I was really shocked by the lack of “togetherness” of most of the rides.
strung out horses with no impulsion.
At this level I really thought I was going to see better quality.
The cross cantering was impressive as well. And pretty much everyone had issues with it.
Wonder what was up with the approach and why did it tend to throw everyone out of wack…?
[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7729167]
I was really shocked by the lack of “togetherness” of most of the rides.
strung out horses with no impulsion.
At this level I really thought I was going to see better quality.
The cross cantering was impressive as well. And pretty much everyone had issues with it.
Wonder what was up with the approach and why did it tend to throw everyone out of wack…?[/QUOTE]
It was a 1*…with riders under 18. Most are not yet together and relatively green to the level (since I think you have to be 14 before you can even ride at that level–and many wouldn’t have been at the level that long).
[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7729167]
I was really shocked by the lack of “togetherness” of most of the rides.
strung out horses with no impulsion.
At this level I really thought I was going to see better quality.
The cross cantering was impressive as well. And pretty much everyone had issues with it.
Wonder what was up with the approach and why did it tend to throw everyone out of wack…?[/QUOTE]
While I agree that some of the riding made me worried, you have to remember these are CHILDREN. Half the kids that went through the rides looked younger than 16.
I will say I was disappointed that so few kids had truly independent seats; most riders did not really set their horses up for success, and many just ‘pointed, pulled, and shoot’ - instead of guiding their horses tactfully with clear aids and encouragement.
But, on that tangent one must again remember that these are developing young riders, not adults - and that they show great promise for their age. At our age they will likely have more ‘togetherness’, or an independent seat - and likely will have become much better at riding as a whole.
For their age and the amount of time they’ve probably been in the saddle (or rather, the short amt of time they’ve been in the saddle) I thought that the riding was appropriate.
I was not happy, however, with the excessive whip smacking - the girl that fist-pumped after setting her horse up for failure made me disappointed.
So, they are kids…I’m glad there are so many great horses. The ones that obviously made the decisions, like the ones that slithered into the water as safely as possible…worth their weight in gold.
The horsemanship was lacking & the smacking - unacceptable. What coach let their student run around XC with braids? Not good; that girl needed to grab mane & it wasn’t there.
And while they are kids they are doing a dangerous sport & I question why some of the coaches and parents let their kids do it. Far too much ‘looseness in the tack’ for that level. Iffy decision, leads, no decisions, bad distances - all part of the learning curve, but general looseness & lack of independence, it’s too dangerous IMO.
I watched the whole video. There was some excessive use of the whip I think. But geez I’m happy the video of when I did the CCI* didn’t get posted online! I lost one stirrup over the out of the water and then promptly lost the other one trying to find the already lost one :lol:
Some of the young people there probably just got qualified. I’m not up to date on the qualifications anymore since I haven’t ridden at that level for a few years. Realistically though some of these people could have been riding at prelim since the beginning of the 2014 season. Again it’s been a few years since I rode at prelim, but from my time at prelim that is definitely a tough question! Especially if it was later on the course and off of a long slightly down hill gallop (just speculating on this, I really have no idea).
Hopefully the young people will have learned from what may have been there toughest course with the most pressure to date and come out at their next outings with more knowledge. I know I sure did!
I think it’s fair that things don’t go picture-perfect and smoothly for all of the riders, because many probably are new to this level, and with horses you can only plan so much. However, at the 1* level the questions are certainly demanding enough that a biff in judgement can lead to serious injuries or worse, so if you are going out there you should be adequately prepared to perform. There was some wing-and-a-prayer going on in that video that gave me the impression that it was probably a representative presentation of their skills and not just a bad hair day. I’m not saying I could do it any better, but I sure as heck wouldn’t try.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7729162]
wow…I was going to stay out of this but can’t now. Those going on and on about lead changes…I call BS. You have obviously NOT ridden xc at this level. The first part of the video was a CCI1* (and this was where there were to most cross cantering/counter canter)…so these kids are all 18 and under and would have at most been riding at this level for 4 years with many not riding at that level for even that long. I suspect this question (head of the lake) was toward the end or at least 2/3 the way around—just based on the way things look and horses look. That means these kids and horses have been galloping and jumping for likely over 5 minutes. Horses GET TIRED and riders GET TIRED. And if it was earlier in the course–horses are often strong and rank! You also do NOT ask for a lead change in water. The focus is keeping the energy and getting the canter going as every stride in water zaps energy and has a drag–making the water to water jump a fairly technical jump. The approach looks a bit tricky as well and difficult to see on the video but I suspect it is slightly down hill after having a bit of a gallop…some of the kids were having trouble getting their horses back and balanced for the turn to the water…and the last thing you want to be doing coming into a water jump like that is pulling back. After dropping more than 4 feet into water and doing a bending line to a water to water jump on a probably tiring horse—the last thing (and it shouldn’t be even a thought in the rider’s head) is getting a damn lead change. The focus would be to get your balance back, and keep your horse in front of your leg and get them straight to that 2nd element…all while YOU as a rider are probably also feeling a bit tired.
