I found out my trainer gave a beginner lesson on my horse after she told me that only she and her assistant would be riding him

You own the horse, pay board, vet bills, essentially all the expenses of maintaining the horse, and on top of that you are paying a trainer to train the horse, generally interpreted as improving the horse.

Suppose non horse owning Suzie Q comes to you and says, honestly, “I don’t own a horse but I’d like to pay your trainer $50 to teach me, a rank beginner, on your horse. I can’t get on his case is he’s naughty, and I may yank him in the mouth, but any retraining, of course, is left to you. Oh, since he’s a 4 year old and I’m a beginner, if he spooks and dumps me, I may get injured, in which case I’ll sue you for a million dollars as owner of the horse. Since the trainer couldn’t get her lesson fee without “borrowing” your horse, this is an excellent arrangement for both the trainer and for me. It’s just you, the owner and person paying trainer who gets nothing and bears all the risks.”

If you had been asked in advance if this arrangement was OK with you, by either the student or trainer, would you have said yes?

What the trainer did was a form of dishonesty and theft. Even if a trainer is up front about it and asks if it is OK, often trainers will try to guilt the horse owner into being generous and “sharing” their horse with others. But it’s up to you as owner as to whether you want to share or not.

In this case she just went ahead and stole the use of your horse without asking permission, putting your horse at risk. She didn’t ask permission probably because understood that it’s a beneficial arrangement purely for her and the student, and detrimental to you.

I have been the victim owner of this type of behavior from several trainers. It is, indeed, a fairly common set of circumstances, and because it happens a lot, it may seem “normal”.

But the fact that it has become somewhat normalized does not make it OK. Your instinct is that you have been cheated, your horse put at risk, and your trust abused. Your instinct is exactly correct.

You wanted to give the trainer the benefit of the doubt, which is generous of you. Since this sort of thing happens a lot, possibly the trainer “thought you would be OK with it”. When you asked her about it, if she were an honest person who respected you as a client and horse owner, she would have fallen to her knees offering apologies for overstepping without clearing it with you in advance and swearing on a stack of bibles that in future no one other than she and assistant would be on your horse. Had she done that, you could provisionally go back to trusting her.

Once a trainer has clearly demonstrated dishonesty or lack of respect for me as a client, I’m gone. I don’t confront them to inform them of precisely why they’ve lost my trust and vent, and actually try to leave on pleasant or neutral terms. I say something along the lines of “You’re a great trainer, but I’ve decided you and I are not a good match as trainer/client and I’ll be leaving at the end of the month.” It’s likely that she’ll understand you’re leaving because she abused your trust, but you don’t owe her specifics beyond “This is no longer working out for me.”

If it were difficult for me to walk away because there were very, very few alternatives available, I would calmly inform her that you are very much not OK with her having anyone other than her or the assistant ride that horse and “clarify” (insist) that she agree to get advance permission before she puts anyone else on the horse. If she fires you for expecting to be respected as a client and treated honestly, pop a champagne cork at your good fortune.

4 Likes

You definitely caught her in a huge lie. My guess, it’s probably not the biggest lie she told that day, or that week, to people in her life. You have good reason to wonder what else you don’t yet know about.

It sounds as if she tried to divert you to focus on the beginner nature of the lesson, even without admitting it, rather than you simply saying that no lessons are ok on your horse. My guess is that this is how she navigates her life - tell what lies get her what she wants, then evade, distract, divert to avoid giving anyone a clear answer.

I’m guessing that you posted this thread to get a gauge on your own instincts about the situation. I think your instincts are right on that this is a big red flag. :yes:

Good luck on your next steps. If you will be kind enough to update us on what you do and how it works out, it will share the learning. Hoping that you and your horse find your way to a good outcome! :slight_smile:

6 Likes

The industry is way too permissive and forgiving of things like this. This puts you at liability risk, and could damage/set back your horses training. It only takes ONE time for a horse to learn something in fear, so one bad ride absolutely could cause long term harm.

You need to pull the horse NOW. If you leave it now that you know it was used by a beginner, you might be accountable if she uses the horse again and the rider gets hurt.

