Hunters - What Are They REALLY All About?

[goodlife]

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7202695]
I think the Romans may have hunted wild boar on horse back.

Perhaps the Romans had an influence on hunting during their occupation of Britain, and the fall of the empire effected the evolution of hunting?[/QUOTE]

Well in that case, I’d just like to take this moment to thank Caesar for losing his marbles and allowing me to spend all my money on frivolous sport, having absolutely no bearing on human survival.

I hate hunting and although I’m pretty certain I’ve never seen a wild boar, I’m also pretty certain that it wouldn’t be my cup of tea. Much prefer the line-diagonal-single-line crowd.

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=axl;7202624]

There’s no reason why hunters are necessary for survival, but there’s the intrinsic element boiled down for you.[/QUOTE]

There’s no necessity in a LOT of the things we do, equine and not, but we do them because they’re fun and we enjoy them. I mean, once upon a time man domesticated dogs to help him hunt and to guard his home and livestock. My dog does none of these things, but that doesn’t make me value her any less.

Same thing with the horses–our disciplines have come a long way from where they started, or even where they were 10 or 20 years ago. Hunters are about putting in a smooth, stylish, rhythmical round that looks effortless. That shows off a well-trained horse, just in a different way than a dressage test of cross country course, and none of them in a way that matters to anyone but the people enjoying them.

Are there things that could be changed for the better in Hunters? Yes, but that’s true of any discipline. I like hunters, and grew up doing them. While my horse has the jump for them, she doesn’t naturally have the quiet, steady way of going, so we event, where she can carry herself a bit more up and forward. It’s a different set of skills, but when I’m riding my show jumping course, you better believe my goal every time out is to make it feel like an eq round. And my dressage lessons have improved all of it.

[Foxtrot_s]

Oh - and part of what the hunners are REALLY about is the business of showing - show management, fees, training, tack, sales (commissions)…

[doublesstable]

@alterhorse;7202628

If history changed and the Hunter discipline hadn’t come into existence, you or someone like you might still enjoy horses for those same reasons, the style of riding might be all that changed.

Hmmm… I don’t know if I understand this comment but if it counts I rode a Appaloosa as a kid in the Hunters and Indians used them as their transportation to get meals and during war times. And as a kid without a drivers license I rode my Appy through McDonalds drive thru for a meal. I think that was very intrinsic of me

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7202628]
I agree that top riders of practically any discipline will likely share a similar understanding of fundamental horsemanship.

I think the interesting questions concern the style of riding, and it’s propensity for changing over time.[/QUOTE]

So what do you think of the style of riding in the Hunters and it’s propensity? And how has it changed?

[dogchushu]

Sheesh! And my instructor tells me I overthink things.

Pretty sure my horse doesn’t care if he’s recognizing his potential or doing anything necessary for human survival. If he could talk, he’d probably say “whatever, where’s my carrot?”

[alterhorse]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;7203009]

So what do you think of the style of riding in the Hunters and it’s propensity? And how has it changed?[/QUOTE]

I really like Hunter Derbies, that style looks natural to me. I like to see expression from the horses, and the riders fixing issues that horses will normally have when responding to their surroundings.

I don’t like crest releases unless they’re used as a genuine need for support due to some reasonable need.

I don’t like to see riders perching and balancing on the horses neck over the fences. I think of perching that as a fashion statement, and contrary to a core philosophy of balance.

If a rider is throwing their weight on the horses neck to effect it’s bascule, then that’s not the horses natural bascule, and not a true judgement of the horses ability.

I like cadence between fences, but I would like to see a quicker pace, and if the tempo was to change without effecting the quality of cadence, I would reward that.

I wish the riders were judged together with the horses.

I see a propensity for change in hunters in two directions.

1. The sport will become more of a fashion show and less of a riding contest.

2. The sport will become more tolerant of different horse types, and each horse and rider pair will be judged according to their ability using a scoring scale as is done in eventing and dressage. Ability will be judged on classical horsemanship philosophy, and not things done purely for fashion (from the riding aspect, not the riders attire). The courses could also include more challenging lines depending on the level, and the fences could differ in height.

I like equitation tests, and if they were incorporated into Hunters I think that would be cool. Let them ride each others horses in certain classes.

