[QUOTE=alterhorse;7204182]
Why is that condescending?[/QUOTE]
You will weigh in only if the conversation is “deep” enough to warrant your attention? That means the rest of us are too shallow?
[QUOTE=Samotis;7204175]
Hunters have changes a lot since I started riding.
I had a junior hunter in the 90’s. he was a tb but pretty darn quiet. He had to be pretty slow to get down the lines but no where near what these horses look like now.
I took my baby to a show in California a month ago. I had my trainer show him on the grass in the jumpers the first few days and I entered myself in the a/a hunters.
I was shocked at the hunters in my class. First off, half the class was sleeping next to the ring with their grooms. They were barely cantering around the course and many of them probably could have done the course themselves. Any distance these horses all had the same expressions. To me they looked drugged. They were good looking horses but seemed NQR to me.
Granted my horse was in jumper mode day one and jumping 4 feet over everything, but day 2 he was super quiet and sooo good and I still didn’t get a better ribbon.
Now my horse is average size at 16.2, has a big step and is very green. Even being a tad wiggly in the lines I was having to pull to make the strides. I mean I was crawling!!!
The personality is completely gone from these horses and it is a shame. My goal is to just show in some derbies a few times a year as I can’t afford to show more then 4 times a year.
It would be nice to see better riders and non comatose horses, but maybe I am asking too much. :([/QUOTE]
The AAs are a 3ft division and that alone is going to majorly different from the 3’6 Jrs. It is also inherently a division filled with riders that do not have the skills to do 3’6 so you are going to have plenty of babysitter types. Don’t mistake me, there are plenty of very good riders, but it is also where many Adults with full time jobs plateau. It is the top of their skill set and they are happy, and SAFE, on their packers so I don’t see a reason to knock that. Going further on that note, many of their horses have stepped down from a higher division (or could do a higher division but their rider is most comfortable at 3ft) so with their giant steps they have to go much slower.
Don’t read into horses sleeping at the in-gate just because yours doesn’t yet. Those are mostly seasoned show horses who are standing still with minimal entertainment for a long time. What do you expect them to do? They get reprimanded for being too fidgety and if you have one that won’t settle then it’s not going to be standing at the gate anyway.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7204127]
Yes, but did you stay on? ;)[/QUOTE]
I did, with a standing ovation from the crowd! It was pretty hilarious. The rest of the course and the course leading up to that was perfect, of course. It wouldn’t be a great round without a little bit of hanging upside-down from your horse’s head.
Oh, I think it’s getting quite deep enough in here.
Soon it will require hip waders.
Some of my thoughts about the concept of jumping position effecting bascule…
Speculatively, I think a riders jumping method, and body weight manipulation, may influence both ballistic trajectory, and behavioral factors, of jumping horses.
The first principle of this hypothesis is based on the concept that a forward shift in rider weight will move the center of gravity of the “horse/rider unit” slightly forwards in the takeoff phase of jumping.
The ballistic principles for propelling (thrust) an object (projectile) onto a calculated trajectory will require that the propelling force be in alignment with the center of gravity of the propelled object along the calculated path of the trajectory .
Movement of the center of gravity in the “horse/rider unit”, must therefore require a recalculation of the force trajectory to achieve alinement.
If my hypothesis is correct, then a riders body position during the take off phase of jumping must influence the horses body orientation relative to the path of the horse/rider flight trajectory arc.
This shifting of the center of gravity is a factor of physics. But I think it may also have a potential to influence a horse behaviorally
The degree of mathematically calculated influence over a horses center of gravity may only be small, but I think the horse must also mentally factor this influence into his behavior in order to choose a successful trajectory over a jump.
If the rider exposes a horse to unpredictable variations in a forward weight shifting jumping technique. I think that the horse may modify it’s bascule to encompass the variable of not being able to predict exactly how much weight shift to expect from the rider before any given jump.
The horse will then over compensate for that center of gravity shift that it cannot predict, by choosing a trajectory and a bascule that will provide the horse with the ability to cope with the entire range of rider weight shifts that the horse may potentially need to compensate for.
I also speculate that horses traveling at higher velocities will have a greater force of momentum that will diminish a riders ability to effect the horses center of gravity through the use of forward weight shifting.
I think that this effect might only be noticeable when a horse is jumping at a slower pace where the horse must produce the majority of it’s forward jumping thrust by primarily using it’s musculature, and not factoring any substantial component of pre-existing momentum into it’s jumping trajectory.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7204329]
Oh, I think it’s getting quite deep enough in here.
Soon it will require hip waders.[/QUOTE]
Can Hunters be emblematic of a riders desire to accomplish something meaningful together with another living being?
Perhaps the bond required for the achievement is primary, and the shape that the discipline takes is only an arbitrary medium where one goes to obtain what is of true importance.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7204188]
You will weigh in only if the conversation is “deep” enough to warrant your attention? That means the rest of us are too shallow?[/QUOTE]
I think she’s joking, RugBug (and maybe even poking a little good-natured fun at herself), hence the winky face.
I think someone for got to take their meds. I am serious, if anyone actually knows this person, will you contact them? I am not being rude, I am being serious. Unless this person does not consider English as a first language I am very concerned. Please help this person if you know how rather than just keep using her as our amusement. tia,
Okay, sorry to be the Punctuation Police, but please embrace this fact:
“It’s” is the contraction of “it is.” The horse did not lose “it’s” shoe, it lost its shoe. Etc.
Thank you. And Loshad, I still have that earworm :lol:
[QUOTE=alterhorse;7204331]
Some of my thoughts about the concept of jumping position effecting bascule…
Speculatively, I think a riders jumping method, and body weight manipulation, may influence both ballistic trajectory, and behavioral factors, of jumping horses.
The first principle of this hypothesis is based on the concept that a forward shift in rider weight will move the center of gravity of the “horse/rider unit” slightly forwards in the takeoff phase of jumping.
The ballistic principles for propelling (thrust) an object (projectile) onto a calculated trajectory will require that the propelling force be in alignment with the center of gravity of the propelled object along the calculated path of the trajectory .
Movement of the center of gravity in the “horse/rider unit”, must therefore require a recalculation of the force trajectory to achieve alinement.
If my hypothesis is correct, then a riders body position during the take off phase of jumping must influence the horses body orientation relative to the path of the horse/rider flight trajectory arc.
This shifting of the center of gravity is a factor of physics. But I think it may also have a potential to influence a horse behaviorally
The degree of mathematically calculated influence over a horses center of gravity may only be small, but I think the horse must also mentally factor this influence into his behavior in order to choose a successful trajectory over a jump.
If the rider exposes a horse to unpredictable variations in a forward weight shifting jumping technique. I think that the horse may modify it’s bascule to encompass the variable of not being able to predict exactly how much weight shift to expect from the rider before any given jump.
The horse will then over compensate for that center of gravity shift that it cannot predict, by choosing a trajectory and a bascule that will provide the horse with the ability to cope with the entire range of rider weight shifts that the horse may potentially need to compensate for.
I also speculate that horses traveling at higher velocities will have a greater force of momentum that will diminish a riders ability to effect the horses center of gravity through the use of forward weight shifting.
I think that this effect might only be noticeable when a horse is jumping at a slower pace where the horse must produce the majority of it’s forward jumping thrust by primarily using it’s musculature, and not factoring any substantial component of pre-existing momentum into it’s jumping trajectory.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Coreene;7204570]
Okay, sorry to be the Punctuation Police, but please embrace this fact:
“It’s” is the contraction of “it is.” The horse did not lose “it’s” shoe, it lost its shoe. Etc.
Thank you. And Loshad, I still have that earworm :lol:[/QUOTE]
Dang, and I knew that one too. :no:
[QUOTE=GoneAway;7204604]
Oh my.[/QUOTE]
Now that’s just not constructively conversing about anything.
I provided a fine hypothesis, and I’d be very pleased if you might kindly explain what’s wrong with it.
Are denying that horses have a center of gravity?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_balance_(horse)
Ever ride a see-saw as a child?
Swing set maybe? You know those things that you sit on and shift your center of gravity to make it swing?
A Half halt from your core?
Loshad, I’m now singing the song out loud.
[QUOTE=loshad;7204499]
I think she’s joking, RugBug (and maybe even poking a little good-natured fun at herself), hence the winky face.[/QUOTE]
I hope so, but somehow I doubt it.
[QUOTE=alterhorse;7204331]Some of my thoughts about the concept of jumping position effecting bascule…
Speculatively, I think a riders jumping method, and body weight manipulation, may influence both ballistic trajectory, and behavioral factors, of jumping horses.
The first principle of this hypothesis is based on the concept that a forward shift in rider weight will move the center of gravity of the “horse/rider unit” slightly forwards in the takeoff phase of jumping.
The ballistic principles for propelling (thrust) an object (projectile) onto a calculated trajectory will require that the propelling force be in alignment with the center of gravity of the propelled object along the calculated path of the trajectory .
Movement of the center of gravity in the “horse/rider unit”, must therefore require a recalculation of the force trajectory to achieve alinement.
If my hypothesis is correct, then a riders body position during the take off phase of jumping must influence the horses body orientation relative to the path of the horse/rider flight trajectory arc.
This shifting of the center of gravity is a factor of physics. But I think it may also have a potential to influence a horse behaviorally
The degree of mathematically calculated influence over a horses center of gravity may only be small, but I think the horse must also mentally factor this influence into his behavior in order to choose a successful trajectory over a jump.
If the rider exposes a horse to unpredictable variations in a forward weight shifting jumping technique. I think that the horse may modify it’s bascule to encompass the variable of not being able to predict exactly how much weight shift to expect from the rider before any given jump.
The horse will then over compensate for that center of gravity shift that it cannot predict, by choosing a trajectory and a bascule that will provide the horse with the ability to cope with the entire range of rider weight shifts that the horse may potentially need to compensate for.[/QUOTE]
I think you just argued FOR jumping up the neck. 
I think you have this backwards. Shifts in weight at higher velocity will have more of in impact. For example, throwing your weight to the side at a full gallop will have more of an affect than doing the same thing at a walk. Moment of inertia and all that physics mumbo jumbo that I’ve mostly forgotten.
Coreene, you made me self-conscious. I had to go back and check all my its and it’s. 
I’m also super paranoid about using affect and effect incorrectly. I’m sure I have…
[QUOTE=Coreene;7204570]
Thank you. And Loshad, I still have that earworm :lol:[/QUOTE]
Would you like another one? I can totally make that happen for you. 
[QUOTE=RugBug;7204644]
I hope so, but somehow I doubt it.
I think you just argued FOR jumping up the neck.
I think you have this backwards. Shifts in weight at higher velocity will have more of in impact. For example, throwing your weight to the side at a full gallop will have more of an affect than doing the same thing at a walk. Moment of inertia and all that physics mumbo jumboe I have…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think this is true.
To ride a bike without falling over, you have to go fast. If you are too slow, it topples over because the speed isn’t high enough to overcome small balance issues.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7204773]
I don’t think this is true.
To ride a bike without falling over, you have to go fast. If you are too slow, it topples over because the speed isn’t high enough to overcome small balance issues.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever seen many cyclists at stop lights? They stay upright with no feet on the ground and don’t even move.
The key is keeping the system (rider and bike) center of gravity in line with the system center of center of mass. It has nothing to do with speed. The same goes with horses.
For beginners, yes, speed on a bike helps because the gyroscopic action of the wheels aides the rider until they can control their center of mass and gravity.
I suggest reading Dr. Clayton’s (MST School of Vet Med.) studies on the dynamics of horses jumping.
[QUOTE=RAyers;7205075]
Have you ever seen many cyclists at stop lights? They stay upright with no feet on the ground and don’t even move.
The key is keeping the system (rider and bike) center of gravity in line with the system center of center of mass. It has nothing to do with speed. The same goes with horses.
For beginners, yes, speed on a bike helps because the gyroscopic action of the wheels aides the rider until they can control their center of mass and gravity.
I suggest reading Dr. Clayton’s (MST School of Vet Med.) studies on the dynamics of horses jumping.[/QUOTE]
So basically, for less advanced/balanced [bike] riders, maintaining momentum aides the [bike] rider until they can better control their center of mass and gravity? But when they get more advanced, physics is different?
Personally I have never seen a cyclist stop at a light with both feet on the pedals. Everyone I have ever seen, bike and motorcycle alike, has had one foot down.
ETA:
Consulted a PhD in Astrophysics on the question and the response was:
"any troglodtye can stay upright at speed, but you have to be f*cking amazing to do it at rest
aka angular momentum conservation"
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7204773]
I don’t think this is true.
To ride a bike without falling over, you have to go fast. If you are too slow, it topples over because the speed isn’t high enough to overcome small balance issues.[/QUOTE]
Yes…if only a horse were like a bicycle. But a bicycle cannot balance on its two wheels at a standstill. A horse can balance on its four legs just fine.
RAyers also pointed out that a cyclist CAN balance at a stop (track stand), however, it’s still not analogous.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7205108]
So basically, for less advanced/balanced [bike] riders, maintaining momentum aides the [bike] rider until they can better control their center of mass and gravity? But when they get more advanced, physics is different?
Personally I have never seen a cyclist stop at a light with both feet on the pedals. Everyone I have ever seen, bike and motorcycle alike, has had one foot down.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, I Youtube’d cyclists balancing without putting their feet down. It’s possible, but doesn’t look like a leisurely activity you’d want to do at a stoplight.
Anyway, I digress…I too am interested in a bit more clarification on the speed vs. balance/center of gravity thing. I know from learning to ride a bike that attempting to pedal super slowly results in a ton of wiggling and unbalancedness but once you hit that sweet spot, suddenly the bike just goes straight.
RAyers, let me know if I am picking up what you’re putting down.
Bikes relate to horses in the way that if you have absolutely zero pace and are riding the head, the horse is going to be crooked, you’re more likely to pull on one rein or the other, see saw, etc. and the jumps are never going to come up quite right, whereas once you establish pace and rhythm, you can just keep a steady feel, maintain straightness and ride the horse’s tail, and therefore are more likely to find the jumps.
Then, to relate to the experienced cyclist thing, it can a beneficial exercise for an educated rider to practice doing poles/small gymnastics etc. off of a very slow, collected canter, but the uneducated rider would just find this exercise to be a detriment, as they have not yet learned that collection comes from the seat and leg (or, as you put it, they don’t yet understand where their center of gravity is).
If that’s what we’re talking about now, I think I can get on board with that theory. If that’s not what RAyers meant, then not only has alterhorse lost me, he has as well.
