said, I know there are more spectacular studs out there but I really really enjoy how quiet and ammy friendly his babies are. This is my first foal and I’ve followed Sir Wanabi for quite some time so the temperament he consistently passes on really sealed the deal for me! That being said I haven’t seen any of his kids at the top of USEF rankings lol. For the purpose of this foal that was totally fine for me though!

I would love to keep in touch and see how our foals develop! Sending jingles your way for an easy birth and a healthy foal!

[sigrid.sijtsma]

Quaterback is a real dressage bred stallion, he is a very good stallion, but i thought for hunter, you need a horse that has jumpingabbilties. with good movement.

So why quaterback if i may ask?

I bred myself a very good hunter competing in north america on the highest level and winning on big shows, Winner sired by Haarlem came from an allround bred stallion, breeding very good jumpers with good movement, and the dam had type, good willing caracter and good brains too work, but not easy going.

Winner is kind of the same horse, if you are treating him good and with respect, he works with you the best, and shows at the best he can do.

Winning Comes With the Name For Winner and Daryl Portela (phelpssports.com)

I always thought that breeding a high quality hunter, is not easy, it is just in time, as they mature and work on levels, that you can know its gonna be a good hunter or not.

cause it has nothing to do with the hight of the jumps, here in the netherlands it is hunter class not something that is very known, and not a lot of shows.

[bingbingbing]

@wanderlust

Top of my list in the US would be Cabalito (not Cabardino) and Westporte.

Depending on the mare and your goals, I would choose Cabalito over Westporte. Cabalito is scopier IMO. Both have very good temperaments.

[Henley497]

@sigrid.sijtsma As I understand it Quaterback has some high quality jumping blood in his pedigree, especially from his damline. I believe he scored around an 8.5 for his jump at his licensing as well. There is a very interesting thread on here from 2008 about someone wanting to cross Quaterback with their hunter mare for a hunter foal. At that point Quaterback’s oldest foal crop were only yearlings and MANY people on that thread commented on how it would be wasteful to breed him to a hunter and that it was unlikely he would produce any of quality since he has such extravagant movement. Funnily enough, a few people came back to that thread 10+ years later to comment that they had been wrong and the few people from the thread that proposed crossing him with a huntery mare would make for nice hunter offspring were vindicated and have had great success using him since that original post.

@bingbingbing as of now I prefer the type of Westporte but to be fair I haven’t been able to find conformation photos of Cabalito that aren’t from when he was 20+ years old (and I’m assuming out of work). Based on those pictures I’m not super fond of how he’s put together but there’s no denying he brings desirable traits to the table!

[wanderlust]

@sigrid.sijtsma

Quaterback is a real dressage bred stallion, he is a very good stallion, but i thought for hunter, you need a horse that has jumpingabbilties. with good movement.

So why quaterback if i may ask?

Quaterback has sired many very good hunters, I’ve sat on a couple and know a couple others. They are good moving and have great jumps. Quaterback has plenty of jumping blood a couple generations back- Quattro B, Galoubet A, Alme, on top, all 1.60m. Beach Boy on the bottom.

A lot of hunters imported these days are dressage-bred. They have the big sweeping movement hunter people like, and since most won’t compete above 3’, scope is just not that important as long as they have a tidy front end.

[Henley497]

@sigrid.sijtsma

Here is the thread Stallion Quaterback--for a hunter?

And here is an explanation of the jumping lines in Quaterback’s pedigree

Why QUATERBACK produces such awesome hunters!

[sigrid.sijtsma]

ok, dressage bred stallions, but the dressagebred stallion, thats comes from the old german lines, the "old fashioned"type stallion.

not the modern dressage type stallion.

i know the jumpinglines in the old fashioned dressagestallion, they are more allround, and bring good movement with jumpingquality. and have a well balanced type with the power from behind.

Quattro b, galoubet a en alme, french bred horses, and they are here in holland known for not good collection in mouth, heavy in hands, and or moving downwards. instead of upwards. if bred to dam that have that quality as well, then for dressage you dont have a lot of joy, but for jumping they are remarkeble.

Thanks for the info…

[MsRidiculous]

Your chances for black depend on the agoui status of both her and whatever stallion you choose, which you would have to test for in order to know. If she is homozygous agouti or if you breed to a stallion that is homozygous agouti then you’ll never get a black foal.

