TB stallion Just A Devil sired Lucky Devil, that Lauren Kieffer competed at Advanced. Lucky Devil is out of a Nevada daughter.
In Holland these people are trying to get upper level eventing horse breeding off the ground: http://dutcheventingstables.nl/ At the moment the only TB stallions they are using are Albaran xx and a clone of Gem Twist xx: http://dutcheventingstables.nl/hengsten/. But of course nowadays there are hardly any breeding TB stallions in Holland. And there are hardly any TB brood mares as well. Let alone breeding stock with a high blood percentage that are proven performers in eventing.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8866218]
The reason that the practice of putting a TB sire on top is probably because most of Europe simply doesn’t have the QUANTITY of TB mares that are available in bigger racing countries. They already have WB mares, so to get blood, they pretty much have to put the TB on top. The Irish and UK folks don’t seem to discriminate as much as the Germans, Dutch and Belgians, who do not have TB mares available. It certainly never hurt the Selle Francais in the past to breed to blood mares, whether TB or AA, although the modern practice is different.
Also with the much larger number of foals from sires, it’s much easier to determine what you are likely to get from breeding. It takes ten or eleven years to get ten or fewer foals from a mare, but a sire get far more than that in just one year.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think that is the main reason because even in Germany (with a TB drop per anno of about 300) there are always TB mares for sale. And mares from abroad are also available (France, Ireland, GB).
Most breeders are afraid of the unknown. And a TB mare is nearly an ET for those breeders. They know nothing about the family, nor of the achievements of this family. They don’t know anything of the conformation of the diret ancestors.
So they have no idea of what to expect when breeding a TB to a WB or a WB to a TB.
another problem is the reputation of TB which is disasterous. This reputation comes from riders who have no experience at all with the handling and riding of blood horses. And their first bad experience conditions all the others.
Even among pro rides, the good ones with blood horses are very rare.
And if you combine these factors, you have the main reason for the loss of blood in European WBs.
Because behind this is the question : to whom sell a TB cross male foal or a gelding ?
Watch out what you say because someone once said the following to me (and I had never ever used the word hate) :P:
It’s really kind of obnoxious how everything you say you need to go on and on and on about how everyone but you hates Thoroughbreds. Frankly, you seem to be the one spreading the most TB hate, and I don’t think that’s your intention. Lauries Crusader is just proof that the right TB will be very popular. Licoto xx is another younger blood stallion who is reasonably popular, and his halfblood son Licotus is a very well liked stallion, featured in the 2016 “stallions who shape the world” calendar. The Germans don’t hate blood. They just want the right blood. Stop telling everyone that all warmblood breeders hate Thoughbreds. Just let that whole freaking thing go already. Enjoy your stallion, show and promote him to his best, stop comparing him to warmbloods and letting it eat at you that there will be people who don’t breed to him because they aren’t looking for a blood horse, and stop pissing all over Thoroughbreds by incessantly talking about how everyone hates them so much.
And that was after these two topics:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?437020-TB-kills-the-jump/page57
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?461788-New-decision-in-Holstein
To be honest, I’m not having any trouble with selling from the TB dams. And the 1* winner was one of the highest prices at the 2014 Monart sale. The only thing in the pedigree was Abba for jumping. Nobody was put off by the TB dam. They loved his type and ability. And also that he was and still is a snaffle mouth with excellent rideability.
Terri
[QUOTE=OBdB;8867549]
I don’t think that is the main reason because even in Germany (with a TB drop per anno of about 300) there are always TB mares for sale. And mares from abroad are also available (France, Ireland, GB).
Most breeders are afraid of the unknown. And a TB mare is nearly an ET for those breeders. They know nothing about the family, nor of the achievements of this family. They don’t know anything of the conformation of the diret ancestors.
So they have no idea of what to expect when breeding a TB to a WB or a WB to a TB.
another problem is the reputation of TB which is disasterous. This reputation comes from riders who have no experience at all with the handling and riding of blood horses. And their first bad experience conditions all the others.
Even among pro rides, the good ones with blood horses are very rare.
And if you combine these factors, you have the main reason for the loss of blood in European WBs.
Because behind this is the question : to whom sell a TB cross male foal or a gelding ?[/QUOTE]
I think the main reason is that a female family is very powerful, and breeders know that. There is science now to back up what people have been saying for generations - that the female family is incredibly important. To me it makes sense from a qualitative and quantitative standpoint to start with a proven and known mare family and ‘outcross’ with the unknowns as statistically you would be more likely to get a better product that way.
