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Hunters - What Are They REALLY All About?

Hunter/Jumper
#141

Ok, I think I have it: today’s show hunter is not at all similar to the fox hunter of yore. There may even be genetic altering going on!!11! And people don’t understand that this evolution happened- they are somehow believing the illusion that their fat, unbalanced, drugged show hunter could make it across a hunt field without keeling over. SCANDAL!!1!!ONE!11!

Now that we have distilled at least some of the (desired) meaning out of this thought-exercise, I’d like to point out one thing: this has been discussed before. A LOT. It’s nearly a weekly occurrence on this board, actually. No one is under any illusions, and I kind of doubt that the HPs are back in the lab tinkering with horse genes to…um, what are they supposed to be doing?

If you don’t like show hunters: fine. No problem! If you think they should be able to fox hunt, go get yourself a nice multitasker and join Trixie in her multitasking with Wings. I hack out my jumpers, I ride XC, I do a ton of dressage work, and I prefer the show ring to the hunt field or the event course. It’s a choice I made and no one is under any illusions about any of it. I believe I am the norm.

Listen, I am a professor- so here is a helpful pro-tip for you. Not only do I have to read a lot of things that hopeful first years write, I’ve been in your position as the aspiring philosopher. Believe me I love to blather. I can write enormous amounts of nothing, using all of the words. However, I don’t do this because, as Losh says, big words and involved sentences aren’t super-impressive, they are just annoying, particularly when the words are used incorrectly.

#142

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7202210]
Perhaps you should do your own work and identify which argument it is that you made which you feel is strongest and most pertinent to the subject of this thread, and then tell us all why we should agree with your assessment.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ChelseaR;7202291]If you are looking for ‘function’ you won’t find it here. Other than a small percentage of true working horses, horses are an entertainment industry.

There is no true practical purpose to any horse sport, including the SRS, eventing, field hunting etc. Is there a function to football? What does baseball represent? Or golf?

If you want to be a purest perhaps you need to start riding western as one of the few ‘real functions’ in the sense you seem to be using the term left to the horse can be found in a western ranch horse.

Should we all model our disciplines after the ranch horse? Or maybe Amish driving? Or work horses log pulling in hard to reach areas?

After all everything else is just a derivative of a long obsolete original function.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=foursocks;7202375]Ok, I think I have it: today’s show hunter is not at all similar to the fox hunter of yore. There may even be genetic altering going on!!11! And people don’t understand that this evolution happened- they are somehow believing the illusion that their fat, unbalanced, drugged show hunter could make it across a hunt field without keeling over. SCANDAL!!1!!ONE!11!

Now that we have distilled at least some of the (desired) meaning out of this thought-exercise, I’d like to point out one thing: this has been discussed before. A LOT. It’s nearly a weekly occurrence on this board, actually. No one is under any illusions, and I kind of doubt that the HPs are back in the lab tinkering with horse genes to…um, what are they supposed to be doing?

If you don’t like show hunters: fine. No problem! If you think they should be able to fox hunt, go get yourself a nice multitasker and join Trixie in her multitasking with Wings. I hack out my jumpers, I ride XC, I do a ton of dressage work, and I prefer the show ring to the hunt field or the event course. It’s a choice I made and no one is under any illusions about any of it. I believe I am the norm.

Listen, I am a professor- so here is a helpful pro-tip for you. Not only do I have to read a lot of things that hopeful first years write, I’ve been in your position as the aspiring philosopher. Believe me I love to blather. I can write enormous amounts of nothing, using all of the words. However, I don’t do this because, as Losh says, big words and involved sentences aren’t super-impressive, they are just annoying, particularly when the words are used incorrectly.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for being clear and helping me understand what the issue is.

#143

[QUOTE=ChelseaR;7202291]
If you are looking for ‘function’ you won’t find it here. Other than a small percentage of true working horses, horses are an entertainment industry.

There is no true practical purpose to any horse sport, including the SRS, eventing, field hunting etc. Is there a function to football? What does baseball represent? Or golf?

If you want to be a purest perhaps you need to start riding western as one of the few ‘real functions’ in the sense you seem to be using the term left to the horse can be found in a western ranch horse.

