After breeding TB’s/Live cover, for over 30 years, a crazy, dangerous situation today made us start thinking about collection/AI for clients and our some of our mares.
June 1st a TB mare was sent to breed to our ISH stud - specifically live cover -AI is not an option at this time and the teenaged mare has always been live covered. She left the vet’s office 5 hours from here ready to ovulate. An odd senario to ship a mare that far at high 90’s, that close to ovulation, but we accommodated. Seems the mare does not show heat…ever, but we did breed her that evening after the sun went down and she had a chance to settle in a bit. She stood fine. Absolutely refused to have the stallion in the same zip code 2 days later and went home a few days after that.
They had her checked at 21 days post breeding and SURPRISE - she was empty. Brought her here Thursday - “ready” to breed Sat night or Sun morning. As I wrapped her tail and washed her she was obviously in heat. Didn’t show to stud, but stood to be approached. When stud raised up to mount she bolted out from under him. We regrouped, applied lip chain, stallion approached. She squealed, ran over me knocking me flat on my back and stepped on my foot as she left the area. When my head hit the ground (dry hard clay) the sound of a crack was deafening. I scrambled and rolled out of the way as the stud was coming behind her. The stud was surprised, too, but immediately stopped and stood avoiding me!! I’m too darn old for THAT shit very often!!!
Not for this time, but…how hard is it to learn collection and insemination/shipping techniques. We have a very nice breeding mount, but have never used it!! I don’t have anything else though. And bummer is…my wonderful vet (who has collected and shipped our paint stallion in the past) is due to have a c-section Tuesday morning, so is obviously not available. What AV is the easiest??
Wow! What a mess! You should be checked for a concussion. I feel your pain, after standing Thoroughbred stallions, doing live cover for over 20 years. Have had some mare issues and (usually) handling both by myself – Thank God for wonderful boys! You are sooo fortunate though – you have Kathy and Jos in Oklahoma, not sure how far from you, but you could learn from the best by visiting with them and learning. (Equine-Reproduction.com – they post here, too). I doubt anyone knows more about breeding and the “how-to’s” of it all – email or call them and have a drink! Hope you are ok, glad your stallion didn’t get hurt, too.
PennyG
We’ve had our share of difficult, client mares over the years. Our own mares are all easy/manageable…or don’t live here anymore. It’s hard with an unknown mare…who seemed willing!! DH is an excellent stallion man, but our ISH is big, powerful and “ready”!! The fact that he stopped in his tracks and did NOT trample me is honorable!!! HE was never in danger…the mare didn’t kick…just left!! I’m big enough, strong and experienced, but she caught me by surprise. By tomorrow I should know what other damage she did to my poor body!!
After this current mare is done (next stallion encounter, she will be Aced) we are finished for the season, so I’ve got a good bit of time to get taught!! My own vet is excellent…just indisposed at the moment!
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;5684481]
Not for this time, but…how hard is it to learn collection and insemination/shipping techniques. We have a very nice breeding mount, but have never used it!! I don’t have anything else though. And bummer is…my wonderful vet (who has collected and shipped our paint stallion in the past) is due to have a c-section Tuesday morning, so is obviously not available. What AV is the easiest??[/QUOTE]
Ah yes…a convert <smile>. Really does just take one nasty moment to change one’s perspective…ask me how I know that <rolling eyes>.
Truly, collecting a stallion is NOT rocket science. With older stallions, it can sometimes take a bit more work to get them to cooperate, but usually they cross over really well and easily. We prefer using the INRA French AV. It combines the best attributes of both the Colorado (better heat retention and hard outer shell can help to keep a stallion from hiking up the mount) and the Missouri (adds the glans stimulation of a Missouri and lighter weight) and eliminates some of the drawbacks of both (Colorado = HEAVY Missouri = super flexible and can sometimes be difficult to get on a stallion). It also is “adjustable” in that you can slide the rubber “hood” up and down to accommodate those boys that are…well…better endowed than the little dudes.