[MadTrotter]

Yep I realize that, I had her tested through UC Davis for FFS at my friend’s urging and while I was at it I threw in some hairs for the color test too, she’s heterozygous for agouti

[MadTrotter]

I would love to share pix but apologies for being cryptic…she’s very unique in a recognizable way and too much of my real identity would be out there. I’ll PM you if you’re curious

[Elouise]

I am just going to throw out C Quito only because a friend of mine bred to him and hers is very ammy friendly.

[Anne]

Uhhhh, PLENTY of VDL approved stallions end up here in the USA, both through private sales and via the WEF auction. Fabriano VDL is the first example that comes to mind (though he is now a gelding).

C Quito is also now a gelding, so would be frozen only. The only C Quito I knew was Jump!, who was lovely, but her dam Fine Kiss was also a very nice horse (by Ferragamo, also traditionally thought of as a dressage stallion).

[fourfillies]

My Don Alfredo checks all your boxes (out of my Simbalu mare who I would have been very happy to clone). Unfortunately I don’t believe he is available any longer. My guy is now 10 and a big red lap dog amateur hunter. I’d repeat the cross in a heartbeat.

FWIW there are two Redwines in my barn. Both very pretty. Neither is anything close to my definition of amateur friendly. But my bar is pretty high as my guy is the same every single day since he popped out 10 years ago.

[ElementFarm]

I have a 2021 Landkoenig colt who’s the quietest easiest baby I’ve ever had. In fact, we haven’t bothered to geld him yet since he has zero understanding what ‘that’ is for. If I had a suitable mare and was open to using frozen, I’d love to use Landkoenig again.

Lots of people recommend Apiro and he’s also well known for adding chunk. I had a mare in foal to him for 2020, but sadly lost the foal at the very end (nearly lost the mare as well). But since that breeding, I’ve had more contact with Apiro offspring, and am not aaaaassss much in love with him. He definitely adds chunk, and the offspring are fairly quiet, but of the three I’ve known well (including one I owned) none had any work ethic to speak of, and two had some sort of vague NQR-ness going on that contributed to performance challenges.

I love the R line hanoverians (from Rubinstein) but agree that that some of the Redwine offspring aren’t ammie -friendly. OTOH, I would never use him anyway due to associated owner and EVA status. I also have met several P-lines that are temperamentally difficult.

If the mare would be a good match, I love the Quaterback offspring, and while most I’ve known aren’t going to win the hack, temperament and jump were consistently good. And there’s a lot to be said for a good old fashioned ‘dual purpose’ type horse.

It’s tough, because it takes a several years for a stallion to have offspring old enough to evaluate their performance careers. and then you only have a limited window with him before he’s deceased or potentially has fertility challenges.

[fourfillies]

Agree with the Apiro assessment completely from @ElementFarm. If you find a great one enjoy them but I wouldn’t roll the genetic dice trying to make my own.

[Henley497]

@ElementFarm and @fourfillies Thanks for the Apiro info! I’ve had a few people message me privately to say similar things so he’s mostly off of my list (which has evolved quite a bit since this thread began lol).

@ElementFarm Do you have any experience with Landkoenig under saddle? What I’m finding is that a ton of studs produce charming, quiet, sensible foals that are generally easy/pleasant to work with but that that doesn’t always translate to rideability and pleasantness under saddle lol. Good luck with your colt though, he sounds lovely!

Yes, there have been a number of competing opinions on Redwine as I’ve done more research but it looks like he’s out of the running regardless due to some ethical issues related to his connections. Do you have some examples of the P-line? I don’t think I’m familiar!

Yes agreed! Quaterback is definitely an option provided the mare is a good fit, I like him a lot.

You’re absolutely right about the narrow window of using stallions. There are a few I like that are up and coming but I just can’t justify the breeding without an older foal crop on the ground. Despite the actual stallions being quite nice it’s really hard to know what they’ll produce under saddle when they only have weanlings on the ground.

I really appreciate the insight, thank you!