Should we all model our disciplines after the ranch horse? Or maybe Amish driving? Or work horses log pulling in hard to reach areas?

After all everything else is just a derivative of a long obsolete original function.[/QUOTE]

That sounds true.

I do think there is function in entertainment, but I’m not sure that the Hunter discipline contains any intrinsic element that’s necessary for human survival.

There is however an element of character building for young people that can be provided through participation in equestrian activities. This is probably a positive factor for a society.

What I think we may be able to speculate about, is how the discipline is currently structured when taken as a whole, and ask if it that structure is efficient.

#144

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7202470]

I do think there is function in entertainment, but I’m not sure that the Hunter discipline contains any intrinsic element that’s necessary for human survival.[/QUOTE]

It may not be “natural” like a cave man hunted for his food. Hunting history was a sport like football. But I do think it can be very necessary - First, riding my Hunter brings me peace and happiness in my busy life. Second, if I didn’t have my Hunter horse my trainer, the grooms, the boarding stable owner, the farrier, the feed company, the hay growers, the bridle makers and so on would not be putting food on their tables.

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7202470]
What I think we may be able to speculate about, is how the discipline is currently structured when taken as a whole, and ask if it that structure is efficient.[/QUOTE]

If your are basing your opinion on the horses in the video I linked in my first post at Capital Challenge; then you are way off of even “speculating” the current training is not correct.

The Show Hunters of today are athletic, smart, balanced, jump amazing, calm and happy to do their job. That type of horse isn’t easy to find. As a “sport” the Show Hunters of today are being trained correctly as a whole. Now saying this, in any discipline you will have incorrect training but what is being rewarded in the big rings today is appropriate.

#145

And? So what? Who cares? Is there a mandate somewhere that says the hunters (or any other equestrian sport) must contain intrinsic elements necessary for human survival?

What I think we may be able to speculate about, is how the discipline is currently structured when taken as a whole, and ask if it that structure is efficient.

Efficient for what? And why do “we” need to speculate on it anyway?

I get that you are trying to play judge and jury with the hunter industry and/or all equestrian activities ever in the history of the world, but I have no clue why you’re doing it. Two-thirds of the conversation you’re having is happening all in your head, and the one-third of the conversation you’re putting on here is so poorly written that it makes me nostalgic for the days when I was grading four sections of freshman comp papers in one weekend.

#146

Next time my boyfriend asks why I need to go to another horse show, I’m going to tell him that it’s because “it’s necessary for human survival”. :lol: :lol:

#147

There isn’t a single horse sport or use of horses in The U.S. that contains any intrinsic element that’s necessary for human survival. All uses have been replaced with more effective and efficient.

What I think we may be able to speculate about, is how the discipline is currently structured when taken as a whole, and ask if it that structure is efficient

Are you sure you don’t mean sufficient? We’ve all been at a horse show where the gate was open and certainly felt there was some inefficiency. I’m not sure how you want an entire discipline to be efficient. Do you mean how quickly a young horse becomes a made one?

#148

I do think there is function in entertainment, but I’m not sure that the Hunter discipline contains any intrinsic element that’s necessary for human survival.

By all means, find us an English discipline that does.

#149

Considering that the purpose of this thread is allegedly “what are the hunters REALLY about,” I think we can all agree:

“not anything intrinsic to human survival”

and then move on to what they ARE, versus what they ARE NOT, about.

OR
we can come up with additional lists of stuff that the hunters are not about, which is by definition “everything else except that one thing that the hunters are REALLY about”, namely (to cite but the briefest of samples):

-ensuring the ushering in of the winter equinox in a manner that suitably appeases Gaia
-social inequities as portrayed by the photographs of Jacob Riis
-the decline of the Roman empire
-post modernist thought patterns in intermetropolitan lifestyle cultures and their effects on self conceptualized identities
-quark theory

And for the record, nobody can state with any authority that my identification of “Things The Hunters Are Not About” is 100% beyond the realm of possibility of being true that those things are not what the hunters are about,

so there.

