Hunters - What Are They REALLY All About?

[meupatdoes]

@Goldie locks;7203871

I actually was asking for videos of people that are discussing this subject to see if they can even stay on a horse.

In that case, your turn.
If you are going to demand videos to determine whether or not people are worth talking to, feel free to put out yourself.

[QUOTE=Goldie locks;7203871]
But after watching your videos, yeah, you have too long of a rein most of the time and push down on your horses neck a bit over the jump. Your are not laying on his neck as the question was asked. This is NOT creating bascule and neither does laying on their neck. This is like when you are flatting and you use your leg into your hand. You are balancing your horse in a different way. Both those horses do not jump any better by pressing your hands into his neck. They still jump average.[/QUOTE]

What I notice is that in the second video on the chestnut, where I am not focusing on pressing the crest or lowering his neck, I tend to come back to the cantle a little early on the descent. Rather than letting the horse finish his jump, I am catching him just a skitch early. Since I don’t have this problem so much in the grey horse video, perhaps if I keep in mind to “press the crest” in the future, it may help me to give my horse room to finish his jump better.

In the lesson on the grey horse I was instructed to “press on his neck.” Not “throw myself onto” his neck, but to “press on” it.
Whether this is effective directly by helping the horse understand from the pressure physically on his neck, or indirectly by causing me to ride the back half of the arc better and leave him more room, is up for grabs, …but regardless I would like in future rides to fix that mistake I see in the second video of opening up a bit too early. So I will try to remind myself to “press on the neck” more -since when I "press on the neck’ more, I don’t seem to open up too early. I see a better ride when I am carrying that thought around the course with me.

[RugBug]

Riding the neck down to the ground*, or really just completing the jump…staying off the horse’s back and maintaining a release, does have an affect. When you sit down or bring your hands back early, the horse tends to hollow their back, lift their head and brace.

ETA: Just read meup’s last post…and agree with her assessment of her rides in both. The ride on the grey is better. The chestnut is objecting to her sitting opening up to soon.

*I don’t really like this term as sounds like you stay forward over the neck when in reality, you just want to stay centered over the horse, stay off their back and keep your hands forward.

[Goldie_locks]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7203878]

What I notice is that in the second video on the chestnut, where I am not focusing on pressing the crest or lowering his neck, I tend to come back to the cantle a little early on the descent. Rather than letting the horse finish his jump, I am catching him just a skitch early. Since I don’t have this problem so much in the grey horse video, perhaps if I keep in mind to “press the crest” in the future, it may help me to give my horse room to finish his jump better.

In the lesson on the grey horse I was instructed to “press on his neck.” Not “throw myself onto” his neck, but to “press on” it.
Whether this is effective directly by helping the horse understand from the pressure physically on his neck, or indirectly by causing me to ride the back half of the arc better and leave him more room, is up for grabs, …but regardless I would like in future rides to fix that mistake I see in the second video of opening up a bit too early. So I will try to remind myself to “press on the neck” more -since when I "press on the neck’ more, I don’t seem to open up too early. I see a better ride when I am carrying that thought around the course with me.[/QUOTE]

Yes you can help your horse jump better as you have said. I am on the same page with you on this. Isn’t that what we all want? The horse to jump it’s best and you want the Hunter to finish his jump and this does depend on how the rider rides the horse.

But those that say when a rider lays on a horses neck to improve it’s bascule really doesn’t make sense.

I don’t have video. I rode before such a device was popular. So then my thoughts on this subject are not credible.

[doublesstable]

@Goldie locks;7203917

Yes you can help your horse jump better as you have said. I am on the same page with you on this. Isn’t that what we all want? The horse to jump it’s best and you want the Hunter to finish his jump and this does depend on how the rider rides the horse.

I think after reading this ^ and meupatdoes post and videos; seems clear that rider does affect the horse’s jump. It can help the horse jump it’s best but will not make a ox jump like a top hunter.

[goodlife]

Since this thread now requires video footage to voice an opinion, I hereby submit myself, demonstrating why laying on the neck not only does not produce good bascule, but in fact, makes jumping very difficult at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr8BpBUfbQQ

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=goodlife;7204069]
Since this thread now requires video footage to voice an opinion, I hereby submit myself, demonstrating why laying on the neck not only does not produce good bascule, but in fact, makes jumping very difficult at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr8BpBUfbQQ[/QUOTE]

Haha! awesome!

BTW, I have never heard someone say that laying on the neck produces a better jump until this thread. I’ve heard many people say it’s theatrics or that it doesn’t matter because the horse is jumping nicely anyway (this is usually in a thread about bad equitation from some pro), but never that it is done to produce a better jump.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7204074]
Haha! awesome!

BTW, I have never heard someone say that laying on the neck produces a better jump until this thread. I’ve heard many people say it’s theatrics or that it doesn’t matter because the horse is jumping nicely anyway (this is usually in a thread about bad equitation from some pro), but never that it is done to produce a better jump.[/QUOTE]

Well what was actually said was putting some WEIGHT on the neck can possibly help, which is not necessarily the same thing as grabbing the ears and being superman.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7204077]
Well what was actually said was putting some WEIGHT on the neck can possibly help, which is not necessarily the same thing as grabbing the ears and being superman.[/QUOTE]

Interesting as I was taught to weight my hands on my horse’s neck to get the to FLATTEN across a wide fence on cross country. How can the same idea result in two different responses?

It is my experience that hands on the neck and allowing the rein to slip will encourage a flatter jump as evidenced by steeplechase, XC, timber racing and hunting.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7204077]
Well what was actually said was putting some WEIGHT on the neck can possibly help, which is not necessarily the same thing as grabbing the ears and being superman.[/QUOTE]

This, I’ve heard.

@alterhorse

If a rider is throwing their weight on the horses neck to effect it’s bascule, then that’s not the horses natural bascule, and not a true judgement of the horses ability.

This, I have not…and what I was referring to.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=RAyers;7204083]
Interesting as I was taught to weight my hands on my horse’s neck to get the to FLATTEN across a wide fence on cross country. How can the same idea result in two different responses?

It is my experience that hands on the neck and allowing the rein to slip will encourage a flatter jump as evidenced by steeplechase, XC, timber racing and hunting.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain how? I would think hands on the neck with a slipping rein would allow the horse to jump however it felt it needed to, round or flat. Also, flatness of a particular jump would seem to be more a factor of the speed, impulsion, balance and specific jumping style of that particular horse. For example, a splinter bellied jumper will probably never jump round, except in extreme cases, but a round jumper might jump fairly flat if going at quite a clip like a steeplechase or timber horse.

[GoneAway]

There is a point regarding speed and the arc of a jump affecting a horse’s bascule. I wouldn’t ever expect a steeplechaser, event horse, timber horse or field hunter to jump perfectly round like a great show hunter (field hunters to some extent, but depending on the fence/approach. Not happening every jump). I assisted with steeplechase horses for awhile and don’t think I saw any of them jump round in training, except for the jump school gymnastics in the ring…jump schools over race fences? Nope. Flat and fast. A horse at speed isn’t going to be be slow off the ground like a show hunter. Different speed, different arc, different shape. So I think it’s difficult to compare those types of jumpers to a top show hunter. Apples to oranges.

ETA: Is the pressing of the neck for the follow through on the landing side? Because if it’s over the top of the fence, I agree with RAyers that doesn’t make sense. I would think a true following hand with the rider well off the neck would allow the horse the most freedom. I can see pressing on the landing side though (don’t agree with it, I prefer something much more old school, but that’s just my preference).

[axl]

[QUOTE=Goldie locks;7203871]
I actually was asking for videos of people that are discussing this subject to see if they can even stay on a horse.[/QUOTE]

@Goldie locks;7203917

I don’t have video. I rode before such a device was popular. So then my thoughts on this subject are not credible.

Goldie, I’m going to let your hypocrisy to speak for itself. goodlife, I applaud anyone who can laugh at herself!

meupatdoes, I found your videos interesting and the peanut gallery in the comments unbelievable. Wow. Just…wow.

hey, now that we seem to be having a substantive discussion, where did alterhorse go? I guess actual theory doesn’t hold a candle to hot air

[goodlife]

@axl;7204112

Goldie, I’m going to let your hypocrisy to speak for itself. goodlife, I applaud anyone who can laugh at herself!

Well, when you do things as hilarious as that, that’s about all you can do. :lol:

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=GoneAway;7204108]

Having said that, and having been out of show hunters for several years, I don’t think I will ever buy the idea that one has to push down on the neck to “follow through.” I just don’t see how this ever went out of style. Or this. Seems like a beautifully round, free jump to me. But maybe the horses breathed fire and ate the judges on the landing side, who knows. I’m sure there will be a dozen or so posts after this that will explain the need for weight on a horse’s neck, but it’s probably already been explained a few thousand times (read most of them, so please save yourself the novel). I just will never see that as a necessary or attractive thing to do, though I’m sure explanations will tell me it has everything to do with the current show hunter and hyper emphasizing attributes in the show ring. But I’m not Scott Stewart or John French, so my opinion here probably doesn’t matter. Press on.[/QUOTE]

Really? You post Puissance pictures to prove your point? That’s kind of apples and oranges, too, don’t ya think? A horse at its maximum effort is probably going to be pretty round, not matter what the rider on its back is doing (although the rider is going to factor into the success of their effort at that point).

Pushing down into the neck, IMO, is more about letting the horse finish its jump undisturbed rather than actually influencing the jump by pushing the neck down. It’s more about influencing the rider than the horse…again IMO.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=goodlife;7204114]
Well, when you do things as hilarious as that, that’s about all you can do. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Yes, but did you stay on?

[GoneAway]

@RugBug;7204125

Really? You post Puissance pictures to prove your point? That’s kind of apples and oranges, too, don’t ya think? A horse at its maximum effort is probably going to be pretty round, not matter what the rider on its back is doing (although the rider is going to factor into the success of their effort at that point).

So…the rider does or does not affect the jump? Yes, I realized the puissance thing and revised my post, but not before you nabbed it, so please explain that bit.

Pushing down into the neck, IMO, is more about letting the horse finish its jump undisturbed rather than actually influencing the jump by pushing the neck down. It’s more about influencing the rider than the horse…again IMO.

This is perhaps what I don’t get about pushing down as a means of enhancing the entire jumping effort, and perhaps you and I have a different definition of “undisturbed.” To me, undisturbed is not causing the horse to be hollow, but also not adding additional weight on the landing side. In balance.

[alterhorse]

[QUOTE=axl;7204112]
Goldie, I’m going to let your hypocrisy to speak for itself. goodlife, I applaud anyone who can laugh at herself!

meupatdoes, I found your videos interesting and the peanut gallery in the comments unbelievable. Wow. Just…wow.

hey, now that we seem to be having a substantive discussion, where did alterhorse go? I guess actual theory doesn’t hold a candle to hot air ;)[/QUOTE]

Actually, I’m waiting to see how deeply this subject will be discussed before I contribute my own thoughts in an attempt to deepen it further…

I also want to try to present my ideas as clearly and as well written as I can, and that means not writing off the top of my head as I usually do.

meupatdoes provided an excellent structural template for presenting ideas, and I want to try and practice using it.

Stay tuned…

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=GoneAway;7204144]
So…the rider does or does not affect the jump? Yes, I realized the puissance thing and revised my post, but not before you nabbed it, so please explain that bit.[/QUOTE]

When a horse is jumping close to its max, the rider has a LOT more influence. Just like someone jumping ahead over a crossrail isn’t going to be much of a factor, that same person climbing up the neck over 7’ is going to become a HUGE factor in the success of the jump.

We all know a rider can influence the jump in certain ways. Can a balanced rider pressing down on a neck over 3’6" make the horse complete its jump? Probably…but the same rider jumping ahead (a.k.a unbalanced) over 3’6" is probably going to negate any good that could happen…unless of course the horse is scopey enough that 3’6" is merely a crossrail to it.

This is perhaps what I don’t get about pushing down as a means of enhancing the entire jumping effort, and perhaps you and I have a different definition of “undisturbed.” To me, undisturbed is not causing the horse to be hollow, but also not adding additional weight on the landing side. In balance.

Nope, I mean being in balance as well…but you can push into the neck and still be in balance…that is, if your hands are independent from your body, which they should be.

@alterhorse;7204145

Actually, I’m waiting to see how deeply this subject will be discussed before I contribute my own thoughts in an attempt to deepen it further…

Wow…that is beyond condescending.

[Samotis]

Hunters have changes a lot since I started riding.

I had a junior hunter in the 90’s. he was a tb but pretty darn quiet. He had to be pretty slow to get down the lines but no where near what these horses look like now.

I took my baby to a show in California a month ago. I had my trainer show him on the grass in the jumpers the first few days and I entered myself in the a/a hunters.

I was shocked at the hunters in my class. First off, half the class was sleeping next to the ring with their grooms. They were barely cantering around the course and many of them probably could have done the course themselves. Any distance these horses all had the same expressions. To me they looked drugged. They were good looking horses but seemed NQR to me.

Granted my horse was in jumper mode day one and jumping 4 feet over everything, but day 2 he was super quiet and sooo good and I still didn’t get a better ribbon.

Now my horse is average size at 16.2, has a big step and is very green. Even being a tad wiggly in the lines I was having to pull to make the strides. I mean I was crawling!!!

The personality is completely gone from these horses and it is a shame. My goal is to just show in some derbies a few times a year as I can’t afford to show more then 4 times a year.

It would be nice to see better riders and non comatose horses, but maybe I am asking too much.

[alterhorse]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7204160]

Wow…that is beyond condescending.[/QUOTE]

Why is that condescending?