Hunting in England vs. U.S.?

[cnvh]

Disclosure: I have never hunted in my life, but plans are set to go for my first time ever this spring. I can’t even tell you how excited I am-- this has been a dream of mine since I was a little girl. I’ve been reading up on everything I can get my hands on (including this forum), got the book “Riding to Hounds in America,” etc., etc., so I hopefully don’t embarrass myself.

I have no ethical dilemmas with the “hunting” part of fox hunting… I grew up on a working beef farm, hubby and I raise our own meat rabbits, so I’m OK with the possibility of a kill. However, from what I’ve read, the primary goal of American hunts (as opposed to British ones) isn’t generally to kill the fox, and a kill is the exception, not the rule.

So here’s my dilemma… one of my dearest friends is English, and she has major issues with the whole fox hunting thing, fully supports the ban in the U.K., etc. She actually hunted a few times when she was younger (and “didn’t realize what was really going on,” as she puts it), but she’s rather upset about my excitement to try fox hunting.

We’ve known each other for years, she knows my background re: growing up on a farm, is fine with the fact that we raise our own meat, etc., etc., but she’s REALLY upset about this fox hunting thing… not to the point where it’s going to destroy our friendship or anything, but whenever the topic comes up, her comments are along the lines of, “I’m so disappointed that you would want to do something so barbaric, you have no idea how cruel it is to the foxes, to be ripped apart by the hounds or beat to death by the huntsmen,” stuff like that. She’s fine with raising animals to slaughter because, in her mind, they have a humane death, whereas the poor fox is tortured for sport.

I’ve tried explaining to her that, from what I understand, it’s different here than it is (or was) in England, but having never hunted myself, I don’t have any real-world examples to cite.

Any thoughts? Insights? Talking points to assure her that I’m not some crazed monster for wanting to do this?

Please don’t suggest I discontinue our friendship-- she is one of my closest friends and will continue to be so; she’s really a wonderful person, not the “PETA” type generally, except where fox hunting is concerned. I know I’m not going to change her mind, but I’m pretty sure fox hunting in America isn’t exactly what she thinks it is.

[Equibrit]

Your friend has very little or no experience of foxhunting in England and appears to have ingested the anti rhetoric, hook line and sinker. I would suggest that if she is your good friend, she would allow you to make your own decision on the matter without pressuring you. The vehemence of those against hunting in England is all wrapped up in social attitudes that do not exist here. She should do you the favour that you are extending to her, in not insisting that she change HER attitude. You do not need to justify yourself to somebody with an opinion that happens to differ from yours.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

The hunt that my boarders hunted with went out at least twice a week for 9 years without a “kill”. I think that is not too unusual for US hunts.

Truly, if a fox gets caught here, it was a very sick/starving fox, and the end thankfully comes quicker than if left to die a slow painful death, or be eaten by other predators. A healthy fox in his territory knows EXACTLY where he can go to ground, but they also know they are MUCH faster than the hounds.

You can thnk of them as kind of like my barn cats, when my dog goes zipping down the aisle. They sit quietly until she is VERY close, and they calmly hop up onto the wall, out of her reach (not that she would hurt one, but she is annoying).

[vineyridge]

Another huge difference between the US and the UK is the presence of coyote chasing here. I don’t know where you are located, but anywhere but the Eastern Seaboard (excluding GA and FL) foxhunting usually means coyote chasing. Coyotes are wicked fast and can leave the hounds in the dust when they turn on the afterburners. A coyote has to be really, really sick to get caught.

Some of the hunts in the South also run bobcats and wild hogs, and out west some run mountain lions. Nobody WANTS to catch those critters, as the hunts are rather fond of their hounds.

Foxes, both red and gray, are really rather scarce in North America; in the UK they are plentiful and considered vermin by farmers. That is one reason why North Americans don’t have the Kill as the primary object for people of hunting. Hounds, being hounds, ALWAYS hunt to kill; but their people don’t necessarily. In the UK, the hunts were providing vermin control for farmers. Foxes had about the same status in the UK Countryside as rats do here.

[fernie_fox]

Hunting in UK has grown so much the last couple of years,I dont think I have ever seen so many kids and teens out.

They are now officially “trail hunting”.

The drag packs are still going well too.

