I am a horrible person for not being shocked and appalled by this video?

[abrant]

Can we return to the idea that it’s cost effective to fly these horses from Canada to Japan?

I feel like people flying horses from Europe for import as sporthorses are getting taken for more than a plane ride?

I mean, I know the cost of import is largely quarantine. But isn’t just freight in the $8-10k range? If you get 1000 pounds of meat (being generous) that adds $10 a pound to the price on the hoof (which for a purpose bred horse would be decent, right?) Seems expensive?? I know in the US we are spoiled on the cost of food and protein but $10 a pound seems like a hefty surcharge! I can’t believe that they’re paying close to what the sporthorse industry pays for freight…

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=abrant;8235380]
Can we return to the idea that it’s cost effective to fly these horses from Canada to Japan?

I feel like people flying horses from Europe for import as sporthorses are getting taken for more than a plane ride?

I mean, I know the cost of import is largely quarantine. But isn’t just freight in the $8-10k range? If you get 1000 pounds of meat (being generous) that adds $10 a pound to the price on the hoof (which for a purpose bred horse would be decent, right?) Seems expensive?? I know in the US we are spoiled on the cost of food and protein but $10 a pound seems like a hefty surcharge! I can’t believe that they’re paying close to what the sporthorse industry pays for freight…[/QUOTE]

considering you/we ain’t buying it - what do you/we care?

But to be serious, Japan is expensive: You can (could) expect to pay something like 3 bucks for one apple. You think that is not expensive?

The US has relatively cheap food, a point I was reminded off when I discussed prices of meat with my dad. He commented how food these days is actually cheaper than it was 40 years ago…and he still rather buys his loin on sale and puts it in the freezer for when the mood strikes.

If the price wasn’t viable, they would not do it, or ship the horses by the pound, in the freezer.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=abrant;8235380]
Can we return to the idea that it’s cost effective to fly these horses from Canada to Japan?

I feel like people flying horses from Europe for import as sporthorses are getting taken for more than a plane ride?

I mean, I know the cost of import is largely quarantine. But isn’t just freight in the $8-10k range? If you get 1000 pounds of meat (being generous) that adds $10 a pound to the price on the hoof (which for a purpose bred horse would be decent, right?) Seems expensive?? I know in the US we are spoiled on the cost of food and protein but $10 a pound seems like a hefty surcharge! I can’t believe that they’re paying close to what the sporthorse industry pays for freight…[/QUOTE]

One possible explanation is, you may ship one horse, maybe there will be six in a flight, once a month.

If an airline has a contract for six horses every other day, guaranteed business, they may be able to do it at a discount?
Not that I have the foggiest idea, just a guess.

[abrant]

I was able to roughly sketch out that the actual price to buy in store is ~$20/pound. So maybe $10/pound to ship makes sense.

But at the same time, curious when things tend to cost what people will pay and the possibility that an animal for sport and an animal for food could vary significantly for airline travel.

Maybe if you ever need to transport a horse to Japan you tell the shipping company you plan on eating it?

[andylover]

I would like to inject a thought. In a lot of cases, there has been public outcry with horses being shipped via ships that take days. I, first must say I am not in agreement to shipping anything live for this purpose, but maybe it is easier and more humane to fly then to ship?

[PeanutButterPony]

[QUOTE=Red Barn;8235157]
The words “industrial”, “intensive”, “commercial” and “factory” farming are commonly used in public and academic debate on these topics. The fact that you don’t happen to use them proves nothing - except that you’re probably not especially well read on this topic.

So why so belligerent?[/QUOTE]

You missed my point by a country mile. A farm producing masses of product is a commercial business. Country wood said ‘farm’ was a warm and fuzzy word, one that didn’t capture the horrors of ‘that’ farming. I disagreed. Sorry it flew right over your head.

[Sunwhinnies]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8235364]
Seriously, that is all you got? Argh.

My point is that NONE of us know but a very little.