The rides in the last part of the video is the CCI2*, and as would be expected, these riders are both older and more experienced and the horses in general are coming in much more balanced both on approach and in the water…all though that is a pretty decent drop in. Again…I doubt a single rider thought, and the they shouldn’t be thinking, a damn thought about their lead.
I would guess that just about ALL of those horses, jumping at home or just in a ring do lead changes. It isn’t a lead change issue at all.[/QUOTE]
Nope haven’t ridden this level, but I was pointing out that clips like this is what brings out people asking about them. No doubt most of these can do changes, I think it highlights balance and straightness the most. I get being tired and I get being nervous and new to a level, you do not always ride to the best of your ability at that very moment. That does not change that quite a few were not balanced (regardless of lead) and for many it cost them. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done well. No one was coming in here and saying they suck, most praised the good rides and looked for ways for some might be able to improve. That is what I look for every time I watch something and in my own riding. I find that a lot of people do not take criticism well. Half the time when I say something it is also for my own learning and put it in my bank “I remember seeing this and when they did x it didn’t turn out well, the ones that did y did better, I am going to try my best to do y as well” You never learn anything if you aren’t told what you are doing wrong.
The changes are just easy to point out, but really they come from proper forward movement, straightness and balance, all things I would really like to have coming into a jump like that!
[QUOTE=whbar158;7729374]
Nope haven’t ridden this level, but I was pointing out that clips like this is what brings out people asking about them. No doubt most of these can do changes, I think it highlights balance and straightness the most. I get being tired and I get being nervous and new to a level, you do not always ride to the best of your ability at that very moment. That does not change that quite a few were not balanced (regardless of lead) and for many it cost them. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done well. No one was coming in here and saying they suck, most praised the good rides and looked for ways for some might be able to improve. That is what I look for every time I watch something and in my own riding. I find that a lot of people do not take criticism well. Half the time when I say something it is also for my own learning and put it in my bank “I remember seeing this and when they did x it didn’t turn out well, the ones that did y did better, I am going to try my best to do y as well” You never learn anything if you aren’t told what you are doing wrong.
The changes are just easy to point out, but really they come from proper forward movement, straightness and balance, all things I would really like to have coming into a jump like that![/QUOTE]
Changes have nothing to do with the issues seen in these rides. The straight and balanced rides on the “off lead” went just as well.
The issues in these videos boil down to approach, balance, rhythm, impulsion, rider error, passiveness, lack of independent seat and aids, and lack of control. Being pretty and on the aesthetically pleasing lead wouldn’t have changed the rider errors
The cross cantering, by and large, is a product of rider error in approach, not lack of education to the leads on the horses part.
A few thoughts–
Everyone has a bad jump. I know one of those riders, and she had a brilliant round–except the water, where she had what she called a really bad jump (based on that video I would put her in the middle of the pack). Everyone has a bad day or a bad jump or whatnot, so saying they shouldn’t be there is hardly a fair assessment based off of one jump (I can think of more than one instance over the years where someone would probably say I didn’t belong at X level based on that jump).
There were a few “bad luck” instances–the horses that fell looked good going in but seemed to hit that deep spot and went down–not because of the rider. A few others had bad luck there but were able to make it work.
That deep spot was a problem from the beginning, but it seemed that riders could avoid it in either direction and actually have a better distance. Why was SOMETHING this not communicated to the riders who went later? The jumps seemed to be numbered separately (as evidenced by the girl who came unseated and wisely chose to circle, regroup, and then jump the second but suffered only time faults), so there was no need to worry about the distance. Why did some of the other riders who were pitched forward not take the time, either?
There was a lot of less than stellar riding, but I am not one to cast stones (having not ridden at that level). What bugged me was some of the horrible horsemanship, particularly with the whip (5 hits?). Were some of these riders never taught how to reorganize and represent to a fence? On the flip side there was some good stuff–the girl who retired caught my eye. The ride in wasn’t great, and the stop was almost inevitable. Okay, mistake, NBD. The represent wasn’t ridden particularly well, but it should have been enough had the horse been willing. It was clear that what happened scared the horse a bit, and she didn’t hesitate to receive that message and respond by calling it a day, despite the pressure. They can go home, do some homework (both of them), and come back a stronger team for the experience.