I wish people in this type of situation would do more than just pull their horse: lawsuits might help the industry shape up and be more upfront and honest.

(and unless your contract specifically says you allow the horse to be used in lessons, the default should be only the trainer/training team is working the horse - regardless, I don’t think ANY underwriters allow horses younger than 5 years old to be used as lesson horses.)

I would be livid, tactless and OUT OF THERE>

6 Likes

As someone who is frequently appalled at the lack of good business practice in the horse industry … nonetheless, I doubt a lawsuit will accomplish much of anything, other than draining the pockets of the person who sues.

People who lie for a living view things such as lawsuits, evictions, bankruptcies, credit dunning letters, etc., even outraged howler emails and letters, as just another piece of paper. It doesn’t matter what anyone does or says, they have bigger dramas going on at the same time in some other aspect of their lives. They have evasion down to an art and a science. They will never answer up or pay up for everything they get up to.

It’s like nailing jello to a tree. Anyone who is determined to be serious about holding them accountable will be the one who suffers the most.

I would be extremely upset and would no longer want my horse to be anywhere near that trainer.

3 Likes

@OverandOnward Are you sure? This would be a small claims case, which wouldn’t require a lawyer. Worst case as far as I know is you are out time and a filing fee…what am I missing? Risk of being blackballed in the community? I doubt it: this is pretty egregious behaviour. This trainer put the horse at risk, the owner at risk, and the student.

I agree with OverandOnward. What would you claim in terms of monetary damages? The value of a missed training ride is maybe $50. I doubt you could convince a non horsey judge that letting a beginner ride a horse for 45 minutes caused damage to the horse, unless the horse ended the lesson with a broken leg.
A small claims court may “award” you a judgement. However, they don’t enforce the judgement by using the courts to actually make the respondent pay. Most small claims judgements go unpaid.

2 Likes

Up to you on how to continue, but I personally would pull my horse.

I’ve stepped back from the industry due to shenanigans like this. I see both sides of it in most cases - but if I can’t trust someone to be honest with me about the little things, I can’t trust them to be honest with me about the big things.

I had my really nice horse with a really nice trainer for a while; when he got there, my horse was assigned to his long time assistant. Not exactly what I was paying for, but he had something like 30 horses in the barn and obviously - he can’t ride them all, and he isn’t always there due to show schedules and whatever, so once I vetted the assistant - all was fine.

However, she quit and the next time I was out, his new assistant was on my horse and - frankly - she rode worse than I did. He was in a bind and I think had slim pickings and was trying to get everything going with what he had available, which I totally understand, but I wish he would have just said - look, I don’t have the space/time to ride yours with my assistant leaving. I left, hopefully not on bad terms and wished him well - but it’s a weird space as an owner.

I understand that as a business you definitely need the profit coming in from as many horses as possible. I also understand as a business that you need to cater to your wealthy clients. It may be a controversial opinion and I don’t think trainers intentionally play favorites or shaft the poorer amongst us, but when you have one client paying full board and training on six horses versus another client paying full board and training on one horse – when push comes to shove, mine gets the backseat. I understand that, it’s part of life. It’s like at work - if I have a project for my boss and a project from a coworker, my boss’ takes priority since he signs my paycheck.

However, as a client, I got tired of getting shafted. I never felt it was an intentional slight or done in a mean manner, but I understand that I’m not a trust fund client or a CEO. I have a set budget and I try to make it go as far as I can and help out where possible, but I’m never going to be the client filling the trailer or paying five figure commissions on sales/purchases year after year.

My horse lives at home right now. He’s incredible and I wish I was out showing, but for where I am and what I do in this industry - it’s really hard to get around some of the biggest and best barns who show at our “weekend” shows without paying for him to be in full training 100% of the time. I did my time paying $20K a year just on training/board and I got tired of doing it. Last year I took off and this year, I’ll be doing the local 2’6’’ hunters - which I can do on my own.