@fourfillies your gelding sounds like the dream! I’d love it if I could find something that produced that kind of reliability consistently, definitely the kind of ammy friendly behaviour I’d like but I know finding that is tough and a lot to ask of some horses lol. Redwine is very pretty himself but has been eliminated from the list for a number of reasons.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Bliss MF or Cunningham? People seem to be obsessed with them both on FB (Ontario Eq groups and Hunter Breeding groups) but I’ve heard and seen very mixed reviews. Would be interested in any thoughts/experiences you guys have! Alpine has also popped up recently but I know next to nothing about him other than one Alpine x All the Gold cross I liked (from video lol). Others I’ve been looking at more recently include Checkmate, Valentino, El Salvador (Tangelo vdZ in his pedigree), San Remo (I think one of Kat Faqua’s horses is by him but don’t quote me on that), and Corragio but I have limited info and opinions on most of these lol.
Thanks again guys, it’s always so nice to hear everyone’s experiences and opinions!

[ElementFarm]

No experience with Landkoenigs of any age other than mine. And I agree, sometimes quiet babies are unusually difficult to start, while some challenging foals are straightforward and easy to start and bring along. My colt’s dam is suuupppeer sweet on the ground, but a bit of a pistol to ride, so it’ll be interesting to see how her son does.

P line is from Pilot, and that line includes Pablo and Pablito. I’ve known a handful and many were not ammie-rides without a lot of training and mileage. Paparazzo sired many successful HB and performance hunters, but I never met any personally.

We have two Cunninghams showing locally that I know of. One is lovely and my trainer, who I respect on bloodlines, recommends Cunningham because her client’s was so easy. The other one is owned by a nice ammie (and vet who has a small scale hunter breeding program) and that one is spicy and quirky and being ridden by a pro who is good with difficult horses. It’s a gorgeous horse, but definitely needed a good program.

I LOVE Checkmate. A friend had a stunning 2yo homebred by him that was sadly lost in a pasture accident. I bred one mare to him last year, but Fed Ex delayed the shipment and the mare didn’t take. I will say the SO wasn’t the easiest to work with, but if I breed again in the future, I would love to use him.

I have had 2x Bliss homebreds. Both are very friendly and easy horses. I backed/started both myself with no drama. One just recently sold as a 5yo to very good dressage home. The other I still own (now 6yo) and hoping to start her hunter career this year. While both of my homebreds have good brains, aren’t spooky, and are attractive and good movers, I would not use him again. Both of mine ended up significantly smaller than expected and smaller than both of their dams. I’ve since met other breeders who had the same problem (and other breeders who had the same problem from other BdR sons). My bestie has a young Bliss gelding that is 17.2 and wears a 54" girth–he’s huge, but there’s a very statistically relevant percentage of his offspring that end up little. And it’s heartbreaking to have a horse with the WHOLE package, except that it’s only 15hh. Other than that, I loved mine, and would very happily buy a horse by Bliss, as long as it was already the height I wanted.

I would not use Alpine. He stands locally and while he does stamp his offspring, he’s not a stallion I would use. (feel free to PM if you have specific questions). Valentino is getting used by people I respect, but haven’t met any that were under saddle or performing.
There are several Lordanos horses successful in sport, and a few North American stallions by him that look lovely.
I will repeat my statement about R lines. I’ve had, I think 6 of them now? And every single one was sweet, quiet, and sensible to own and ride.

Many of the stallion owners out there are very honest about their boys, and what they pass. I’d reach out to Edgar Schute (Eurequine) and Kathy St Martin (Avalon Equine) and ask them which of their stallions might be a good match for your mare. I would trust their opinion, as they’ve both been doing this a long time.

[skip99]

Chiming in as I have a Landkoenig mare (out of a TB I owned). She was a pretty easy foal and easy to back (backed her solo). She’s incredibly smart, downside to that is we had a bad experience or two that has made her very noise adverse and nervous in traffic because she remembers everything! She’s also very much a Mare, so when something is not right in her world she will let you know (bad farrier work, saddle fit, etc).

Those two things coupled with my complete lack of time the past couple years have kept us from progressing in a traditional sense, but - knock on wood - we’re on a consistent schedule again and she’s got a great stride, plenty of scope, and has figured out how to hunt the jumps. Could be a hunter if we could go without a sound dampening bonnet. For being pretty big (16.3ish and 81/82 blanket) I find her quite rideable when she’s focused and I’m just 5’4. She goes in a Nathe and has no inclination to pull but is very athletic when nervous . I would have another Landkoenig any time.

[Marabel]

@DiamondJubilee Would you still have frozen Sir Wanabi available?

[DiamondJubilee]

@Marabel - I do! I purchased a dose last summer and have it stored in case I ever wanted to use it in the future. But now I’m not so sure I want to go down the breeding route again lol!