I hate horse trainers

[QHEventer]

[quote=“Scribbler, post:16, topic:767258, full:true”] I’m always amazed at how tentative boarders can be about the basics of horse care.
[/quote]

Absolutely this. There is a culture of dependency on trainers and barn staff and so many basic horsemanship skills are no longer being taught to a large number of “clients”.

In the past when I boarded, I’ve been asked by long-time horse owners how and where to give an IM shot, how to lunge a horse, how to administer dewormer, how to put on polo wraps (really?!) It’s kind of sad to see how many skills are not being passed down any longer…because some clients DO view their trainers as “staff” and expect that these things are done for them. Basic horsemanship skills are “beneath” them. Sad, really.

Sorry to get off topic - rant over

[Ponyplusaninch]

OK but here’s the thing: I would so much rather someone ask for help or ask someone else to do those things correctly than have someone haphazardly guess at what’s right. The beauty of a well-run program is that you can be assured (in theory) everything is done correctly, every time.

IM shots, lunging–doing those things can be dangerous and detrimental to the animal if not done correctly, and they only way you learn to do it correctly is if you’re doing it regularly.

The fact of the matter is most amateurs do not have the luxury of time (or at least I sure as hell don’t) to get the repetitive experience needed to learn and master a skill unless it’s in that 60-90 minute slot with Dobbin 3x a week. Grooming, blanketing, polos–all of that should make sense. If Dobbin needs regularly needs lunging, then yeah, that should be a skill you pick up.

But like I wouldn’t fault someone asking for someone else to help lunge if they had a horse that never really needed it.

Yes, I’ll admit there are those who think horsemanship skills are “beneath” them, but I’ve found that to be the minority, really. It’s much more a time thing since a lot of amateurs–in order to afford the sport–have to be in the office, plus taking care of family, plus whatever else they need to function.

BTW @QHEventer this isn’t all specifically directed at you, your post just provided a springboard for general convo.

[Spudsmyguy]

A trainer I knew was a recovering drug addict and had been sober for quite some time - a few years I think. He had a client that was constantly (in a joking manner) making comments to him that he was on drugs, you’re high, you’re drunk, etc. He kept deflecting it until he lost it on her and told her to knock it off or move your horses out. She got all huffy and said in a snarling way “I am the client, I pay your bills” thinking that just because she had 3 horses in full training gave her the right to talk to him this way. He ended the relationship and she ended up selling all her horses at a substantial loss.

[Horselove5]

@society

I don’t want someone else to ride my horse, I want to improve and have a coach on the ground to guide me.
Things have changed.

It’s called commercialization and the trend is worldwide, but particularly here IMO. It’s much easier and profitable to have an access to quality (often imported&proven) horses via your students, than to actually buy or produce them yourself. In another thread, ppl were asking why there are not enough YH riders in the States, low supply of homemade HJs and so many mid-teen projects… Well, it’s the business model - get students, teach them the bare minimum, keep them dependant on your programm, get quality horses from oversees. Who cares about the horsemanship skills when the client is happy? Just praise them “awesome, good job, very well done”, while they barely stay on the saddle and can’t even hold the reins properly (witnessed it the other day).

@society

There is not a barn in my area that doesn’t require a training program. I don’t need my hand held, just guidance.

It’s how they stay in business and make their living, which is fine but only if they actually put the effort/show the skills to produce riders.

[TheDBYC]

@QHEventer

how to put on polo wraps (really?!) It’

Everyone has gaps in their knowledge. Especially now, when liability concerns have all but rendered the barn rat extinct. I’ve been hanging around horses for 40 years & I’ve never done polo wraps. I’m the product of the working student program at a massive riding school in the 80’s. They kept it simple & used brushing boots. No polo wraps because someone surely would’ve f-ed it up & bowed a horse’s tendons. And this was no fancy show H/J barn with 1:1 grooms. It was a time & place where both the vet & barn manager had no concerns whatsoever about 14yo me handling the care of an overheated lesson horse by myself – they knew I knew what to do.

[Fiesta01]

@QHEventer

It’s kind of sad to see how many skills are not being passed down any longer

This. I don’t know how many times I’ve been asked to take the temp of another boarder’s horse. Yes, they have the thermometer in their first aid kit, but have no idea how to use it.

[StormyDay]

I once had to show a vet, an actual trained veterinarian, how to put on a standing wrap. He could not do it. He tried. He put the Velcro on the leg first and then wrapped it really loosely and then was confused when he got to the end and couldn’t secure it.

I did it for him.

This has nothing to do with anything, it’s just one of those moments where I’m like ‘did that really happen??’

[Scribbler]

So I’ve never needed to give an IM injection to an animal, but I’m sure if I had a horse that required shots I would ask my coach to show me how. I’ve never ridden with polo wraps and I haven’t needed a standing bandage since once or twice circa 1975. I can soak and wrap an abscess. I can do touch up rasps between trims. I can design and carry out a coherent feeding plan. I can longe but if I was going to long line or ground drive I’d want some instruction. I can teach a horse to climb on a circus box and play fetch. I can hitch and unhitch and drive and load and park a trailer. Etc. It’s all in what you need for the horses you work with. I’d say most of my self board barn friends have never given an IM injection because the need has not arisen. We could all learn if we had to.