When we are talking about what others do and why, we should not take sound bites from those that make a living bashing them, here farming and expect that is any kind of sensible opinion about it, as we can see reflected in posts here.

I don’t know but a small part of how we do things, but I know that.
Others don’t seem to know what they don’t know or have the background to understand their opinion is faulty, or compromised by other’s propaganda against farming.
Those have their minds made up and closed, nothing anyone that is working in those fields can tell them anything, they won’t listen, just google furiously to confirm their bias and question any and all and keep bringing their suspicions that someone has to be doing things wrong.

That is the way some post are coming across, critical and demanding “people need to do it better!”, disregarding that everyone does that already, has always done so.

All livestock groups started long ago to standardize practices.
In 1986 the Beef Quality Assurance programs were already bringing the newer information to everyone as it was becoming available, as new management and technical improvements happened.
The ones that don’t learn all along and keep applying what we know is better won’t be doing anything long, it won’t work if they don’t apply themselves to do the best for their animals.
The same if it is your dogs or horses or other livestock.

You say, all haughty sounding:

—“Why is expecting the people who raise our food (myself included), to do so in a humane manner, such a terrible idea?”—

Do you really stop to think the accusations your phrase imply?
You are calling all that raise food uncaring and terrible people, the equivalent of calling out in a crowded room, “how many times did you beat your wife today?”

If that reflects what you think you know of farming, sorry, I will have to repeat, it is way off the mark, maybe be your opinion, but is a very lacking one.[/QUOTE]

Yup I’m all about sounding haughty. Why did you twist my words into this crap? Do you read for meaning or just to stir the pot?

You are one frustrating individual. Thank you for your supreme knowledge and life experience. No one can possibly compete with either.

I am so grateful for people like you who without, would make the world a boring place to live.

[roseymare]

Bluey never says she doesn’t expect the same things as you do- animals raised with respect in a humane manner.

[Sunwhinnies]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8235554]
Bluey never says she doesn’t expect the same things as you do- animals raised with respect in a humane manner.[/QUOTE]

No but my life experience doesn’t qualify me to comment, in her eyes. Only hers does apparently. Very narrow minded. And I usually like her.

And her way of twisting my meaning. Can’t stand that. Don’t claim that I imply anything when I clearly stated my opinion. My intentions are to be a fair minded, able to see things from both sides, kind of person.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[st_francis]

But some opinions are certainly worth more than others.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Sunwhinnies;8235539]
Yup I’m all about sounding haughty. Why did you twist my words into this crap? Do you read for meaning or just to stir the pot?

You are one frustrating individual. Thank you for your supreme knowledge and life experience. No one can possibly compete with either.

I am so grateful for people like you who without, would make the world a boring place to live.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sunwhinnies;8235590]No but my life experience doesn’t qualify me to comment, in her eyes. Only hers does apparently. Very narrow minded. And I usually like her.

And her way of twisting my meaning. Can’t stand that. Don’t claim that I imply anything when I clearly stated my opinion. My intentions are to be a fair minded, able to see things from both sides, kind of person.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.[/QUOTE]

I think we are having a problem here of communicating properly.

I see where your complaint is coming from, will try to do better.

I am taking in general terms, “you” as representing one way of understanding that is what some with agendas against farming are fomenting in their self appointed job of making their living off running anti-farming non-profits.

When I see that kind of mind set, that automatically assumes those raising and caring for animals are abusing them, then I try to explain why that is not so, just as we do when someone comes here insisting that we are all abusing horses just by merely riding them and oh, we can’t deny it, see all those spurs and whips we use to abuse them, why else would we have them but to torture them with?

Please don’t take it as a personal offense when I point that starting from the premise that all farming do wrong and demanding we do right, well, is not relevant to what we do in real life, any more than insisting that all that have anything to do with horses use spurs and whips to abuse horses, how could they, they need to stop!

I will try to do better at explaining what I am trying to say, sorry when I am not clear enough and sorry if my explanations are so frustrating.