#150

The hunters are a discipline - separate from jumpers, dressage horses, eventers, etc. They require a horse suited to the job with the right carriage, mental state, movement, style, look, etc… just as eventers and dressage horses have to have qualities that make them excel.

And – true to form – there will be riders who disparage the discipline they do not, or cannot, do.

I adore the hunters - nothing so elegant or that presents such an easy looking ride - but it is only fair to respect horsemen from all stripes.

When I first came to Canada, I hate to admit it, but I had to ask someone to explain the difference between hunters and jumpers - the show hunter in UK is a different animal…the riders are different, too.

Call me a George Morris fan…and he can get on a GP dressage horse and
perform well.

#151

[QUOTE=loshad;7201942]
Many years ago, when I used to teach college freshmen, I would tell them (frequently) that a simple word used correctly is worth more than an entire thesaurus of long and complicated ones. I cannot image why that particular piece of advice keeps coming back to me today.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=foursocks;7202375]

Listen, I am a professor- so here is a helpful pro-tip for you. Not only do I have to read a lot of things that hopeful first years write, I’ve been in your position as the aspiring philosopher. Believe me I love to blather. I can write enormous amounts of nothing, using all of the words. However, I don’t do this because, as Losh says, big words and involved sentences aren’t super-impressive, they are just annoying, particularly when the words are used incorrectly.[/QUOTE]

Thank you all. For a minute I was wondering if I had finally destroyed the one brain cell that was holding it all together, because I knew all of these words and yet as a whole they made no sense! Having discovered that AH is just more or less randomly throwing every 4+ syllable word together, I shall pour a glass of wine to celebrate the continuing functionality of my cerebellum :wink:

But first, let me give you a little analogy that occurred to me while I was suffering through all those tortured sentences. AH, you write like a novice rider on a GP jumper trying to get around a 3’6" course, over-bitted, martingaled, pulling on the reins and kicking with your spurs while your whip flails about, more likely to put out your own eye than anything else.

Learn this from the show hunters: in riding as in writing, simplicity is beautiful and making something difficult appear effortless is a great deal harder than making something easy appear difficult.

There’s no reason why hunters are necessary for survival, but there’s the intrinsic element boiled down for you.

#152

[QUOTE=doublesstable;7202514]
It may not be “natural” like a cave man hunted for his food. Hunting history was a sport like football. But I do think it can be very necessary - First, riding my Hunter brings me peace and happiness in my busy life. Second, if I didn’t have my Hunter horse my trainer, the grooms, the boarding stable owner, the farrier, the feed company, the hay growers, the bridle makers and so on would not be putting food on their tables.[/QUOTE]

If history changed and the Hunter discipline hadn’t come into existence, you or someone like you might still enjoy horses for those same reasons, the style of riding might be all that changed.

The Show Hunters of today are athletic, smart, balanced, jump amazing, calm and happy to do their job. That type of horse isn’t easy to find. As a “sport” the Show Hunters of today are being trained correctly as a whole. Now saying this, in any discipline you will have incorrect training but what is being rewarded in the big rings today is appropriate.

I agree that top riders of practically any discipline will likely share a similar understanding of fundamental horsemanship.

I think the interesting questions concern the style of riding, and it’s propensity for changing over time.

#153

I vote that axl wins.

Show of hands?

#154

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7202628]
I think the interesting questions concern the style of riding, and it’s propensity for changing over time.[/QUOTE]

Congrats!
We have now progressed as far as the thread title.

#155

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7202587]
Considering that the purpose of this thread is allegedly “what are the hunters REALLY about,” I think we can all agree:

“not anything intrinsic to human survival”

and then move on to what they ARE, versus what they ARE NOT, about.

OR
we can come up with additional lists of stuff that the hunters are not about, which is by definition “everything else except that one thing that the hunters are REALLY about”, namely (to cite but the briefest of samples):

-ensuring the ushering in of the winter equinox in a manner that suitably appeases Gaia
-social inequities as portrayed by the photographs of Jacob Riis
-the decline of the Roman empire
-post modernist thought patterns in intermetropolitan lifestyle cultures and their effects on self conceptualized identities
-quark theory

And for the record, nobody can state with any authority that my identification of “Things The Hunters Are Not About” is 100% beyond the realm of possibility of being true that those things are not what the hunters are about,

so there.[/QUOTE]

I think the Romans may have hunted wild boar on horse back.

