ICE The elephant in the room

[Angela_Freda]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It’s just the way Supply and Demand curves involving labor play out. The market will determine equilibrium price and quantity.

You and I both know there’s a portion of those in equestrian business who take very good care of themselves, while bare bones’ing pay, and other business expenses.

It’s their right, I guess, but it’s also part of killing the industry.
Choosing another personal show horse, new tack, bling*bling, etc all paid for by the business while woe-is-me’ing that they can’t keep employees or pay more than $15 an hour, or employ more than two people to care for 26 horses… they’re killing the industry with every $ they put into their own personal endeavors vs that of the business (ex: better equipment, replacing broken equipment, or upgrading equipment or infrastructure to make the job easier for those who put in the back breaking hours).

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

There are definitely some REALLY poorly run horse businesses. With owners/managers who make selfish choices, and inevitably staff and horses feel the brunt of that. And clients are expected to foot the bill to support it.

I consider myself fortunate to live in an area where there are many options when it comes to training and boarding. And it’s possible to avoid situations like what you describe… which definitely are frustrating.

I know it’s different in other areas of the country though, where options are much more limited. It’s a shame.

[timetorush]

I’m an immigration lawyer, so this is a topic near and dear to my heart. I will try to keep this “on topic” and apologies if it drifts too far.

The number one way to support your immigrant community members right now is to help educate them about what their rights are. There are many incredible Know Your Rights resources publicly available that help educate people on what their rights are, how to assert their rights, and safety planning they can do. Here are some resources:

Know Your Rights | Immigrants' Rights | ACLU

Know Your Rights: If You Encounter ICE

https://www.ilrc.org/resources/community/know-your-rights-toolkit

Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure apply to everyone in the United States, regardless of their immigration status. ICE needs a judicial warrant or consent to enter areas where an individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy. Public property, and public areas of private property that are generally accessible by members of the public, are not places where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. In my experience show grounds are generally accessible to members of the public.

I don’t know the citizenship or immigration status of any of the barn workers at my boarding facility, but regardless I will be asking my barn owner to think about prominently posting private property signs, signs saying authorized persons only, and seeing what options they will consider for keeping the entrance gate closed (rather than open 24/7) to reinforce that it is not open to the public.

ICE very rarely has a judicial warrant. They will try to wave around their administrative warrants that don’t mean shit and aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. They rely on people not asserting their rights and will do what they can to coerce and intimidate people into letting them in to private spaces. That’s why Know Your Rights education is so vital-- people asserting their rights, refusing to allow access to the property, and refusing to answer questions can and does thwart ICE activity.

[CBoylen]

@timetorush Would it be possible for you to explain briefly the pathway for a groom to achieve citizenship and the average time/expense and relative expectation of success? Presuming a skilled horse show groom if it makes a difference.

[sami-joe]

@timetorush

ICE very rarely has a judicial warrant. They will try to wave around their administrative warrants that don’t mean shit and aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. They rely on people not asserting their rights and will do what they can to coerce and intimidate people into letting them in to private spaces.

You are my hero. Thank you for your expertise and advice.

This reliance on ignorance of the law is true for all laborers in the USA.

I could go on.

[sami-joe]

Unless @timetorush is in Virginia, maybe hire someone on this list, stat: https://www.justia.com/lawyers/immigration-law/virginia

[Demerara_Stables]

@timetorush

ICE very rarely has a judicial warrant. They will try to wave around their administrative warrants that don’t mean shit and aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. They rely on people not asserting their rights and will do what they can to coerce and intimidate people into letting them in to private spaces. That’s why Know Your Rights education is so vital-- people asserting their rights, refusing to allow access to the property, and refusing to answer questions can and does thwart ICE activity.

Thank you so much for your post. Can you explain how a layman can tell the difference between a judicial and administrative warrant? Is the former signed by a judge and the latter not? What are my rights as a property owner to prevent law enforcement (specifically ICE) from entering my property in the instance that they are trying to question our gain access to someone on my property? I’m in CA if that makes a difference.

[Annie10]

@sami-joe

Unless @timetorush is in Virginia, maybe hire someone on this list, stat: https://www.justia.com/lawyers/immigration-law/virginia

Isn’t immigration law federal? So it’s the same nationwide?

[timetorush]

I practice humanitarian and family based immigration law, so I don’t have a lot of knowledge on the specifics of the various employment based options, but in general the unfortunate answer is that an employment based route to citizenship for a groom is incredibly unlikely. There are only a handful of categories of employment visas that can lead to permanent residence and eventually citizenship.

Edit: I’m already regretting dabbling in business immigration here so I’m coming back to edit for accuracy My guess is that horse grooms would fall into the EB-3 skilled workers category. Employment-based immigrant visas require going through the PERM certification process with DOL to establish there is no US workforce for that position-- if they are successful on that front, then the employer can file the petition with USCIS, then the employee waits for a visa to become available for their category (there are significant backlogs in many categories), then they can finally apply for their immigrant visa/green card. If they have any prior immigration violations like unlawful entry, accrual of unlawful presence, working without authorization, etc. that throws further wrinkles into whether they would be able to complete the process.

