Stallion Quaterback--for a hunter?

[knowonder]

Hello all! I had posted a thread on the Dressage forum asking for updates on the stallion Quaterback. It seems he has been busy breeding and will not be really seen until he is at FEI level according to one poster.

I LOVE this horse, but I show hunters. My question in this–Would this stallion be in any way an effective/successful cross to a Voltaire mare? I was hoping since his gaits are so nice and his jumping scores were not horrible, that it might work.

Please all of you knowledgeable breeders give me your opinions. I do realize a “hunter” baby is not what 99% of the people would breed to him for–I just want to know if it would be a disaster or not.

The mare in question is big bodied, 16.3 jumps great, pretty decent mover by hunter standards. Did very well on the A circuit.

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

[Tiki]

Personally, I can’t in my wildest imagination guess why you would want to use a stallion with the kind of movement he has for a hunter, but that’s jmho. Hunters are supposed to be flat, with a flat neck. He has a very upright neck and very, very, very good knee and hock action. Hunter??? huh???

[DownYonder]

I just replied on the Dressage forum, and I totally agree with Tiki. I cannot imagine using QB to produce a hunter!

[knowonder]

That was why I was asking–of course he does not have the movement that hunters are looking for, but he does look like a joy to ride. I could care less how I place in the hack if I have something that wonderful to ride that can jump around and get a ribbon over fences, hence my question as to whether it would be a workable cross or a complete disaster. Again I realize he is not a “hunter-type” sire–I am just asking if I can have the best of both worlds–you know like having your cake (a horse with those wonderful gaits) and eating it too (a horse that can jump around the hunter ring and get a ribbon).

[grayfox]

He has tons of movement and with the jump scores “not too horrible” I’m not sure if you would get something that even jumped good enough for the hunters and then what, a horse that didn’t jump or hack. But breeding is always an adventure and who knows.

[goodmorning]

How about Davingport, Donarweiss, DeNiro, or DaCaprio for dressage guys who would give you something that should be able to jump (not sure I would rely on them for the jump, but if your mare has it then they are worth looking into). I recently saw a DeLaurentis filly who was a lovely mover, and I think Rosenthal had something do well in the hunter-breeding ring, but not sure if he has anything going o/f yet.

ETA: Ruiz Soler is a very handsome guy currently competing in the hunters that is worth a look as well, probably more inclined to give you a nice jump and a nice mover then the above mentioned stallions, with the exception possibly of DeNiro.

[europa]

Let’s not forget the Beach Boy…and Zeus in the pedigree.

[knowonder]

That is essentially my question–is there enough “over fences” blood in his pedigree to warrant taking a chance. I promise I am not delusional enough to think that I am going to get a daisy cutting hack winner from this cross. But I would trade even showing in the hack for those fantastic, supple, elastic gaits if I could get a piece of the class over fences. I actually have a “hunter” stallion or two already picked out for this mare. I was trying to figure out if there was a chance I could get the best of both worlds with this cross–knowing I would be in all likelihood sacrificing any flat ribbons

Thanks so much for your replies!

[Tiki]

Sounds like you’ve already made up your mind, but whatever. If I were you, I would also think about resale. Not everyone wants a horse that can just jump around in the hunters. They have to do it with the right style, they have to get a piece of the hack, they have to have a smooth, steady go between fences and a quiet, smooth jump with their feet up to their eyeballs, not just something that ‘might do’.

[europa]

What is your mares pedigree and is that her pic in your profile?

Just as an aside have you looked at Westporte? PHENOM Hunter movement

[3Dogs]

There are many stallions to choose from that have jump, rideablity and better “hunter-type” movement (and even have offspring on the ground) than to go to a stallion like Quaterback, IMHO. Some were mentioned above, there are lots more out there. If I were looking for prospective hunter babies, I would not be inclined torwards a Quaterback foal.

[Sixth_Sense]

I have to agree that the chances of a hunter type foal are not as high although you never know what attributes the mare will contribute. That big, lofty and upright movement is usually the first to be lost significantly in an FI cross. The TB is very strong in passing on their flatter type movement so there is a chance but IMHO it would be slim. If you don’t mind the $$ involved and don’t need to sell the foal then go for it. Keep in mind that there are other dressage type stallions, with excellent temperaments and rideability that are proven producers of lovely hunter type movement. Rotspon is just one that comes to mind…

[Signature]

I am with you on this one and tempted to try the cross myself, interesting that you bring it up. The stallion many times does not pass the mechanics as most might think. The mare does matter a ton.