In most parts of the world, the female family would come from WBs because they from a sport perspective have the best production record.
Some stallions are stampers, which certainly helps, but a mare with a powerful female family is much more than that.
It is just my experience, which isn’t to say it’s the same for everyone else, but I have seen better results with a TB topside and a WB dam.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8867743]
I think the main reason is that a female family is very powerful, and breeders know that. There is science now to back up what people have been saying for generations - that the female family is incredibly important. To me it makes sense from a qualitative and quantitative standpoint to start with a proven and known mare family and ‘outcross’ with the unknowns as statistically you would be more likely to get a better product that way.
In most parts of the world, the female family would come from WBs because they from a sport perspective have the best production record.
Some stallions are stampers, which certainly helps, but a mare with a powerful female family is much more than that.
It is just my experience, which isn’t to say it’s the same for everyone else, but I have seen better results with a TB topside and a WB dam.[/QUOTE]
I know the sayings about the quality of the female family … BUT there are examples for and against this.
Taking examples from the TB history, there always were … are good families which diminsh in quality and poor families which gain. With no appearant reasons.
I think the same is true in WB families.
What most people don’t see is that genetic history is counted in 10s of years … meaning that a family starts to rise and arise to the top and then will decline … over a period of 50 / 60 or more years. But we, humans, don’t think normaly in these periods, especially nowadays. Therefor we don’t recognise the signs of rise ou decline.
Personnally, I believe that most of the succes of a family is that the original breeder of the family knew his mares, knew the offsprings and knew, inherently, what needed to be done to maintain the quality : which stallions could do the job with his mares and which couldn’t …
unfortunately the modern horse breeding is volatile in itself and the breeders are mostly amateurs without intimate knowledge of their mares AND their history, be it breeding history, collateral history or the performances of the ancestors.
They do not have the time or / and the knowledge to appreciate the necessaire conformation / character / temperament / aptitude to improve what they have …
so they turn to the internet and the stallion holders catalogues to choose from or to seek advise …
[QUOTE=Equilibrium;8867589]
To be honest, I’m not having any trouble with selling from the TB dams. And the 1* winner was one of the highest prices at the 2014 Monart sale. The only thing in the pedigree was Abba for jumping. Nobody was put off by the TB dam. They loved his type and ability. And also that he was and still is a snaffle mouth with excellent rideability.
Terri[/QUOTE]
that’s because you live in a country which has a long tradition of using TBs in all situations (sports) which is not the case of Germany and the other continental countries … even if France is slightly better in this regard then the other countries.
look what happened here with the SF … It is (was ?) one of the better breeds for jumping with a closed SB.
Since the privatisation, all the breeders run after the German and Dutch imports and the original SF represents only 10% of the population now.
They could have done almost as well, but over a longer period, by using a selcted crop of imports and their own TBs / AAs … But no, they thought it could be done in a view years instead of a 2 decades.
[QUOTE=Elles;8867572]
Watch out what you say because someone once said the following to me (and I had never ever used the word hate) :P:
It’s really kind of obnoxious how everything you say you need to go on and on and on about how everyone but you hates Thoroughbreds. Frankly, you seem to be the one spreading the most TB hate, and I don’t think that’s your intention. Lauries Crusader is just proof that the right TB will be very popular. Licoto xx is another younger blood stallion who is reasonably popular, and his halfblood son Licotus is a very well liked stallion, featured in the 2016 “stallions who shape the world” calendar. The Germans don’t hate blood. They just want the right blood. Stop telling everyone that all warmblood breeders hate Thoughbreds. Just let that whole freaking thing go already. Enjoy your stallion, show and promote him to his best, stop comparing him to warmbloods and letting it eat at you that there will be people who don’t breed to him because they aren’t looking for a blood horse, and stop pissing all over Thoroughbreds by incessantly talking about how everyone hates them so much.
And that was after these two topics:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?437020-TB-kills-the-jump/page57
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?461788-New-decision-in-Holstein[/QUOTE]
I can’t care less of what others think of me or my breeding plan.
The point is, that even if we found, today, a TB like Ladykiller or Marlon, Night and Day, Lucky Boy, or any of the other founding fathers … They would stand a chance because the number of their offsprings would not have the critical mass necessary for succes.
In all of Germany, how many mares were bred to a TB in 2015 / 14 / 13 … ? Here in France it’s even scarier.
One of the main reasons for this is … they (‘normal’ breeders) call ‘halfbred’ (Halbblut / demi-sang) a horse which has a calculated TB % of 50 … in the first 8 generations …
Why do most of the stallion holders tell the potentiel breeders that for stallion x the best mare would be one close to the blood ?
unfortunately these stallions outnumber, today, those who needs heavy or even normal mares.
I always consider the action of a breeder more than the words of the detractors. So the breaking point is : when did you (not you Elles, but the common breeder) last use a TB (or even an AA) for breeding ?
[QUOTE=EventerAJ;8855961]
Stormy Atlantic. Usually very attractive. Sometimes “SCA” (Storm Cat Ass… my short-hand for an overpowering hind end) but he’s my favorite Storm Cat son. Good movers, perhaps more huntery than dressage.[/QUOTE]
I have a Stormy Atlantic with SCA! I call it The Badonkadonk!.. Although he is still “only” five and I’m hoping it will even out a tad. :lol:
[QUOTE=OBdB;8868598]
that’s because you live in a country which has a long tradition of using TBs in all situations (sports) which is not the case of Germany and the other continental countries … even if France is slightly better in this regard then the other countries.
look what happened here with the SF … It is (was ?) one of the better breeds for jumping with a closed SB.
Since the privatisation, all the breeders run after the German and Dutch imports and the original SF represents only 10% of the population now.
They could have done almost as well, but over a longer period, by using a selcted crop of imports and their own TBs / AAs … But no, they thought it could be done in a view years instead of a 2 decades.[/QUOTE]
I think it is save to say that supporting the TB in continental Europe is not for the faint hearted…
[QUOTE=OBdB;8868614]
I can’t care less of what others think of me or my breeding plan.
The point is, that even if we found, today, a TB like Ladykiller or Marlon, Night and Day, Lucky Boy, or any of the other founding fathers … They would stand a chance because the number of their offsprings would not have the critical mass necessary for succes.
In all of Germany, how many mares were bred to a TB in 2015 / 14 / 13 … ? Here in France it’s even scarier.
One of the main reasons for this is … they (‘normal’ breeders) call ‘halfbred’ (Halbblut / demi-sang) a horse which has a calculated TB % of 50 … in the first 8 generations …
Why do most of the stallion holders tell the potentiel breeders that for stallion x the best mare would be one close to the blood ?
unfortunately these stallions outnumber, today, those who needs heavy or even normal mares.
I always consider the action of a breeder more than the words of the detractors. So the breaking point is : when did you (not you Elles, but the common breeder) last use a TB (or even an AA) for breeding ?[/QUOTE]
Well, I must say that I felt very much insulted, offended and hurt by that response.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?481613-Elles-s-TB-is-now-AES-approved/page9
Getting back on topic.
This one looks nice: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10857707&blood=10"a=
http://stud-farms.com/thoroughbred-stallions/joe-bear.jpg
http://www.nhstallions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/kapgarde-NH2.pdf
http://www.nhstallions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/carlotamix-NH.pdf
http://www.nhstallions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/shantaram-NH.pdf
It is interesting to see breeders make a female family … The original breeder of a young stallion diablo by chin chin has a tb mare as part of his foundation stock …He…I think he is in Belgium… in particular liked a top french stallion that needed and liked blood. And he aggressively bred to the best jumping stallions that needed blood for mares from that line…and did that for two/three generation. He made it work.
I’m always on the look-out for interesting, in model and / or paper, TB stallions …
Over the years I saw some fine specimens :
Hello Sunday : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=hello+sunday&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=
Baroud d’Honneur : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=baroud+d’honneur&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=
Special Kaldoun : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10560235
Monitor Closely : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10557063
http://www.france-sire.com/etalon-42782-monitor_closely.php
Noble Sang : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=noble+sang&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=
Indomito : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10816097
http://www.france-sire.com/etalon-63115-indomito.php
Pont des Arts : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=pont+des+arts&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=
Ange Gabriel : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=ange+gabriel&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=
Day Flight : http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10565964
Over the years (and before I bred to Simplex) I contacted two studs with the intention to use their stallions … Unfortunately, the first one (Baroud d’Honneur) was infertine (probabely because of his age : 20) and the second had to be put down (Noble Sang).
Barocci(JPN), by Deep Impact, standing in Sweden.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs62wL9WgAAwJzP.jpg
Fed Biz
http://i60.tinypic.com/16qqyo.jpg
Winslow Homer
http://journeymanstallions.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/winslow-homer-NEW_712w.jpg
This is the best candyshop I have seen in years :-)!
I posted him at #45.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;8880777]
No love for Robin Des Champs?
How about fellow Rathbarry inmate, Shirocco?[/QUOTE]