There are family and humanitarian based options that could be available to grooms, but honestly there are so many factors that can impact eligibility that it’s really important for someone to have a consultation with an immigration lawyer in order to fully screen for options for relief. Sometimes the outcome of a consult is telling someone, I’m sorry, you have no options under the current laws. Those ones suck. But sometimes they are eligible for something they didn’t know about! If we’re staying in the context of work environments, there are visas and forms of relief available to people who have been the victims of certain types of crimes in the US (U visas), been labor or sex trafficked (T visas), or experienced labor rights violations (deferred action for labor enforcement). T/U visas both have a pathway to citizenship and very generous waivers of inadmissibility grounds that might otherwise prevent someone from being able to obtain permanent residency.

[clanter]

@timetorush

There are only a handful of categories of employment visas that can lead to permanent residence and eventually citizenship

My daughter in law is Norwegian, she is/was a successful model working on a green card. It took about eight years and lot of attorney work for her to become a US citizen.

[Kemosabe]

I feel terrible for the undocumented workers in this country…they are just trying to work and take care of their families…just as settlers did 200 years ago.

They have been through terrible ordeals to get here…to have a chance at a good life. No different from the generations who came to the Americas before us.

Americans want cheap food, cheap labor, cheap products. We want our stalls cleaned for a pittance, and the fuel to run our trucks to be inexpensive.

Where is our compassion, our humanity. Have we grown so fat that we cannot slip our swollen feet into another person’s moccasins…feel what that person has gone through, walked through, prayed to?

I am not a Christian, but ICE and its directives seem 100% at odds with the ways of Jesus.

[CBoylen]

I don’t have a groom, I was just hoping to get an educated answer on the question because I think it’s important for these discussions, which are coming up more frequently.
I anecdotally know several people who have tried to help an employee attain citizenship, but the only thing I took away from them was “it’s expensive and really hard”.
Thanks @timetorush I appreciate the response.

[Bogey2]

You know that it’s not just “illegals” who have troubles getting in or staying in the country. A friends future daughter in-law fro New Zealand left the country for a trip 3 yrs ago and had trouble getting back in to the country. She had a job here, her dad has a business here, she had a fiancee here but her green card expired. She had to follow the rules to get back in and stay in. There are procedure for a reason and it took her 2 months to sort it out. She was actually stopped at the airport and had to turn around and go back to New Zealand.

[SillyHorse]

@Bogey2

She had a job here, her dad has a business here, she had a fiancee here but her green card expired. She had to follow the rules to get back in and stay in. There are procedure for a reason

What is the reason in this case?

[173north]

@endlessclimb

Barn workers are woefully underpaid. Yes, it’s [relatively] unskilled labor.

I just want to point out for the sake of clarity that there is a broad spectrum between barn workers and grooms. Barn workers who mostly clean stalls and drag the arena and do some turnouts, sure, that’s unskilled labor, although still hard work.

But grooms at an A circuit barn, a top dressage program, etc, are also often undocumented, and are certainly doing skilled labor. Plenty are more skilled than their high-profile bosses, and they are entrusted with very very valuable horses. In CA, lots of them are from families who have ridden for generations and they grew up on horseback. Some are beautiful riders. Many are only grooming instead of doing their bosses’ job because of their immigration status or because their English isn’t great. It’s not lack of skill - they are pros and most of them could run laps around the average US pro.

[Obsidian_Fire]

These people left their home country for… reasons. Speaking to the South American countries, there is a lot of corruption and cartels, violence. I cannot fathom what some of these people go thru just to get here. I am damn grateful to not be in their shoes.
The thing that always comes to my mind is why isn’t anything being done to address these issues so that these people want to “stay home”? To me that seems to be the underlying issue that nobody talks about. I know it’s a complicated subject.
I live in a town, and adjacent to another town, with a lot of migrant workers. Ag workers, mostly. I will be noticing any shifts in the general “feel” of my town, that’s for sure.

[chocolate_chip_in]

My aunt is a deep-pocketed amateur who kept her horses at home and was fortunate to employ one of these horsemen. She treated him like gold, as he deserved. One time she got sick of hearing someone in her circle’s comments about “all those unskilled Mexicans,” so she paid for her groom/trainer (who is not Mexican) to show her horse in the same class at Upperville. Guess who placed higher.

[Ghazzu]

@Obsidian_Fire

The thing that always comes to my mind is why isn’t anything being done to address these issues so that these people want to “stay home”?

Because the people who hate immigrants also hate foreign aid.

[timetorush]

This is a good resource on immigration v. judicial warrants written by people much smarter than me and also has some examples of what each document looks like: https://www.nilc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2025-Subpoenas-Warrants.pdf

The quick and dirty answers are, yes a judicial warrant must be signed by a judge or magistrate. If ICE (or any law enforcement, for that matter, now that other federal agents are being pulled off of criminal investigations and are being deputized for civil immigration enforcement) comes to your property without a judicial warrant you can tell them to leave and that they are not allowed entry into the property. An administrative ICE arrest warrant gives them no legal authority to search private property for the person they are looking for.

[Annie10]

“Nothing is being done” because the governments of those countries are making too much money off of what is going on