The big thing when collecting is attention to detail and being willing to adjust what you’re doing and being at least somewhat agile. If you need some coaching, feel free to drop me an email…
Good luck!
Oiy, your poor head. You were VERY lucky your boy was well-mannered enough to snap out of his sex drive in time to see you on the ground and avoid you. What a good boy he is! And kudos to you for all of the obviously good ground training of your stallion.
This is one thing I take issue with the Jockey Club about - in this day and age with all the available technology, insisting on live cover is just plain crazy. How many people have been kicked because of the mare, or run over like you were, or how many stallions have been severely kicked by the mare. I can think of at least a couple stallions who’s breeding career ended because of a well-placed kick by a mare. There’s nothing wrong with getting a stallion artificially collected and inserting the fresh semen by AI directly into the mare.
Kathy’s reply is excellent, as always, but I also second the suggestion to visit Kathy and Jos’ Equine Reproduction website. They have a forum on there that may answer all of your questions.
This is why I always, always wear a helmet during collecting or live cover - no exceptions! I just went with a light weight Troxel with vents on the side, as surprise, surprise, I seem to sweat while collecting. 
We made a bit of a joke out of it and painted some fun horse cartoons on the side of the helmet with acrylic paint. It sits in our lab and is only used for breeding. Much better than a trip to the hospital…or worse! :yes: If something goes horribly wrong, my legs and arms will eventually heal. My head…not so much!
Round 2 didn’t go any better!!!
Strike two and OUT!!! We waited until almost 8 pm tonight for the temp to cool down and the breeze to pick up. The Mare From Hell was super lovey to anyone she could see…horsing, nickering, screaming to the stallion, out of sight in the barn at that point. I gave her 4cc of Ace, IV and waited 15+ minutes until her eyes were droopy. Walked her to the breeding pen. Blue (stud) came walking like a little choir boy. No screaming or dancing. I had positioned her about 7-8 feet in front of the solid plank, teasing wall to prevent forward bolting (and I WAS wearing my trusty helmet!). Blue got within about 6 feet and she spun her butt on him and opened fire. She kicked him in the upper neck and fluid was flying everywhere…at first I thought it was his blood, but no…it was pee and discharge!! Sparing the details…I ran and got a twitch (haven’t had to use one of those in 10+ years. Every time I reached for her nose she struck at me with both front feet. Gave up on the twitch! Snapped her to a 30 foot long soft cotton rope run around, but not tied to a 12" post in the fence line and tried to approach with the stud again. That b**ch looked like a giant nail gun shooting out back hooves…and aiming at Blue, DH, and me at her convenience!! Told DH to put the stud away and took the mare to her paddock. As I was unwrapping her tail she was STILL pissing! WTH??? I think this is the first time in our breeding history that we did NOT get a mare covered who was in standing heat!!! I’ll be calling the owner in the morning. There is no way in hell we and/or the stallion are getting killed just to breed this mare.
Any ideas why the mare is so hateful?? She has been live covered her whole breeding life 14 years old - has had 5-6 top show horse foals and is faithfully checked by a good repro vet.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;5684998]
Any ideas why the mare is so hateful?? She has been live covered her whole breeding life 14 years old - has had 5-6 top show horse foals and is faithfully checked by a good repro vet.[/QUOTE]
Have her checked her again. You absolutely sure she’s not in foal? Typically, the number one reason for a mare to behave like she is, especially as she has stood like a rock previously is that she is already in foal…
Good luck!
I agree. :yes: Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense that she stood perfectly still the first time and now she is in panic foal. I’m also thinking she is pregnant…and it’s not unusual for them to show a false heat while pregnant. It wouldn’t be the first time a pregnancy was missed on the ultrasound.
VERY strange behaviour indeed!
Is the vet that is checking her seeing an actual breedable follicle when he is ultrasounding her???
