Hypothetical - how would you price this horse?

[MadTrotter]

@4wdNstraight

I do think some scores would need justify the cost,

This is just what I and almost everyone else have been saying. Without scores, you’re probably just not going to get any nibbles on your ad, and any seller agent is going to take the horse around to get some scores. Very few strangers are just going to take the owner’s word for all of the questions here.

Anyone shopping in this price point is going to either think unshown horse at this level and this age either has some serious soundness issues or cannot show for some behavioral reason.

Also, this is the level and age where horses “top out” skill wise, so if you’re just someone looking at an ad, you’re going to wonder of this horse can do GP.

So you could maybe get higher 5s over time selling word of mouth but again without scores, the pool of buyers is small, and seller agents don’t like stock sitting for months.

For all of the training that’s gone into this horse and the amount of validation the owner seems to need regarding the value of said horse, I really just don’t see why they don’t pay a trainer to truck the horse to some shows?

[J-Lu]

Yea, I can’t answer to if the the owner wanted to sell and didn’t show. That’s not my call. I’m sure the pool of buyers would shrink substantially.

I’d suspect if she were to sell, she’d provide video showing that the horse can work at the level of training advertised at. I’m pretty sure buyers at that level would be able to make a knowledgeable decision of whether or not the horse is working at that level (btw, she is) based on the video. They could contact the trainer for more info, risk coming out for a test-ride with their trainer.

I disagree that horses “top out” at 11-12. I’ve seen many horses progress years past this. Very many horses aren’t GP at 11-12 because they’re carefully managed. But they are later in life. Very many of these horses doing GP at 11 are lame by 13. This horse, and so many others, aren’t going to the Olympics and are well managed. They keep building muscle and tendons through their teens to do the harder work. That’s basic physiology.

[rothmpp]

When I went to sell my super ammy friendly PSG mutt (tb x dwb) 6ish years ago - I couldn’t give him away for $40k. I think ammies who love their horses can’t see the forest for the trees sometimes.

Mine had some necessary maintenance. But what you got was a mid teens 16.3 pretty easy keeper gelding that you could get on, put him somewhat together, and have your never ridden a flying change student go across the diagonal, switch her legs and get a clean change. I watched it happen.

The thing is, at this price point, most people are going to want to show. And until the trainer AND AA can demonstrate that the horse has the brain to be the same super ammy friendly horse in the show ring, away from home - it’s going to affect the final price. Videos can be very cleverly edited to camouflage issues. I’ve seen plenty of horses that need hundreds of hours at shows to be super solid AA citizens eventually. Without the specter of the drug testers, what keeps a horse super mellow and reasonable at home can be something that the horse would not be able to continue to stay on.

I’m by no means saying this is the case for OP’s friend, but most of us would read through the lines and add our own adjectives to any outlier ad. And for better or worse - horse from the OP is an outlier. Ready for PSG/I1 but never been shown? That is unusual. To me this sounds like a horse that if the owner wanted to sell - would need to have the trainer work all of their contacts, their contact’s contacts, etc…for a hope of getting anything more than a low mid 5s price.

[J-Lu]

Great post. Thanks!

Honestly, the owner and the trainer just don’t show now-I don’t think the owner cares. Trainer showed in FL when she lived there and got medals. Moving up here a few years , she has no horse to show. She bred her 2 horses and has 2 under 2 now and just purchased a nice youngster from ISF, so it will be interesting to see if she puts a show record on that horse. She just started the horse. I suspect she purchased this horse to make a name for herself here, and she can really only do that by showing. I don’t think she cares to show if her clients don’t care to show. So far, her clients don’t care to show.

I very much agree with your last paragraph. Some work in some way, shape or form would have to go into the sale to get 6 figures.

Thanks!

[MadTrotter]

Not all horses, and it’s not just physiological. For a lot of horses, how far they get is mental. It takes a rare horse that tolerates the compression of high level movements.

For example, I posted in another thread about a trakhener I bought ago be my adult big-girl let’s do serious eventing prospect who is now a mid level dressage pal for my family member. He will never show in any discipline for several reasons, even though he is fancy enough, sound as a pound, and exceptionally trainable.

For dressage, he will not accept a double bridle, and while we may get to a place where snaffles (and this one even prefers a hackamore but will tolerate a big fat soft snaffle) are technically acceptable, I don’t see the GP world warming up to it in his lifetime.

Secondly, he is a sensitive bundle of nerves and really only a pro ride at shows. I “top out” nerve-wise with him at doing a couple hunter paces just to get him off property once in a while. I don’t enjoy the stress, I have young kids, I won’t put my life in danger.

So that’s my anecdata. I have a lot of friends who are more accomplished competitors than I, for sure, and I watch how they bring along young horses as their livelihood. It’s expensive. If a horse doesn’t show GP potential by 8 or so, especially an expensive import, the math starts not making sense. And those are the ones that are sound!

There just aren’t a lot of well-heeled people out there who will spend a decade slowly developing a horse for funsies, that’s why it’s so hard to square the expense of years training a horse like your friend’s with the realities of the market.

[BigMama1]

@MadTrotter

For dressage, he will not accept a double bridle, and while we may get to a place where snaffles (and this one even prefers a hackamore but will tolerate a big fat soft snaffle) are technically acceptable, I don’t see the GP world warming up to it in his lifetime.

Where do you live? Here at national shows there are no issues with competing in a snaffle right up to GP. You just can’t do it at a CDI

[cnm161]

Can confirm. Have shown in a snaffle at FEI levels, including GP in national shows, because my horse at the time could porpoise through the warmup and would fold his neck like an accordion if he felt the curb engage.

Worked out of it, eventually, but some things you just can’t school at home.

[MadTrotter]

Argh phone ate my edit. I haven’t shown UL dressage in over a decade! I am glad the culture is changing re: double bridles. I was told not accepting a DB would be considered a behavioral defect when factored in with my trak’s nervous personality, thus not worth the $$ to try to develop into a GP horse.

The original point was, horses “top out” at certain level for mental reasons, not just soundness.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I think the reason you’re seeing such diverse responses is because if this horse was being actively put on the market for a significant chunk of change, he’d have to be campaigned and get show miles.

As well as the “good brain” and being able to withstand the mental and physical rigors of competition, if someone was spending that much money on a horse, they’d want to see if he had the presence and ability to actually get decent scores from judges, consistently. People would want to see it proven from those outside of the bubble of biased reassurance of the trainer and owner.

The fact the trainer no longer shows and doesn’t have connections in the show world would likewise be a factor. Knowing and being trusted by people and trainers willing to spend that much on a horse IMHO can’t be underrated.

Tangent, but I know someone who has been breeding horses–she has been buying “good” semen from stallions and has mares with decent bloodlines, but truthfully, she’s been unable to sell most of them except to give away to family members because she doesn’t really show or have connections to people who would be willing to pay the prices she’s asking for them.

[J-Lu]

Thanks!

Gee, point your friend in my direction!