He is incredibly elastic and “slow legged” as the QH people call it, and we’ve found that our foals have always (and yes I say ALWAYS) taken after the mare in mechanics of movement. Our best moving mare has the best moving foal every year, and on down the line (worst moving mare = worst moving foal). I am sure someone will poo-poo me on this but we’ve found it every time. If mare is flat kneed, baby is flat kneed. If mare breaks at the fetlock, baby breaks at fetlock. Just watch a foal trot beside its mom and watch the mechanics. It may have slightly less knee, or slightly more, etc. but in general it is VERY similar. I am sure there are stallions out there VERY prepotent for adding knee (Sandro Hit, or what have you), or decreasing knee (Donatelli). Nothing is absolute.

To test this we had considered breeding one of our fabulous hunter moving mares to Quaterback to see if we could get that elasticity with the flat front end (if the semen wasn’t so darn expensive). The stallion does not have to move flat to produce flat. We had a Rosenthal foal last year (he does not move flat AT ALL) out of a flashy hunter mover which was a great, flat, elastic hunter mover. To me, it is the mare that matter more when considering movement. Novel idea, I know, but just watch some videos and really look. The stallion may improve the hind end, shoulder, etc, which increased elasticity and elevation, but the mechanics are mostly “mare” in our experience. I have never seen a 10 moving foal out of a crappy moving mare. I am sure it has happened but in that case you are breeding on “hope”.

If you want that big, lopey canter, and slow, reachy/swingy trot, you have to breed to something with tons of elasticity. That is what elasticity is! And yes, typically TB’s take away in this area.

It doesn’t matter what the stallion moves like himself but what he produces!

Look at the number of top hunters by Rubin Royal and then watch a video of him.

Westporte IS a stunning hunter mover. Watch a video of Wolkentanz, not near as flat.

Donatelli is a stunning hunter mover. Watch a video of Donnerhall.

Granted, neither Wolkentanz or Donnerhall have AS much action as Quaterback but I think it would be an interesting experiment. If you use a nice mare, worst case you end up with a beautiful dressage foal.

[PineTreeFarm]

@Signature;3154577

Look at the number of top hunters by Rubin Royal and then watch a video of him.

Could you provide some names please? I haven’t noticed Rubin Royal in the recent leading sire lists so I’m curious.

[YankeeLawyer]

I am a former A Circuit hunter rider and now breed horses for dressage. There is no way I would pick QB to produce a hunter, not a chance.

Regarding whether he looks fun to ride, I have to wonder if you have ever tried to sit an extravagant trot like that. It is not easy (there is a reason why “good” hunter movers have flat-kneed gaits). Some of the very best dressage movers are very hard for an amateur to sit.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Signature;3154577]
If you use a nice mare, worst case you end up with a beautiful dressage foal.[/QUOTE]

Bred to a hunter mare, I believe the worst case is a foal that neither moves well enough to do well in dressage nor has the jumping ability to do well as a hunter.

[goodmorning]

And if I am not mistaken, and please correct me if I am wrong, doesn’t QB have questionable front legs? I seem to remember people on this forum hoping that their mare would ‘keep the front legs correct.’ I may be way off base, but I’m not sure it is something I would risk for a hunter experimentation foal…

[grayfox]

Signature I’m with you on Rubin Royal. It’s a stallion I look for in Germany because some of them move like freaks.

[Signature]

I said, people will poo-poo me on this, so I am not concerned, just saying from my experience what I have seen. Quaterback is on the radical side so it may or may not work. It would just be an interesting test. I have not heard about the front legs. If that is true, I would not use him at all.

The leading sires list is what it is. Some of the leading sires are made up of one horse doing really well, so take it for what it’s worth. Some of the ones I have seen are not out showing so they wouldn’t be earning points for him. I am just telling you what I have seen.

I am sure people poo-pooed Ben Franklin when he was trying to discover electricity.

[monami]

PineTreeFarm- If you do hunters then you very well know that many times the breeding is never recorded and that many of the sires on the list have 1 or possibly 2 offspring that show a TON . A lot of people that import hunters look for horses by Rubin Royal, that is no big secret.