Here in the US,there are many drag packs that you can hunt with.

There are also many live hunting packs, they are different.

But if you have a problem ,try and find a drag pack to go with.

Does your friend still think ALL hunting is bad,ie Live or drag?

Does she know the difference?

[danceronice]

Are there places in the US that live-hunt with the intent of killing the fox or coyote if the hounds can catch it? Most places I’ve seen so far seem to emphasize how they’re drag hunts or don’t kill anything, which seems a little unsporting and beside the point to me.

(And to the OP, tell your friend that unless we’re talking fishing with dynamite, anyone who thinks any sort of hunting is unfair to animals hasn’t done it. I’ve had deer MOCK ME. And also that animals kill each other in inhumane all the time–there are a few species, even, especially in the weasel family, that appear to kill just for kicks, or at least for no reason humans can determine.)

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=cnvh;4638385]
Disclosure: I have never hunted in my life, but plans are set to go for my first time ever this spring. I can’t even tell you how excited I am-- this has been a dream of mine since I was a little girl. I’ve been reading up on everything I can get my hands on (including this forum), got the book “Riding to Hounds in America,” etc., etc., so I hopefully don’t embarrass myself.

I have no ethical dilemmas with the “hunting” part of fox hunting… I grew up on a working beef farm, hubby and I raise our own meat rabbits, so I’m OK with the possibility of a kill. However, from what I’ve read, the primary goal of American hunts (as opposed to British ones) isn’t generally to kill the fox, and a kill is the exception, not the rule.

So here’s my dilemma… one of my dearest friends is English, and she has major issues with the whole fox hunting thing, fully supports the ban in the U.K., etc. She actually hunted a few times when she was younger (and “didn’t realize what was really going on,” as she puts it), but she’s rather upset about my excitement to try fox hunting.

We’ve known each other for years, she knows my background re: growing up on a farm, is fine with the fact that we raise our own meat, etc., etc., but she’s REALLY upset about this fox hunting thing… not to the point where it’s going to destroy our friendship or anything, but whenever the topic comes up, her comments are along the lines of, “I’m so disappointed that you would want to do something so barbaric, you have no idea how cruel it is to the foxes, to be ripped apart by the hounds or beat to death by the huntsmen,” stuff like that. She’s fine with raising animals to slaughter because, in her mind, they have a humane death, whereas the poor fox is tortured for sport.

I’ve tried explaining to her that, from what I understand, it’s different here than it is (or was) in England, but having never hunted myself, I don’t have any real-world examples to cite.

Any thoughts? Insights? Talking points to assure her that I’m not some crazed monster for wanting to do this?

Please don’t suggest I discontinue our friendship-- she is one of my closest friends and will continue to be so; she’s really a wonderful person, not the “PETA” type generally, except where fox hunting is concerned. I know I’m not going to change her mind, but I’m pretty sure fox hunting in America isn’t exactly what she thinks it is.[/QUOTE]

Has your “friend” insisted that you change your religion?

Your political beliefs?

Your boy friend?

There are some things that one does not but into.

Not with friends.

CSSJR

[AnotherRound]

You can say, tell you what, I won’t question why you want to date what’s his name, and you won’t question why I want to hunt, deal?

I think she has no clue what she’s ‘against’ and once you are clear about hunting, as well, you will have a better idea of where the inappropriateness of her comments really lie. For what its worth, I have fox-hunted, as a teen, and currently hunt on foot (with guns and once with a bow) but don’t know enough about this to offer advice, except the for social aspect as above. I wouldn’t be happy with someone who kept bringing up some way they think I should think about an issue.

[Jaegermonster]

@danceronice;4639024

Are there places in the US that live-hunt with the intent of killing the fox or coyote if the hounds can catch it? Most places I’ve seen so far seem to emphasize how they’re drag hunts or don’t kill anything, which seems a little unsporting and beside the point to me.

Yes. A drag hunt is a drag hunt is a drag hunt. There is no hunted critter.

And a live hunt is just that. A live hunt.