Lots of people run XC in braids, particularly in other countries.
It was educational to see how much not just the pace or the lead or even the turn or the spot mattered. It was 100% balance. The horses that were balanced could make it work from any distance or circumstance, and the riders who were balanced were able to stay the heck out of the way.
[QUOTE=whbar158;7729374]
Nope haven’t ridden this level, but I was pointing out that clips like this is what brings out people asking about them. No doubt most of these can do changes, I think it highlights balance and straightness the most. I get being tired and I get being nervous and new to a level, you do not always ride to the best of your ability at that very moment. That does not change that quite a few were not balanced (regardless of lead) and for many it cost them. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done well. No one was coming in here and saying they suck, most praised the good rides and looked for ways for some might be able to improve. That is what I look for every time I watch something and in my own riding. I find that a lot of people do not take criticism well. Half the time when I say something it is also for my own learning and put it in my bank “I remember seeing this and when they did x it didn’t turn out well, the ones that did y did better, I am going to try my best to do y as well” You never learn anything if you aren’t told what you are doing wrong.
The changes are just easy to point out, but really they come from proper forward movement, straightness and balance, all things I would really like to have coming into a jump like that![/QUOTE]
My my point is those focused on the “lead” and asking why no lead change are showing a lack of understanding of riding xc. The lead doesn’t matter…it is the balance and impulsion that matters. You don’t ask for a lead change in water. If a horse gives it, great. But that should NOT be even a thought in a riders mind. You DO help balance the horse better both on the in and in the water. There absolutely was some green riding and things not going well, especially for the 1*. Lack of organization on the in as well as to the second element. (Some good riding too). But the focus on lack of lead changes is just not what the problem was.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7729523]
My my point is those focused on the “lead” and asking why no lead change are showing a lack of understanding of riding xc. The lead doesn’t matter…it is the balance and impulsion that matters. You don’t ask for a lead change in water. If a horse gives it, great. But that should NOT be even a thought in a riders mind. You DO help balance the horse better both on the in and in the water. There absolutely was some green riding and things not going well, especially for the 1*. Lack of organization on the in as well as to the second element. (Some good riding too). But the focus on lack of lead changes is just not what the problem was.[/QUOTE]
This. And cross cantering happens…but it’s about balance as others have said. I have a lead change happy horse who often swaps whenever he damn well pleases, including in the show jumping ring, (and sometimes in the dressage ring, to my displeasure). He’s so balanced doing it that I rarely notice while jumping anymore…and he’s run Advanced and jumped clear multiple times.
The approach to that fence is not my favorite. Galloping down the hill (end of the course?), then super sharp turn with only a few strides after the turn to a big drop for 1*. It’s just asking for the kids to run down that hill on tired horses on their forehand and then the kids forget to use their outside aids to turn and balance up. Would have rather seen the two star riders do that turn and the one star kids get the straighter approach.
And if I’m thinking about my leads at any point on XC, I’m doing it wrong. I’m too busy thinking about pace, impulsion, balance, body position, adjusting for my horse’s change in stride size throughout the course, thinking about how best to ride the next fence, etc. If my horse is balanced and he’s still cross cantering, have at it. He knows how he wants to jump. That’s his job. And I trust him to do it right.
No one talking about lead changes wants them in the water, BFNE. that turn doesn’t even require one. It’s a pretty soft bend and no SJ would do a lead change there. That’s a red herring. It’s the strong right handed turn to A that has way too many horses doing everything from trotting on the forehand to cantering a sharp right handed turn on the left lead or cross leads that made a few people comment that “boy, wouldn’t it be nice if they could get the horses balanced and on the correct lead for that.” Balanced being more important, of course…I’d be happy with that no matter what the horses are doing with their feet.
It is true that I haven’t ridden upper level XC. I have ridden a decently high level SJ, though, and if you are going to have twisty SJ turns on a XC course, then maybe the horses are going to have to be SJ rideable now on XC to be safe for the kids. The best XC riders’ horses come back and are adjustable on XC; maybe it is time to make sure that trickles down to keep the sport safe if they are going to build courses the way they do now.
**ETA – reading Divine Comedy’s post, I think we are just talking past each other because that is exactly how I feel about my horses. I think if the horse is balanced the lead changes would just be happening. Maybe on command if you want, maybe because it just flows, but it would happen. If it cross canters and is still balanced, whatever.