[Red_Barn]

Apparently Bluey’s not up on current events either.

Are you people really unaware that there’s been a great deal of journalistic effort, as well as entire university courses, dedicated to the environmental impacts of factory farming, the pros and cons of GMOs, the ethics of industrial animal production, the global politics of agriculture, and so on and so on and so on?

This is very mainstream stuff, and very timely. There’s nothing at all personal about it, so going all hysterical and defensive is really quite inappropriate.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Red Barn;8235686]
Apparently Bluey’s not up on current events either.

Are you people really unaware that there’s been a great deal of journalistic effort, as well as entire university courses, dedicated to the environmental impacts of factory farming, the pros and cons of GMOs, the ethics of industrial animal production, the global politics of agriculture, and so on and so on and so on?

This is very mainstream stuff, and very timely. There’s nothing at all personal about it, so going all hysterical and defensive is really quite inappropriate.[/QUOTE]

That has been ongoing for decades now, it is not news.
These topics finally hit the press with the 2006 international conference in these matters, where the United Nations politics got the best of them and they used a trumped up study to insist people should quit raising livestock, see, it damages the environment.
Well, it failed to convince anyone and was quickly debunked, the UN apologized later, but that study and report took a life of it’s own on the internet, fueled by the anti-farming non-profits and here you have it, still showing up as if it was any but a snow job.

Read the Copper Report for more on this.

Now, of course anything we do, if it is humans or any other in this world, has an impact.
Ever seen what feral hogs do?
They are an ecological nightmare where they establish themselves and we seem to be behind the curve with them.

Right now, we are paving and building and so using more land for our many human endeavors than most anything else we do that changes environments.
The new farm bill is trying to work on that with the new land preservation programs.

No one is really asleep at the wheel about this.
If you are in any industry that impacts the environment in any way, there are huge regulatory programs out there that apply.
The world we work in is not a wild frontier, where people are just now starting to catch up on this, not in any we do, farming included.

Guess who are the ones that have been bringing forth those courses, attending and then furthering all those environmental sciences?
Many are farmers, plus is topic for every farm magazine you pick up.
Is part of the business, only news to those new to these topics.

[Red_Barn]

Guess who are the ones that have been bringing forth those courses, attending and then furthering all those environmental sciences?
Many are farmers, plus is topic for every farm magazine you pick up.
Is part of the business, only news to those new to these topics.

Then why are you carrying on like pissy school girl? If you really do know the issues, then you’re being bizarrely disingenuous in your attacks on others.

[Countrywood]

Since we can’t communicate in sign language, we have to communicate in words. Quibbling over the language is absurd…the reality is that people are either for or against something. You are either for or against environmental protection. You are either for or against humane treatment of animals including those raised for food.

Any of us can opt to learn nothing new, or can opt to do some research on a topic, easy as it is these days to do it over the internet.

[trubandloki]

The video in the OP did not upset me. It seemed like the animals were being treated fairly.

Here is my thought on free range farming versus ‘factory farming’ using my small sample of six - when my chickens are safely inside their coop and covered chicken yard nothing can eat them, they have food, water, shade, etc.
When my girls are left to free range they are meal to just about everything out there, and that everything has already gotten one of them. I am sure the coyotes and hawks would be much happier if I let my girls wander free all the time.

And then there is the other question - why do people post ‘you guys are too stupid, I am not going to bother with you anymore’ and then still keep posting? Go away if you say you are going away. If you want to stay, stay, but stop acting like a toddler.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8235730]
Since we can’t communicate in sign language, we have to communicate in words. Quibbling over the language is absurd…the reality is that people are either for or against something. You are either for or against environmental protection. You are either for or against humane treatment of animals including those raised for food.

Any of us can opt to learn nothing new, or can opt to do some research on a topic, easy as it is these days to do it over the internet.[/QUOTE]

When not listening to what others have to say, it is past being a difference in how we express ourselves.