If the quarry is caught it is killed. The whole point of hunting is not killing things, it’s watching the hounds work. But sometimes s&*^ happens and the quarry gets caught
In some areas a landowner may have a hunt come in to help him with a varmit problem with his crops or livestock, then yes the hunt is there to help him kill it.
It’s just that these days you can’t make a big deal about it “in public” because people are so warm and fuzzy now and think all animals are going around dancing and singing together like some Disney movie. Most hunts in America are very careful about their “public” face after what happened in England.

and ditto what the other foxhunters posted.

and if the MFHA ever got wind of a huntsman beating to death the hunted animal as the op stated her friend told her, the wrath of God would come down on that hunt.

[cnvh]

Well, for what it’s worth, it’s not something my friend ever brings up; she never goes out of her way to harass me about it… the only time the topic comes up between us is if I mention it. (Most recently-- I posted a status update on Facebook about going out this week and trotting hills to get ready for hunting. She posted a reply comment re: how barbaric she thinks it is.)

Certainly she’s entitled to her opinion, as am I; she doesn’t think I’m a horrible person, she just hates the sport. (Very important point, that… we’re both grown-up enough to separate our opinions from our friendship. I don’t begrudge her the right to say she disagrees with me, and she doesn’t expect anything different in return.)

But I just don’t think she and I are comparing apples to apples, if that makes any sense.

For what I know of hunting “on this side of the pond,” the focus is more on the chase than the kill… I thought that, generally, when the fox goes to ground, that’s it, fox wins, and the hounds are called off. (Of course, if the hounds catch the fox, hounds will do what hounds will do-- I understand that.) The way my friend describes it, on English hunts, terriers are brought along in addition to the hounds, and when the fox goes to ground, the terriers are brought in to extract the fox, and one way or another, the hounds/terriers WILL kill their prey. (I don’t think I’ve heard mention anything about terriers in modern American hunting??)

I don’t know anything about hunting prey other than foxes… I know if you asked my folks, the only good coyote is a dead coyote, with all the problems coyotes cause at their farm… but that’s a separate topic.

Anyway, thanks to all who have replied so far… I learn new stuff every time I come to this forum, and hopefully within the next month or two, I can say that I survived my first hunt and I’ll finally have some first-hand experience to talk about.

[Equibrit]

@cnvh;4639558

I know if you asked my folks, the only good coyote is a dead coyote, with all the problems coyotes cause at their farm… but that’s a separate topic.

Sub the word fox for coyote and you have the situation in the UK. Other than the fact that Charlie is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUUUUUUUUUUUDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYY!

[cnvh]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;4640478]
Sub the word fox for coyote and you have the situation in the UK. Other than the fact that Charlie is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUUUUUUUUUUUDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYY![/QUOTE]

I assume you mean my horse Charlie? Thanks.

[Xanthoria]

I have drag hunted in the UK (in Wales, not England) and the western USA.

Your friend can be reassured in knowing that in the (western) USA hunts go out to just mildly inconvenience coyotes at a sedate pace.

In the UK they go out to kill as many foxes as possible as a service to farmers. They will allow a sporting field or two head start to the fox, but the aim is to kill. And I cannot imagine it is a nice death to run for your life, get to the safety of your den if you’re lucky, and then be dragged out and killed by terriers. I am sure some will disagree and say this is a great way to go but I don’t buy it.

In the USA it also seems cubbing (killing baby foxes) is frowned on.

My experience with drag hunts in the USA is that they are slower and shorter than in the UK. They allow riders to just walk or trot with no jumping required (hilltoppers) or do a few jumps if they like. I have not experienced the long gallops and huge mandatory drystone wall jumps of my childhood here! I rode a 12.2h pony on a hunt once and it was jump or… be left behind!

[Unfforgettable]

Xan, you must not have hunted with Lynn Lloyd and the Red Rock pack if you think hunting coyotes in the west is sedate. LOL. What a blast!

[Xanthoria]

You’re right - I have not! I’ve only drag hunted here in CA

[Unfforgettable]

I rode once years ago with Los Altos…definitely on the sedate side. If you have the chance, go hunt with Red Rock. You will have a great day…Lynn provides good sport and usually some wild rides. Get thee to Nevada!