[horsegurl]

@iJump-oh lordy…I wish!

[horsegurl]

@StormyDay. Lol. My previous horse, kept getting abscesses. Several in just a couple months time. I kept insisting to my vet that it’s Cushing’s. She did an ACTH test, which he was still in the normal range, yet High. She would not prescribe for me. I went to another vet who did cortisol suppression test oh, and he failed that miserably so I got my Prascend prescription, and he never had another abscess! Good old Google really does diagnose a few things! LOL.

[horsegurl]

@Texarkana. Bingo! Lacking in upper level experience .
@KBC- you are right. In the past days, we’ve had mega-weather, and despite being SOAKED in the rain, had a great time caring for my horse! And some rides with the dressage trainer netted a great result for us both. There’s always a daily victory. Thanks.
@vxf111 yes! Not too many choices around here.

Interesting feedback from everyone. Thanks.

[foursocks]

I am here to set your mind at ease and tell you that bowing a horse’s legs with polo wraps would be very, very hard to do! Actually, impossible, since it’s a bandage bow, not a true bowed tendon, which is when the tendon itself is hyper-extended. To get a serious bandage bow the person would have to put them on so tight that I feel like any sane person would realize that was wrong, although maybe I am being overly optimistic.

horsegurl, I’m glad you are having a better time of it!

As for the general debate over having a trainer or not, the best pros in the world have trainers. We all have different needs as riders, as do our horses, and some people just need eyes on the ground while others benefit from a trainer putting buttons on their horse, or giving it a refresher course or whatever. There are certainly a lot of programs that don’t produce capable riders and instead create dependency in their clients, but no one has to be in that sort of program! If you don’t like it, find a different trainer. If the ones in your discipline aren’t useful to you, try a different pool (I am a jumper who rides with eventers and it’s great).

I don’t care what other people do, who they ride with, what sort of program they are in. I have seen plenty of people who really, really could benefit from a trainer, or a better one than the one they have, but that’s their problem, not mine. I am glad I have a comprehensive education and I consider myself a horseman, but I’m not going to be snotty if someone else has less education than I do; there are plenty of people who have a lot more than me!

I know that I do best with the help of a trainer and I find it incredibly useful that the people I train with now are high level competitors who improve my horse when they ride him. That also helps them understand what I am feeling from my horse, so my lessons are about helping me and my horse improve as a team. I make most of the decisions about my horse’s vet and farrier care and so on, but I have trainers to ask if I need more help. That works for me, but if someone else has different needs or appreciates a more structured, hand-holding program, that’s their business.

[TheDBYC]

@foursocks

To get a serious bandage bow the person would have to put them on so tight that I feel like any sane person would realize that was wrong, although maybe I am being overly optimistic.

Yup! Waaaaaaaay optimistic. Waaaaaaaayyyyy optimistic. If you’ve never read about the ongoing antics of some of @endlessclimb’s fellow boarders, hop over to the Daily Dumb thread and treat yourself .

I could certainly learn to polo wrap. It’s just never been a pressing concern. Polos vs boots seems to be one of those touchstone issues where you ask 3 horse people and get 5 opinions. We’re H/J & eventing people in my family. The trainers I’ve ridden with over the past decade or so will occasionally use polos in specific instances for dressage. Otherwise, they use well-ventilated boots.

[Spudsmyguy]

The lack of upper level experiences is very true. When I was starting out in horses, I thought most of these things were what everyone in horses knew or learned to do. There was a woman who rode with Barney who didn’t have a clue how to put on her own chaps or how to tack up a horse correctly. I can do a polo wrap but I don’t own any at the moment, never had a need for them. I can back a trailer just using the side mirrors and am amazed at how many people can’t manage it and have to get someone else to back for them.

[foursocks]

Oh, well, hope springs eternal! People are pretty dumb, though…

Also, I’m not advocating you learn how to polo wrap! I was just being a know-it-all, mostly. After I wrote that it occurred to me that I don’t ever use polos, anyway. They are useless. I’ve never understood why anyone bothers with them. I did like using Equifit’s T-sport wraps when my older guy’s legs would blow up a bit and I didn’t want to put his tendon boots on. Sort of like a compression sleeve. Those are useful, but polos are just fuzzy socks.

[TheDBYC]

Oh, no no. I didn’t mean to come off that way about it! I knew what you meant

[EmilyM]

I want to talk about how you haven’t needed to bandage a horse since the 70s. You must be one of the luckiest horse owners ever. What’s your secret to preventing your horses from maiming themselves. ?!!

[SuzieQNutter]

@EmilyM

I want to talk about how you haven’t needed to bandage a horse since the 70s. You must be one of the luckiest horse owners ever. What’s your secret to preventing your horses from maiming themselves. ?!!

Mainly for the last 50 years I have used Debrisol and tru blue for wounds. Both do not need bandaging. Both are sprays. Tru blue if it just a scratch. The debrisol then the tru blue over it if it is a wound.