I have found that Ace doesnt work diddley squat. We always use Dormo on difficult mares along with Torb if we know we need the heavier artillery out - it totally incapacitates their hind end and in 99% of the cases, they cannot lift it up to kick with, but watch - in her case, she’ll prove to be the exception to the rule! :rolleyes: . And we either use the Stableizer along with a chain shank, or a lip chain - no exception - when we are breeding. I’d rather have the leverage and not have to use it, rather than NOT have it and scramble to gain some control without it
Just spoke to another SO last night whose stallion got kicked square in his testicles and a month later, they are having one heck of a time getting him to approach a mare and I cant say as I blame him either
What a mess! I am also SO glad that I got my phantom set up here and can do my own collecting from here instead of having to truck 30-35 minutes each way to get it done. The best move I ever made and I’d never have it any other way
Good luck - hope you are okay and you can get this sorted out
Really nice stallion though. I love my TOTB daughter:)
I can sympathize, Crosscreeksh. We had a similar encounter last weekend. Fortunately, neither my husband nor myself was hurt and my stallion took a minor blow to the neck and scrape on the forearm.
We bred our own mare, who stood like tree for us last year to our stallion. (Normally, we only do AI, but in this case it was our own horses and to collect is 2 hours away. We knew she had been covered LC prior to our ownership.) With the beautiful filly she delivered for us kept within site but out of harm’s way and with a handler, we happliy thought we were going to breed again. This was not to be the case. The mare was adamant. Vet came out next morning and follicle was still present, so armed with torb/dorm, twitch and hobbles, we thought we would prevail. We were wrong. I, too, took a direct “pee” hit in the face 
and after four attempts, I told my husband I was done and I put my poor, rejected stallion away. She was tranq’ed to the hilt and hobbled and still managed to double barrel like a champ. I think in our case the filly caused her too much upset. Needless to say, she will remain open this year.
I hope your head feels better soon!
You know, it just might be worth it to not only wear a helmet but also one of those safety vests that the eventing riders wear. Geez, a kick to the chest or upper stomach would kill you. I hope you get it all sorted out. I definitely would not be dealing with this mare again. Her behaviour is just not worth you or your stallion getting hurt.
Will she paddock close by to your stallion or will she double-barrel the fence too? My ex-vet we used before we moved to our current location had a stallion and she always preferred to locate the visiting mares very close to the stallion so they could get to know each other. She claimed it made for safer breedings because the mare would have a chance to get used to his smell and presence. Maybe that would work?
Maybe she has taken a distinct dislike to your stallion for some reason? When I was working for a European barn, they had one of their own mares who would NOT be covered by their one older stallion. Yet, she would stand and nicker sweet nothings to the junior stallion during teasing. I thought he was crazy to risk a young stallion who had little experience, but the owner decided to attempt the 3 year old stallion and she stood like a charm for him. But anywhere near the other stallion and she was a lunatic.
The first thing that came to my mind was she was already pregnant. Blue is 3 for 3 with my mares so far. The mare was checked by the owner’s vet 5 hours from here (no referrence of expertese) - my vet is due for a C-section tomorrow and unavailable. Whatever the reason…we are done trying this mare. She could have wiped us all out!! Blue took MANY direct shots, but apparently with no harm done as he’s bright, happy and sound this morning!! (Tough ISH!!) More than I can say for myself…head’s OK, but muscles ache! Too late in the season for more tries, but in the future I think she will be an AI candidate…or with any luck, go to another stud???
TC - in the future I may keep Dormo on hand. We have a difficult mare (HUGE 1/2 TB- Irish/Clyde), but 4cc of ace makes her very nice/lovey. In years and mares past we have done the hobble/manhandle scene with limited success. I worry about the stud getting caught in the hobble straps. Just not worth the risk. Our mare doesn’t kick…she bucks!! There is NO way to stop that Hubby wanted to name the colt born 6 years ago “Seven Point Eight”!! I ruled against THAT!! With the ace she stands like a soft fuzzy statue.