Thanks for sharing the video! It is very interesting to watch. Some great recoveries and some questionable riding. I was amused to see the girl on the bay who’s horse stumbled a few strides into the water, causing her to miss the jump - she could have circled in the water, but chose to go all the way around the first jump. I guess that’s the best approach she thought of.
I thought more than 3 smacks behind the leg was elimination. I thought I saw a few, though the one that really stick in my head was eliminated anyway. Also, not understanding the smacks after the jump when the horse totally saved the day.
The last 5 minutes of the video was great, as I do have to remind myself to look for the jump on a turn or bending line. I saw some jumps that went better than otherwise due to looking for the next jump and a few riders that really needed to look for that next jump.
[QUOTE=Ajierene;7729677]
Also, not understanding the smacks after the jump when the horse totally saved the day.[/QUOTE]
A few of those were because the horse was behind the rider’s leg–not responding to the rider’s leg. They still have jumping efforts to go…and even if you cleared a fence, if a horse crawled over, you might land and give a few taps to say “Hey” “wake up and get going” Especially if they are getting a bit tired. Not something I’ve generally had to do at novice or training…but when they drop behind your leg and are lugging both before and after the fence, you might do it to get them up and going again. It isn’t a punishment for the fence just jumped…but prep being done to both get them going (they are against the clock and you want to GO on the back side of every fence) and get them sharper and in front of their leg for the next fence. If you get NO response…then you know you are in deep sh%$ and may need to pull up your tired horse.
To those who say “they are only 18”…in comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf37wIEFVTg&list=PLygX-ItLQtDNYsv_w4LurFRThG2v20o1O
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7729752]
To those who say “they are only 18”…in comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf37wIEFVTg&list=PLygX-ItLQtDNYsv_w4LurFRThG2v20o1O[/QUOTE]
Oh hands down in general, the European kids have ours beat. But still, there are a lot of European kids who also do not ride that well at under 18. Just look at the size of the junior rider divisions in this country/Canada v. the UK. It is a bigger sport in the UK so more kids start at from a younger age.
Same is true for the ammys. They have FAR more riders who compete at the 1* and 2* levels, even non-professionals than we do.
These are exactly the videos I was comparing to in my head! Forward, positive riding! If mistakes are made they are done going forward and in balance giving horse and rider a better opportunity to recover.
I don’t think it’s our kids fault that they aren’t there yet but how do we cat them up?
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7729752]
To those who say “they are only 18”…in comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf37wIEFVTg&list=PLygX-ItLQtDNYsv_w4LurFRThG2v20o1O
Speaking to New Zealand…
I think the difference is that other parts of the world are much better at forward riding than the US. We are taught to micro manage more where other countries just teach kids to kick on. I swear half of my lessons in NZ involved the instruction to “just kick it” repeated at least 15 times. We never focused on setting up for the fence, just on a quality, balanced canter and going forward. We would tape all of the horses (18+ at shows) and watch it back with the pro I worked for. She would count 1-8 outloud repeatedly to the canter rhythm and then show us when/if she lost the canter. Typically if she lost it, she had a rail or an awkward jump. We did not worry about getting the perfect distance or anything of the sort. It was all about the canter.
They also have a totally different mentality about horses over there than we do in the US which makes a big difference. They are not pets - they are livestock. It is hard for me to describe, but I think this is what attributes to the “let them sort it out” attitude. That mentality plus forward riding makes all the difference. We also did exercises that used the terrain and the countryside, and it really taught us to trust our horses.
We need more instructors that know how to teach kids and the horses to appropriately mount them. I had an ex-advanced horse over there to compete at training level on. Want to guess what he cost me? Less than $15,000…
I think a lot of those kids were definitely appropriately mounted. They just need to learn to get a good approach, kick on, and get out of their own heads.
[QUOTE=EventingChase;7729826]
These are exactly the videos I was comparing to in my head! Forward, positive riding! If mistakes are made they are done going forward and in balance giving horse and rider a better opportunity to recover.
I don’t think it’s our kids fault that they aren’t there yet but how do we cat them up?[/QUOTE]
I’d be curious how many of the European kids start out in fox hunting.
[QUOTE=EventingChase;7729826]
These are exactly the videos I was comparing to in my head! Forward, positive riding! If mistakes are made they are done going forward and in balance giving horse and rider a better opportunity to recover.
I don’t think it’s our kids fault that they aren’t there yet but how do we cat them up?[/QUOTE]
Part of the reason that the kids across the pond are better is because everything is very easily accessible. Pros are within miles of each other, excellent schooling opportunities practically a hack down the road. Not every UK kid is a stellar rider. I think across the pond, they have a lot more opportunities, and as a result, have a higher concentration of great riders.
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