The debrisol sloughs off proud flesh and promotes healthy healing. The tru blue turns the wound purple so as the flies are not interested in it.

I use permoxin for Qld itch and any skin issues. It will not burn. Allogard is a liniment that will not burn, for muscles and will also heal wounds. My instructor used it on a horse that did not come for breakfast and she found him impaled in the chest by a branch. The wound was up to her elbow.

I used the allogard for a wound when my company horse fell off the truck but his front shoes were caught on the truck. He jumped back onto the truck and took all the skin off his back legs. It was only so many weeks until my exam. He healed and I rode him in the exam. No bandaging.

Pepper ended up with a swamp cancer overnight the size of an egg. I used blue stone then debrisol and tru blu.

So yes I am devastated that true blu doesn’t seem to be made any more and yes I was born in 1970.

[mvp]

@Horselove5

Don’t quite get what’s this rant about but I’ve two things to say on the matter:
1.everybody needs a trainer if they’re perusing riding as a sport (even the top riders).
2. If I’m 100% the owner and unless the trainer pays my bills, I should always have the last say in all that concerns my animal.

If you’re disappointed with how it’s done, change the environment. If you ever have the chance to get out for a while - go to Europe and see the difference for yourself. you will find an abundance of highly qualified trainers.

Yanno, the folks who have enough money and knowledge to get to Europe on a quest for better horsing aren’t usually the ones choosing mediocre pros and/or getting bossed around by them. JMO. In fact, in the past I would have said the same for “getting out” and spending time in a higher-end market in the US where trainers have deeper educations and résumés. But I do think it’s possible that the under-40 set of pros one can find today, even at America’s AA shows, don’t have quite the depth I think either of us is talking about.

[mvp]

@Ponyplusaninch

OK but here’s the thing: I would so much rather someone ask for help or ask someone else to do those things correctly than have someone haphazardly guess at what’s right. The beauty of a well-run program is that you can be assured (in theory) everything is done correctly, every time.

IM shots, lunging–doing those things can be dangerous and detrimental to the animal if not done correctly, and they only way you learn to do it correctly is if you’re doing it regularly.

The fact of the matter is most amateurs do not have the luxury of time (or at least I sure as hell don’t) to get the repetitive experience needed to learn and master a skill unless it’s in that 60-90 minute slot with Dobbin 3x a week. Grooming, blanketing, polos–all of that should make sense. If Dobbin needs regularly needs lunging, then yeah, that should be a skill you pick up.

But like I wouldn’t fault someone asking for someone else to help lunge if they had a horse that never really needed it.

Yes, I’ll admit there are those who think horsemanship skills are “beneath” them, but I’ve found that to be the minority, really. It’s much more a time thing since a lot of amateurs–in order to afford the sport–have to be in the office, plus taking care of family, plus whatever else they need to function.

BTW @QHEventer this isn’t all specifically directed at you, your post just provided a springboard for general convo.

I respectfully disagree…writing as someone who learned to do all of these things (plus IV shots!) before I was in college. I had supervision, but also responsibility. And these were not my horses; I had the great fortune of being able to work for other people so I could ride at all.

Look, there is a first time and many “not enough to be good at it” times you’ll do things with a horse. (IV shots, I’m looking at you.) But here’s the thing: There will come a day when your lunging or loading or poulticing or injection-giving or evaluating this horse for colic, or getting a horse uncast or using a twitch safely or ponying a horse or clipping ears will be the only ones available. IMO, you have to really embrace that reality and responsibility and, knowing that, commit to learning how do to these things as best you can. Also, knowing that you can do those things well enough to get the job done makes the whole horse care/owning thing more enjoyable because you don’t feel vulnerable to needing help that you can’t get or don’t like the cost of.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m a huge fan of expertise and one of those OCD biddies that hates mediocrity and incompetence as a matter of philosophy and taste. And I take the quality of horse care seriously, having been a show groom by the time I was in college. But people let me wrap horses and lunge them and give injections, with supervision. They knew I wouldn’t be perfect and didn’t let me put a horse in actual danger. But I was allowed to be passable/safe until I got better.

I do think the modern ammy is in a bit of a fix if she has just one horse, because not every horse will need lunging or wrapping or his ears clipped or special techniques for accepting having his mane pulled or whatever. But I don’t agree that someone who sees their horse only 3 times a week can’t be expected to learn these things. They can, if they choose to use their time differently. I still suck at braiding because, while I know how to braid properly, I have not put in the hours of practice it takes to get good at that. That’s a choice on my part, and I don’t like the choice I keep making to not put in the time.

I also think the old timey barn rat like I was is becoming a more rare and valuable commodity. And never wanted to be the poor working kid then! But I did see more horses and more things done and more ways to get things done than most clients do today.

My point is that competence and some acceptance of Good enough being good enough lets horse ownership feel a whole lot better. It feels great to be able to purchase reliable, honest competent help. But the essence of this thread is that that is becoming a scarce commodity. So while consumers/clients can defend the legitimacy of their need to need those things they can’t get, that doesn’t actually lead to a solution or help them feel better.