Yes, you can, using the previous example, google all you want about how some trainer was found abusing horses and misusing spurs in horrible ways.
Some then take that as ALL that have anything to do with horses do that, see, there it is, it is true!

What those people that don’t know about horses, or have agendas they follow against humans using animals, is that the horse industry is huge, from people having a mini in their backyard and so on to all we do with horses.

We use horses and have for millennia in all kinds of ways.
BUT, that doesn’t mean we should not have horses because, see, someone somewhere misused spurs! and so all that have horses need to quit and let horses go back to be wild things.

THAT is the way some are treating farming.
They get some googled little part of something or other they don’t like and take off bashing all farming, because, see, someone somewhere is farming in a way I don’t like, if I know why or not, just don’t like it.
See, here, someone did wrong, is what farmers do, all evil, I tell you.
I demand they do better and won’t listen to any they have to say.
I can google and find someone that agrees with me how evil farming is.

When some posters come across like that, what is there to say, but that they are missing what farming is and is not?

Back to this video, a good example of just what I am saying, if it was presented as horses being flown to the Seul olympics, no one would have but learned that horses fly and this is how.
When it is presented as horses going to, horrible, slaughter, then some are seeing horses in terror knowing what expects them at the end of their flight.

It is easy to influence people to think and follow whatever we want them to follow.
We have to be honest and not abuse that power to influence others.
When some do, we should not be attacked for pointing that out.

[Countrywood]

Bluey, ever occur to you that you thinking others sound haughty is your issue not theirs? Does being informed about a topic make somebody “haughty?”

Your responses are difficult to address. A poster that speaks out against inhumane treatment of SOME agriculture, ( intensive farming), becomes in your mind a poster who accused all farmers of being cruel, wants everyone to go vegan, is against owning animals, is a PETA nut, or whatever else you want to invent about them.

Are you for, or against intensive farming methods of raising and caring for animals? Are you able to answer that without attacking me or my post? Either you are for someting or against it. Lashing out at other posters does not change that.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8235765]
Bluey, ever occur to you that you thinking others sound haughty is your issue not theirs? Does being informed about a topic make somebody “haughty?”

Your responses are difficult to address. A poster that speaks out against inhumane treatment of SOME agriculture, ( intensive farming), becomes in your mind a poster who accused all farmers of being cruel, wants everyone to go vegan, is against owning animals, is a PETA nut, or whatever else you want to invent about them.

Are you for, or against intensive farming methods of raising and caring for animals? Are you able to answer that without attacking me or my post? Either you are for someting or against it. Lashing out at other posters does not change that.[/QUOTE]

Nope, I am not addressing how to raise animals, but that some are objecting without really knowing what they are talking about.

When some are assuming that just because they consider some management practices wrong and insultingly call them “factory farming”, when they don’t understand what is going on, what is best management for that animal in that situation, when they bundle all under some kind of accusatory “factory farming” label, then yes, I will point out they don’t have the whole picture and their opinions are lacking.

Someone presented a very good example, explaining why her chickens were better of, in her situation, at that time, confined, not kept as someone that may not know any better but thinks they need to demand others do things the way they, in their wisdom, decide is best, here free range.
Right, free, but free to what, be crippled or/and eaten?

That is an important difference in valid opinions.

[Red_Barn]

. . . THAT is the way some are treating farming.
They get some googled little part of something or other they don’t like and take off bashing all farming, because, see, someone somewhere is farming in a way I don’t like, if I know why or not, just don’t like it.
See, here, someone did wrong, is what farmers do, all evil, I tell you.
I demand they do better and won’t listen to any they have to say.
I can google and find someone that agrees with me how evil farming is.

Except that nobody actually did this. Many people on this board own farms themselves, so it’s a silly criticism to begin with.

Clearly, you have issues of some kind when it comes to this stuff. Fine; I’m sure we all do, in one realm or another. But that’s no reason to condemn thoughtful people who take these things seriously, or who simply care about where their food comes from. That, I think, is a good thing, regardless of where one comes down on the specifics.