If this is your first run at having a horse at a full training facility, I think you need to probably sit down and evaluate where you are and where you want to go. Sometimes you have to suck it up and deal with your horse being on the lower priority list. Sometimes you have to find a trainer with a smaller program. There’s a variety of options, but a lying trainer is definitely a no-go.

1 Like

Interesting points, very well thought out.

I see one of the biggest challenges of the trainer business model is that the trainer is essentially selling their time, as a teacher and/or a rider. And a negotiator of horse deals.

But there is a hard limit on the amount of time a trainer has available. It’s not a manufactured widget that allows the seller to increase production (and even get a cost benefit from doing so).

So trainers try to stretch their time by using assistants to do some riding. But so often there is a big gap between the assistant’s time teaching & riding and the head trainer, whose expertise is the foundation of the business in the first place. It’s hard to close that gap, especially when the assistant is a learner.

And if an assistant is good, the closer their skills are to the trainer, the greater the risk that they go out on their own and possibly take some clients with them. And be very hard or impossible to replace. (Seen that happen more than once - trainers should learn to use a non-compete agreement, as do many other businesses.)

Trainers deal with the time conundrum in different ways, some better than others.

In light if the added information, IMO you are getting screwed and paying for substandard trading services. But unless rider qualification and restrictions on who rides your horse is in writing in your contract? There’s no legal recourse and besides that, I would no way want to call a trainer out for unethical practices while they still had care, custody and control if my horse.

You need to move, You might be better off to find a barn that does not offer public lessons ( non owner clients) requiring use of somebody else’s horse, especially if the barn doesn’t have enough school horses . And no way I would pay a “training fee” for anybody who didn’t ride better then me.

This can and should always be spelled out in the contract. It always was in my barns over many decades. Some language that only trainers or assistants are authorized to ride and nobody that didn’t ride at least as well as the owner client would ever be allowed on. That’s no guarantee but greatly reduces the opportunities for shady trainers to double dip by charging client for training ride then teaching a lesson on it and charging lesson taker fir the lesson and maybe adding a horse use fee to triple dip.

Even in barns with no training service or small, private barns, there was always a clause about only owner and any other riders specifically named and authorized by owners in writing would ride.

Please don’t say there’s no other barns. There always are but no barn is perfect and check every box. So you might need to modify which boxes are checked on your wish list. Don’t know about anybody else but I never checked my wish list boxes for paying for training while trainer teaches lessons on my horse or paying for incompetent ‘assistant” schooling ride.

Move.

5 Likes

I’d pull my horse from training but stay at the barn if the trainer is separate from the barn manager. If the trainer is also the barn manager or the BM answers to the trainer, I’d find another barn. A trainer who finds it appropriate to use a green 4 year old in a beginner lesson has poor judgment and I wouldn’t want them to have any decision-making power over my horse.

4 Likes

I meant NSBA

Since your back , how did the horse turn out?

:exploding_head: You come back 3 Years + later to clarify?
& Yeah, what happened with the horse?

5 Likes

There seem to be many people resurrecting very old threads lately, and not in a helpful manner. I suppose there must a reason that people do this, but most don’t seem to have a good one.
I don’t understand why many old threads are brought back with no new insight.

4 Likes

Sometimes things get bounced up by spam.

Sometimes people realize they had a notification ages ago or they come across an old thread and reply without thinking about the date. It’s easy to do.

Most posters aren’t likely that invested in thinking about the dates or whether a topic is still live.

4 Likes

most likely it is because of Suggested Topics that the software generates ti encourage reader activity. This forum’s activity has been decreasing for a long time.

I am seeing Suggested Topics for me to read with the last activity that go back fifteen years

7 Likes

Yes, this is very true about suggested topics.

Also, anytime I do a Google search for a horse topic, one of, if not the top hit that comes back is something that was posted here. It’s easy to click on without seeing that it’s something that was posted years ago.

2 Likes

Also, on COTH there is no auto-lock on aged threads. That is, if no activity in 2 years or whatever time span, the thread is locked. If someone wants to update, start a new thread and link the old one. If someone thinks the topic is still relevant in some way, same. Auto-lock might be worth adding as a feature.

2 Likes