[axl]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7202930]
Awesome post overall, but your cerebellum could be functioning and you could still be in a vegetative state.
It’s your cerebrum that you are using so well.
(can’t help myself–I teach A&P)[/QUOTE]

Ha, I wasn’t sure about that Ghazzu, and normally I would look it up to make sure I was using the correct word but, given the context, I thought the wrong word would be just as appropriate

[axl]

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7203132]

If a rider is throwing their weight on the horses neck to effect it’s bascule, then that’s not the horses natural bascule, and not a true judgement of the horses ability.[/QUOTE]

Wow, finally something in one of your words-by-the-pound diatribes that is intellectually stimulating! First, I’m quite positive you meant AFFECT, but in this extraordinary sentence EFFECT almost works [Think of affect as influencing or changing whereas effect is more causing to happen]

Now, an interesting question is whether anyone else agrees with this statement, which truly never occurred to me. I’ve always considered the current fad for throwing oneself forward was either to a) give the impression that the exceptional back-cracking jump pushes the rider out of the tack (which it would me!) or b) to interfere as little as possible and encourage a brilliant follow-through with the hindquarters.

What does everyone else think?

[meupatdoes]

^I remember a lesson I took with a MAJOR hunter judge’s barn where I was told to really press on the neck to help the horse understand to keep his neck down more on the backside of the arc and follow through.

To really press you have actually stand off the neck a little from your arms so just laying there is less insistant, imo.

I don’t do it every jump but I do keep the idea in my back pocket just in case.

[Halt_Near_X]

alterhorse, that last post is one that can generate actual discussion.

This isn’t the first time I’ve heard someone say putting weight over the neck/shoulders will artificially influence the bascule. I wasn’t convinced by the argument or the way the fences rode like that, but I rarely jump any more and feel I’m too far out of actual experience to comment beyond the fact that I’ve heard that argument made.

[wishfulthinking711]

If a rider is throwing their weight on the horses neck to effect it’s bascule, then that’s not the horses natural bascule, and not a true judgement of the horses ability.

Never even thought about this before but should make for an interesting discussion. I am interested in hearing what others have to say about this.

On another note I have read this whole thread and my brain now hurts although I think alterhorse has taken the backlash and criticism very nicely and professionally.

[axl]

^yes, alterhorse seems oblivious to criticism, both positive and negative, yet seemingly embraces some advice on writing. Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice.

[Goldie_locks]

@alterhorse;7203132

If a rider is throwing their weight on the horses neck to effect it’s bascule, then that’s not the horses natural bascule, and not a true judgement of the horses ability.

So how would one throw their weight on a horses neck to affect the bascule?
I would say a large percentage of these A judges didn’t just fall of the turnip truck and can see if the horse jumps well or not.

Until I see videos of those that want to discuss this subject further of how they ride a jump. I will leave the subjective thoughts to the scientists.

So how would that work any scientists out there?

[HunterRider992]

What I want to know is how changing your jumping position to make your horse “appear” to jump better is different from changing your ride on the flat to make your horse “appear” to move better. I don’t know about you, but my goal is to ride in such a way that it presents my horse to his best advantage both jumping and in the hack. Does that mean he’s not showing his natural ability because I’ve enhanced what’s there?

IMO, it’s about taking the raw talent and training it to become a beautiful hunter, like you would cut and polish a diamond. You can enhance what’s there but you can’t make a diamond out of dirt.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=Goldie locks;7203426]
So how would one throw their weight on a horses neck to affect the bascule?
I would say a large percentage of these A judges didn’t just fall of the turnip truck and can see if the horse jumps well or not.

Until I see videos of those that want to discuss this subject further of how they ride a jump. I will leave the subjective thoughts to the scientists.

So how would that work any scientists out there?[/QUOTE]

Well, you can evaluate for yourself since I have an old video of that lesson I was referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBI5S9PFW2g&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That is actually clips from three lessons back when that horse was in his first month of learning to jump. Maybe his 6th/7th/8th short jump schools.