Got to call the owner now. With any luck it is a missed preg by the vet, but better than hurt horses and handlers.
question (from a non breeder) why would anyone try to breed a mare that is not ready? why twitch, drug etc ? seems to me that if the mare says no there is a reason?
MBM - Because some mares will tease ready until they get into the shed and then turn violent. It’s just the nature of the game. Most mares are honest and when they tease ready, they’re really ready, but it’s not that way with all mares.
Definitely one reason could be an early undetected pregnancy in her case, or a decidedly strong dislike for this particular stallion; but, of bigger concern, is her behaviour towards humans which is also vile and dangerous with the kicking and striking towards people. She needs, to borrow a phrase from another COTH poster, a serious come-to-Jesus meeting and manners retraining especially when it comes to striking towards you with those damn front feet! Although that is not technically the responsibility of the stallion owner, it could be done if only to instill some measure of decent respect and safety until Ms. Hellion goes home.
Crosscreek - some particularly talented mares are still able to kick even with hobbles. This mare is quite willing to use all 4 weapons at her disposal and you’ll just get hurt. Your stallion is more agile than a human and better able to get away, plus he can read her body language far better than you and can anticipate better, not to mention his body is better equipped to handle the firing squad. Human bodies are much more frail and can’t handle the concussive pressure applied in the force of a brute kick. It’s not worth it. Call it quits. If she doesn’t turn up pregnant it may mean you’ll want to refund the fee to the MO, but let’s all cross our fingers that she’s preggers.
The TB breeders (who must use live cover) not only twitch the mare or use a lip chain, they also drug her AND use scotch hobbles/breeding hobbles.
Those poor mares are trussed up like a Christmas turkey!
Although I agree that if the mare accepted the stallion prior to this, it IS odd she should be so hostile now.
Maybe have your vet u/s her to check for pregnancy? As others have said, it wouldn’t be the first time a vet has missed an early pregnancy…
I’ve found over the years that some mares with a foal at side want that foal right there under their nose and will stand like a dream…if the foal is any distance away at all or worse yet, out of sight…hellion. Others, fine with the foal out of sight and hearing but really defensive/protective if nearby…varies from mare to mare and sometimes even year to year. And with mares that have been previously covered and suddenly decide no way on god’s green earth is that male coming anywhere near…already pregnant. Vets have been known to miss 'em. I’d have her rechecked for possibly already settled.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5685741]
The TB breeders (who must use live cover) not only twitch the mare or use a lip chain, they also drug her AND use scotch hobbles/breeding hobbles.
Those poor mares are trussed up like a Christmas turkey!
Although I agree that if the mare accepted the stallion prior to this, it IS odd she should be so hostile now.
Maybe have your vet u/s her to check for pregnancy? As others have said, it wouldn’t be the first time a vet has missed an early pregnancy…[/QUOTE]
TB breeders don’t use hobbles, but they will lift a front leg. I routinely have a lip chain and a leg up when covering mares. Most are quite cooperative, but you get that one crazy mare
I managed to score a set of breeding boots off of eBay this past year, a happy addition to my live cover arsenal. 
Per Sue McDonald (stallion behavior expert at…what? Cornell? One of those fancy colleges anyway…:)): it is an instinct that when the stallion approaches, the foal will scoot to the mare’s front and park itself just in front of the mare’s chest, where it will stay till the breeding is completed.
She has observed this over and over again with the herd of “feral” ponies she has been studying for decades.
My own observation is that once the foal is over a month old, the mare doesn’t really care (within limits of course) where the baby is once the stallion starts teasing her. We’ve held them apart from the couple, or locked them in a horse trailer/stall while the breeding takes place…I’ve never had the nerve to let the baby be at liberty while we are breeding…
I have limited experience breeding mares LC w/foals at foot, but that what I’ve observed in the few cases where I have done it.