Perhaps the Romans had an influence on hunting during their occupation of Britain, and the fall of the empire effected the evolution of hunting?

#156

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;7202536]
And? So what? Who cares? Is there a mandate somewhere that says the hunters (or any other equestrian sport) must contain intrinsic elements necessary for human survival? [/QUOTE]

I care.

Efficient for what? And why do “we” need to speculate on it anyway?

Only if you care too.

I get that you are trying to play judge and jury with the hunter industry and/or all equestrian activities ever in the history of the world, but I have no clue why you’re doing it.

That was not the message that I intended to convey.

Two-thirds of the conversation you’re having is happening all in your head, and the one-third of the conversation you’re putting on here is so poorly written that it makes me nostalgic for the days when I was grading four sections of freshman comp papers in one weekend.

I think that 100% of anything that anyone says, originates from their heads.

I apologize for my poor writing… I will continue to try to improve my writing, any suggestions would be very appreciated.

Meup explained what a passive voice was to me once, and I’m very grateful to her for helping me understand that, it’s something I try to remember as I write.

#157

Tips for improving writing:

1.) Identify your argument.
First identify it to yourself.
Then state it right up at the top for everyone else to read.

1a.) Identify something you are arguing FOR, not AGAINST.
Even if you disagree with someone else’s idea, do so in a manner that shows why your alternative is better.

So, beginning with this thread.

The question before us is: “What are the hunters REALLY about?”
The one sentence summary answer you would like to propose for consideration is:

Your reasoning is:

Fill in the blanks.

#158

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7202745]
Tips for improving writing:

1.) Identify your argument.
First identify it to yourself.
Then state it right up at the top for everyone else to read.

1a.) Identify something you are arguing FOR, not AGAINST.
Even if you disagree with someone else’s idea, do so in a manner that shows why your alternative is better.

So, beginning with this thread.

The question before us is: “What are the hunters REALLY about?”
The one sentence summary answer you would like to propose for consideration is:

Your reasoning is:

Fill in the blanks.[/QUOTE]

That’s awesome!

Thank you. :slight_smile:

I’ll give it a try later, and see if I can make those tips work.

#159

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7200834]
I have lived in both worlds at various times and can assure you that many eventers take pride in diminishing the abilities of hunter riders. ?[/QUOTE]

BS. I don’t know of any decent eventers that bash hunters. We start a lot of our young horses in the hunter ring…and my trainer…a TOP event trainer has long described the best xc rounds will look like a classic working hunter round. You want smoothness and rhythm. And you want riders who are quiet with their aids.

I can’t remember EVER hearing anyone putting down other disciplines…other than maybe hearing uneducated teens saying dumb stuff…most of which showed they were not good riders in any discipline.

#160

[QUOTE=axl;7202624]
Thank you all. For a minute I was wondering if I had finally destroyed the one brain cell that was holding it all together, because I knew all of these words and yet as a whole they made no sense! Having discovered that AH is just more or less randomly throwing every 4+ syllable word together, I shall pour a glass of wine to celebrate the continuing functionality of my cerebellum :wink:

But first, let me give you a little analogy that occurred to me while I was suffering through all those tortured sentences. AH, you write like a novice rider on a GP jumper trying to get around a 3’6" course, over-bitted, martingaled, pulling on the reins and kicking with your spurs while your whip flails about, more likely to put out your own eye than anything else.

Learn this from the show hunters: in riding as in writing, simplicity is beautiful and making something difficult appear effortless is a great deal harder than making something easy appear difficult.

There’s no reason why hunters are necessary for survival, but there’s the intrinsic element boiled down for you.[/QUOTE]

Awesome post overall, but your cerebellum could be functioning and you could still be in a vegetative state.
It’s your cerebrum that you are using so well. :smiley:
(can’t help myself–I teach A&P)

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