[Xanthoria]

Sounds like a plan!!! :mrgreen:

[Wheel_Whip]

Gonna miss that friend…

Coyote hunting sedate!!! Bwaaahaaahaaahaa!!!Friend doesn’t like hunting? Too damn bad. You’ll make more than enough friends when you join a good hunt. PS “Charlie” is supersecret foxhunter code for the fox. Oops, I’ll have to go to ground now…

[Beverley]

To the OP: The last 10 years I lived in Virginia, hunting on average 2x weekly, my next door neighbor was a card carrying PETA member and we were, and remained, cordial despite my ardent hunting. Why? Because I didn’t sugarcoat anything and didn’t lie. Yes, foxes, and coyotes, and other quarry hunted in the US occasionally get killed. It’s a quick death when it occurs, and there is nothing the least bit cruel or inhumane about it. She would, on seeing my return, ask how ‘the fox’ did, I would smilingly say ‘he won,’ and we’d go on with life. It is true that in this country we do not have a need to kill foxes, by and large, unlike the UK where their populations are epidemic and farmers insist- if the hounds don’t kill them, they will. In my experience in this country- if a landowner has a problem fox, we’ll often work with wildlife officials to trap and relocate same (at the right time of year, so they have time to learn the country and establish their own little territory before ever being pursued by hounds), thus saving certain death by offended farmer. HOWEVER- hounds don’t read PETA literature so you’ll never convince them it isn’t about catching and killing quarry. They will do their darndest, but since the fox knows the scenting conditions as well as the hounds on any given day, and has plenty of safe havens (own den, groundhog holes, trees for grays), it is rare indeed that one gets caught, and as has been noted, often found to be ‘doing poorly,’ mange or distemper or other health issue.

You might ask your friend to ponder why, when the average life expectancy of a red fox in the U.S. is 2.5 years, many packs can tell you of individual foxes that they hunted 2 or 3 times a year for 4, 5, even 6 seasons. Why? Well, mainly, because foxhunters (and all other hunters for that matter) preserve habitat, working with landowners and anyone else who’s interested. Viable habitat includes not just shelter, but the right conditions for the fox’s natural prey to not only survive, but thrive. Your friend might also consider that because foxes themselves hunt by scent, being pursued by a pack of scent hounds isn’t great cause for alarm- they are masters at driving the hounds nuts and losing them or going to ground when they don’t want to play any more. Many antis attempt to cite trumped up studies about how hunting stresses foxes and they die later from that stress- well, again, see above, foxes in hunt country live longer than foxes that aren’t in hunt country. Must not bother them much. Then of course you have the related question- if it DID stress them unduly, why on earth would they stay where they are hunted when there are so many other areas where they AREN’T hunted? Where I kept my horses in Virginia- ‘my’ fox would pass through regularly, great fun to watch him mousing, and he would do so within 15 yards of the chain link fence next door, which contained a dozen or so labrador retrievers, hurling themselves at the fence and barking in unison.

As for coyotes- out here in the west, never mind the hounds, coyotes fear humans with high powered rifles that can and will nail them at more than a mile away. I have hunted a number of places where hounds were used for the first time- and those coyotes would perceive humans headed their way and take off. Once they were hunted by hounds a few times, being as clever as foxes if not more so, they figured out they weren’t going to die, and instead of running straight away, such coyotes over time run in loops much like foxes- when they get tired of the game they just turn on the afternburners and distance themselves. Lynn Lloyd at Red Rock will tell you that indeed the coyotes she hunts regularly, particularly around her kennels, do run in loops. When she hunts where they’ve never been before, you see the sayonara, I’m gone straight outta here kind of coyote. Or- I’ve been with her pack when, after a couple of hours of drawing blank, you look back behind the hilltopper group, and there’s a curious coyote, following along watching the show.

Best thing for your friend, in my opinion, is to go hunting again- car follow with someone who can keep her close to the action- if you ever see the hunted fox or coyote, and their reaction to being hunted by hounds, it is really quite clear to any reasonable person that these animals are not alarmed in the least. I’m sure anyone on this list can tell you of a fox who has the hounds ‘beat’ by a long ways and simply sits and watches and waits for them to catch up before resuming his frolic. Such is not the action of a panicked or stressed animal.

[wateryglen]

Brilliant!

Brilliant Bev! Brialliant!
And the car following thing is a terrific idea to get the whole picture. Seeing the whole show gets it all in perspective.

I bow low in deep admiration for your wisdom; so glad you’re here! :yes: