a brief overview (above scientist written ties in various aspects not just animal treatment)
https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-animals-and-factory-farms
Even if “farm” makes you think of a childs story book farm, a commercial agriculture farm is still a type of farm.
And not all are horrid, maybe not lavish or lush, but not horrid.
[QUOTE=ThatGirlTina;8234683]
Even if “farm” makes you think of a childs story book farm, a commercial agriculture farm is still a type of farm.
And not all are horrid, maybe not lavish or lush, but not horrid.[/QUOTE]
Of course it does.
The urban narrative, the Queen building herself a play farm in the park of Versailles…
Something that was never idyllic, but back breaking labor.
Factory as contrast…
Congratulations, you and Countrywood have decyphered the power of words and the imagery they invoke.
Do I detect snarkiness?
I was seeking PC terms to use to describe something specific. No imagery seeking or applying. In fact, I stated that regardless of possible implied imagery, it is what it is. I merely wanted a name to put to it.
while Country is on a different tangent than I, one about abuse at such places and what the word “farm” in general makes one think of.
no “congratulations” necessary.
The term “factory farm” implies a number of things beyond just scale. Monocropping is one; the heavy use of genetically modified crop varieties and chemical pesticides is another.
There are plenty of reasons to reject factory farming on the basis of sustainability alone. The inhumane treatment of animals (and there’s nothing fuzzy or romanticized about this particular objection, IMO, it’s quite real) is just one item in a very long list.
No matter the words, imagery, or our arguments on the board, animals are living in close confinement and stressed , inhumane conditions in mostly large scale (fill in the blank for the name )
What matters to the animals is how they are treated, not our petty arguments about what name to use. Add in the environmental factors as another aspect
[QUOTE=ThatGirlTina;8234717]
Do I detect snarkiness?
I was seeking PC terms to use to describe something specific. No imagery seeking or applying. In fact, I stated that regardless of possible implied imagery, it is what it is. I merely wanted a name to put to it.
while Country is on a different tangent than I, one about abuse at such places and what the word “farm” in general makes one think of.
no “congratulations” necessary.[/QUOTE]
No.
Having this lightbulb moment is a great experience that will never let you fall for empty phrases again. Most of us will never have it, never care to look at it, or, as in some cases, actively look away from it, because their dogma demands it.
Intensive farming or intensive agriculture is the industry word they use.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8234676]
The word farm brings to mind the traditional farms we like to think about, animals in a pasture or a pen at least large enough room to move around, experience sunlight etc. If they are slaughtered they led a decent life up to that time.
"Farms "does not bring to mind the methods of intensive agriculture to most people who are aware of the difference.
It’s not the slaughter that is the issue it’s how the animal is kept during its lifetime that is the issue.[/QUOTE]
You don’t decide what words mean. We do.all of us.
I don’t say commercial dairy vs dairy. It’s a dairy. I don’t think Commercial Angus Operation, I think Cattle Farm. If I say ‘that’s a nice operation they’ve got going there’ …surely one can surmise I know the difference between an appendectomy and a farm…right?
So…
How common is this? Flying horses is not cheap, it’s hard to imagine this is a cost effective method of importing to Japan when they:
a) have no reason they cannot farm horses themselves (much of Japan is extremely rural), and there are horses there.
b) have China much closer.
It makes very little commercial sense to me. Horses from the UK are (regrettably) sent abroad for slaughter, but that’s via ferry - not 2 horses a crate via air…
[QUOTE=Doodlebug1;8234836]
So…
How common is this? Flying horses is not cheap, it’s hard to imagine this is a cost effective method of importing to Japan when they:
a) have no reason they cannot farm horses themselves (much of Japan is extremely rural), and there are horses there.
b) have China much closer.
It makes very little commercial sense to me. Horses from the UK are (regrettably) sent abroad for slaughter, but that’s via ferry - not 2 horses a crate via air…[/QUOTE]
Made in China? :lol:
I think it is cheaper to fly horses in from Canada than raise them large scale in Japan. It might be rural, but not very big.
Having seen videos of the slaughter process in Asian countries it is not humane. The belief being the stress of the animal before changes the taste of the meat for the better. Does anyone remember how when whale hunting videos were being posted of whales tied off to the side of the ship still alive and how sometimes it could take a couple of hours for the whale to die? The world in its outrage forced the whalers to shoot the whale killing it instead of letting it suffer for hours. The processing of dogs and cats is basically the same. no humanity there at all.
I should add that australia, one of many countries is shipping in live animals: cows, horses etc for human consumption to Japan and China.
Those links posted by countrywood are not quite true. Crop rotation is alive and well in large scale farming operations. Animal waste is still used for fertilizer. Pits are pumped and manure is drilled into the ground. Many large dairies are using methane digesters. Farmers and ag scientists know all about pesticide resistance that is why they want to continue to modify crops with resistance to herbicides besides glycophosphate. It was in the plan all along not the result of something they didnt know would happen as the antis spin it. Integrated pest management has been widely accepted for a very long time.
I just don’t understand how food is going to be produced without intensive agriculture.
I am sure everyone was up in arms about the loss of all of the cattle lost in 2013. They are outside. Beef cattle are.
Is it just the large numbers of animals that people have issues with?
I don’t particularly think hogs living with groups of the same age in climate controlled buildings with all the food and water they want and sprinklers and heat lamps have it that bad. Maybe they would be happier in the sweltering heat with fly bites on their ears and eating our leftover food scraps but I think they would be about the same. Tradeoffs really
I am on my phone so I apologize for run on sentances, typos and the like. 
[QUOTE=andylover;8235020]
Having seen videos of the slaughter process in Asian countries it is not humane. The belief being the stress of the animal before changes the taste of the meat for the better. Does anyone remember how when whale hunting videos were being posted of whales tied off to the side of the ship still alive and how sometimes it could take a couple of hours for the whale to die? The world in its outrage forced the whalers to shoot the whale killing it instead of letting it suffer for hours. The processing of dogs and cats is basically the same. no humanity there at all.
I should add that australia, one of many countries is shipping in live animals: cows, horses etc for human consumption to Japan and China.[/QUOTE]
Who’s videos?
Also, that implies that China is Japan, Is Korea, Is Indo-China…
Uh, no.
That’s like saying Canada is USA, is Mexico…
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8235098]
Who’s videos?
Also, that implies that China is Japan, Is Korea, Is Indo-China…
Uh, no.
That’s like saying Canada is USA, is Mexico…[/QUOTE]
The term “Asian” is pretty broad in its scope, but I dont think I was implying that China is Japan etc.
As far as the videos I cant remember where I saw them posted.
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8234810]
You don’t decide what words mean. We do.all of us.
I don’t say commercial dairy vs dairy. It’s a dairy. I don’t think Commercial Angus Operation, I think Cattle Farm. If I say ‘that’s a nice operation they’ve got going there’ …surely one can surmise I know the difference between an appendectomy and a farm…right?[/QUOTE]
The words “industrial”, “intensive”, “commercial” and “factory” farming are commonly used in public and academic debate on these topics. The fact that you don’t happen to use them proves nothing - except that you’re probably not especially well read on this topic.
So why so belligerent?
[QUOTE=Bluey;8234587]
You may be missing the most important point here, that it is crazy to bring this and that example of something we don’t like and then bash everyone that is even remotely connected with it as doing it all wrong, according to what you think.
If you really know about animal husbandry, you should be aware that there are many, many ways to do things, many, many ways different situations demand different management and that the practices keep changing as better ones come to light and are implementing.
One study was showing that, from all industries out there, agriculture was the one that changed, used new technology and so improved the fastest of any, the most progressive by all measures.
That includes how we manage animals also.
We can see that reflected in how we manage horses also.
What some are doing when they bash farmers with their “factory farming” as accusations is the equivalent of freaking out when driving down the road and seeing horses in pens that are wearing fly masks and believing they are being abused by being kept blind so they don’t jump fences to get out from their prisons (true story).
It is crazy indeed to think we know something we, if we give it enough tough and look around us, should realize we only know a smidgen of what all is out there, definitely not to have any kind of sensible, knowledgeable opinion to blame all and everyone based on that.
As we say, using the abuse card by taking any and all possible to misrepresent or outright present out of context to try to eliminate all we do with animals, right down the alley for animal rights extremists.[/QUOTE]
Seriously Bluey? You have zero knowledge of my first hand experience outside of the tidbits I gave. How dare you assume that you and you only have the right to an opinion? It’s called opinion for a reason.
I believe that there is always room for improvement in the lives of the animals we eat. How is that so wrong? Why are you the only one who’s right?
The purpose of these forums is to discuss differing opinions, not to blast others because they don’t hold your views. Discussion. That’s what adults do.
Why is expecting the people who raise our food (myself included), to do so in a humane manner, such a terrible idea?
Argh.
[QUOTE=JBD;8231319]
If they were confined in a small crate all the way from Canada to Japan then yes I think that is horrible.[/QUOTE]
We shipped horses from Holland in crates just like this and paid a good dollar for it too. This is how horses are shipped by air. We did not eat the imported horses
[QUOTE=Sunwhinnies;8235264]
Seriously Bluey? You have zero knowledge of my first hand experience outside of the tidbits I gave. How dare you assume that you and you only have the right to an opinion? It’s called opinion for a reason.
I believe that there is always room for improvement in the lives of the animals we eat. How is that so wrong? Why are you the only one who’s right?
The purpose of these forums is to discuss differing opinions, not to blast others because they don’t hold your views. Discussion. That’s what adults do.
Why is expecting the people who raise our food (myself included), to do so in a humane manner, such a terrible idea?
Argh.[/QUOTE]
Seriously, that is all you got? Argh.
My point is that NONE of us know but a very little.
When we are talking about what others do and why, we should not take sound bites from those that make a living bashing them, here farming and expect that is any kind of sensible opinion about it, as we can see reflected in posts here.
I don’t know but a small part of how we do things, but I know that.
Others don’t seem to know what they don’t know or have the background to understand their opinion is faulty, or compromised by other’s propaganda against farming.
Those have their minds made up and closed, nothing anyone that is working in those fields can tell them anything, they won’t listen, just google furiously to confirm their bias and question any and all and keep bringing their suspicions that someone has to be doing things wrong.
That is the way some post are coming across, critical and demanding “people need to do it better!”, disregarding that everyone does that already, has always done so.
All livestock groups started long ago to standardize practices.
In 1986 the Beef Quality Assurance programs were already bringing the newer information to everyone as it was becoming available, as new management and technical improvements happened.
The ones that don’t learn all along and keep applying what we know is better won’t be doing anything long, it won’t work if they don’t apply themselves to do the best for their animals.
The same if it is your dogs or horses or other livestock.
You say, all haughty sounding:
—“Why is expecting the people who raise our food (myself included), to do so in a humane manner, such a terrible idea?”—
Do you really stop to think the accusations your phrase imply?
You are calling all that raise food uncaring and terrible people, the equivalent of calling out in a crowded room, “how many times did you beat your wife today?”
If that reflects what you think you know of farming, sorry, I will have to repeat, it is way off the mark, maybe be your opinion, but is a very lacking one.