Several years later, a different horse on his maybe 20th jump school, that ride did not specifically emphasize that technique but see if you can tell where/whether I was remembering that old advice or forgetting it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9q-EXvZ_5w&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7203132]
I really like Hunter Derbies, that style looks natural… I like equitation tests, and if they were incorporated into Hunters I think that would be cool. Let them ride each others horses in certain classes. :)[/QUOTE]

After watching wayyyy too many eq, hunter and jumper rounds over the last few weeks I started to ponder why there isn’t a combined hunter-jumper division. Ride over a jumper course and get judged both by your faults and the horse’s form and way of going. Maybe it could be based on optimal time. I think it would be highly beneficial to the lower level jumper riders to have to get every lead change clean and ride smoothly, straight without swaps trying to get the best jump out of their horses while still jumping the more complicated jumper courses and doing a neat/handy jump-off.

[Goldie_locks]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7203488]
Well, you can evaluate for yourself since I have an old video of that lesson I was referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBI5S9PFW2g&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That is actually clips from three lessons back when that horse was in his first month of learning to jump. Maybe his 6th/7th/8th short jump schools.

Several years later, a different horse on his maybe 20th jump school, that ride did not specifically emphasize that technique but see if you can tell where/whether I was remembering that old advice or forgetting it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9q-EXvZ_5w&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/QUOTE]

Cute horse.

But do you think throwing yourself on the horses neck will make them change their jump?

The only thing I see in the ring but I live in the sticks is BNT get in habits because they ride so many horses a day and just need to be effective.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7203132]

2. The sport will become more tolerant of different horse types, and each horse and rider pair will be judged according to their ability using a scoring scale as is done in eventing and dressage. Ability will be judged on classical horsemanship philosophy, and not things done purely for fashion (from the riding aspect, not the riders attire).[/QUOTE]

You do realize that there are things done in dressage for sure…and probably eventing as well…that are purely for fashion, right? For instance, these crazy extravagant movers, like Totillas. Just give it time and we are going to start seeing a lot more bizarre movers…not just a one off here or there, but people are going to start breeding for it…and possibly training for it. I mean, there is a whole bag of tricks from the saddlebreds and TWH’s that hasn’t even been explored yet to get that crazy leg flinging.

Or what about head bobbing and heel bouncing? Thankfully we are seeing less of that these days. It’s U-G-L-Y and unnecessary.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=Goldie locks;7203832]
Cute horse.

But do you think throwing yourself on the horses neck will make them change their jump?

The only thing I see in the ring but I live in the sticks is BNT get in habits because they ride so many horses a day and just need to be effective.[/QUOTE]

I showed you two videos, of two different horses being schooled in a developmental stage. They grey horse’s ride was specifically focused to encourage a lowered neck in the bascule on the day (thus the neck pressing and see also, the landing rail after the oxer), the other’s was not.

Look at the videos and see if you can tell a difference in rider horse or both, and where the difference is. If you want to evaluate for yourself whether you think the two different rides make a difference, here is a sample set.

Personally, I can see one difference that I think is worth keeping in mind for the next ride. (Which is why I ask people to video tape lessons. So I can watch, rewatch, compare, and learn.)

But, you are the one who asked for videos to better compare the two approaches.
They have been provided.
What do you see?

[Goldie_locks]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7203857]
I showed you two videos, of two different horses being schooled in a developmental stage. They grey horse’s ride was specifically focused to encourage a lowered neck in the bascule on the day (thus the neck pressing and see also, the landing rail after the oxer), the other’s was not.

Look at the videos and see if you can tell a difference in rider horse or both, and where the difference is. If you want to evaluate for yourself whether you think the two different rides make a difference, here is a sample set.

Personally, I can see one difference that I think is worth keeping in mind for the next ride. (Which is why I ask people to video tape lessons. So I can watch, rewatch, compare, and learn.)

But, you are the one who asked for videos to better compare the two approaches.
They have been provided.
What do you see?[/QUOTE]

I actually was asking for videos of people that are discussing this subject to see if they can even stay on a horse.

But after watching your videos, yeah, you have too long of a rein most of the time and push down on your horses neck a bit over the jump. Your are not laying on his neck as the question was asked. This is NOT creating bascule and neither does laying on their neck. This is like when you are flatting and you use your leg into your hand. You are balancing your horse in a different way. Both those horses do not jump any better by pressing your hands into his neck. They still jump average.