Ideas for a horse that bolts while lunging?

[QUOTE=tazycat;8996274]
If you don’t need to lunge then forget teaching him.Obviously it’s failed for 3 years to be able to teach him. Nice if they know how to lunge, but really not that important for a horse to know. To me it seems like a mindless task of going around in a circle.[/QUOTE]

Too many people think this, IMO, about lunging.
I agree with others that it can be a very important skill for a horse to have, invaluable to the rider/handler.

I also agree with those suggesting you need a round pen and a qualified professional, probably, at this point, to install it in this horse.

FWIW, I have an otherwise well-behaved OTTB that started bolting on the lunge, and it turned out to be pain-related. To rule that out, maybe try working him under saddle on a 10-meter circle for a prolonged period and see if he does the same thing.

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[QUOTE=tazycat;8996274]
Nice if they know how to lunge, but really not that important for a horse to know. To me it seems like a mindless task of going around in a circle.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8996299]Too many people think this, IMO, about lunging.
I agree with others that it can be a very important skill for a horse to have, invaluable to the rider/handler.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Angela. Basic skill.

The trainer/rider can watch how the horse is moving.
Watch how the horse is interacting with the bit (using side reins).
Judge the horse’s mood or physical state for the day.

Horse learns obedience.
Horse learns to bend around a circle without weight or hands interfering.
Horse can warm up under tack without risking the rider (or starting a fight whichever the case may be).

I have a sort of out of the box solution…at least I haven’t seen it said here. (I don’t longe much, but it’s definitely useful for the horse to know how to do it safely.)

If he was started and used by the Amish, he can certainly ground drive. I’d start there, but with one caveat. If he was just driven or mostly driven, he may only be used to wearing blinders with someone on the ground/while being driven.

I did the following with a driving horse turned riding horse:
So I’d start ground driving/double longeing with blinders–both straight lines and circles. (Having the double lines through the surcingle also gives you a bit of leverage if he decides to scoot off.) Then once he has that down, move to single longeing possibly still with the blinders. Then move on to working without blinders whichever way he’s most comfortable. He may just not be used to seeing someone on the ground in that capacity. Just some thoughts!

For those who say to skip longeing, I disagree. I’ve BTDT with one horse and I guess I was lucky he stayed sound while I had him and was always a type where he could either have a day off or be ridden no matter how fresh.

My vets certainly appreciate that I am trying to re-teach my current horse his longe skills. They had a lot of difficulty doing a basic exam with him. Of course if I do need a lameness exam, then that means he hurts and is even more likely to be non-compliant (how I got into my mess in the first place), but first we have to be able to longe a bit on a feel good day without a fight.

On really cold days it is also a way both of us can stay more clothed but I can give my horse some mental exercise. You don’t have to make them physically work hard on the longe line. For my horse, we’d be going around forever if I actually wanted to make him tired. But if he just needs some “work” to keep him from being stupid in the snow, then doing some transitions on the longe line is useful.

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A learned behavior in horses can be extremely difficult to change. If a draft horse has learned his strength is his way out when he wishes to “leave” he will simply keep doing it. I have a similar problem with a students horse. His ground work is excellent, moves his hindquarters and shoulders easily and willingly, etc. He has been long-lined and is very willing…until he decides it’s time to go back and see his barn buddy. At that point nothing can stop him. A s and forceful spin and he’s off. I could ski behind him! I truly think taking away the ability to do this with creating a small area as best you can will be your answer. Just working him in the small area will eventually create good behavior and often the bad behavior is forgotten. I don’t believe it’s ever ok for either horse or rider to get hurt. “Causing” the horse to do the right thing instead of forcing works towards creating a better harmony in developing your leadership. Best of luck

He was not trained to lunge and we started him just doing small circles around you which he can do perfectly fine but the second he gets farther away and gains control of his head in any way he’s gone.

He works perfectly under a saddle and I’ve always incorporated circles into his work at a trot and canter and he’s never had a problem. I doubt it is a pain issue but the next time the vet is up I will definitely mention it to her.

I have tried lunging with two lines sadly it seems to have no effect on him despite the fact that he can ground drive easily. The second he is asked for a circle he leaves.

If he does fine under saddle with no lunging honestly i wouldn’t worry about teaching it then. My paint in my profile can go 4 to 5 months no riding. Saddle up get on and he rides like he never had time off. He’s never been taught to lunge no need too.

Had a mare that learned that trick of turning to the outside and running off on the longe line. Irritating. Dangerous.

One time instead of running off, she just turned around and longed herself the other direction, at speed. The line, which was through near bit ring, over poll and clipped to off bit ring, was over her back to now outside bit ring.

Leverage was just right to pull her off her feet. She went ass over teakettle with a bit of a yank.

She never pulled that trick again.

A SMART, GOOD cowboy might be able to set your horse up for a similar lesson, if longeing is really that important to you.

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Those who think lunging is mindless circles, have not had the training to lunge properly :slight_smile: Poor lunging is mindless circles. Proper lunging is, at the very least, excellent mental training - teaching a horse to think before reacting, using it to get his focus (back) on you when he’s upset or “high”, and more. From there it can be incredibly useful physical training.

Some horses learn to bolt because they have been mindlessly lunged to death (aka LTD).

For this horse

He was not trained to lunge and we started him just doing small circles around you which he can do perfectly fine but the second he gets farther away and gains control of his head in any way he’s gone.

Do you go back to a walk when you increase the line length?

How much do you increase the line length?

Do you walk with the horse at that longer line length, so that the circle is bigger? Do you walk a bigger circle with the horse at the shorter line length?

Some horses mentally do not know how to handle being attached to, but farther away from their handler.

When I got my mare OT, lunging was very difficult for her to grasp. She too would bolt when the line got long enough, which was still pretty short. I ended up just teaching her to walk with me at an increasing distance, increasing the line length literally inches at a time, and only every couple of sessions. This was nothing more than leading at a distance that was increasing. Over time those straight lines evolved into just big zig-zags, then half circles with straight lines connecting them.

Can teach horses not to overreact under saddle too. Don’t need to lunge to teach that. I trail ride and there is a lot of stuff horses learn to deal with under saddle. There is no lunge line training a horse how to deal with beaver splashing in a swamp. No lunge line training to teach a horse to deal with logging trucks whizzing by on dirt roads.

Pretty much limited on lunge line training. For getting a trail horse used to things they won’t encounter on a lunge line. Can teach yielding body parts on a lead line same for teaching to give to bit… lateral flexion. My paint horse was taught all this from ground on lead line no lunging required. It all transferred to under saddle work. Even taught him to side pass on lead line and step over with front end.

Getting respectful is about getting them to yield body parts… can all be done on a lead line. And the one rein stop works wonders for getting a spooked horse stopped it has saved me many times. But it’s trained into them before it’s ever used in OH NO situation. Just lightly take up right rein and my horses gives head right now with a light feel…that’s also same for left rein. If you got control of the body parts you got control of the horse.

I never said you can’t do these things under saddle.

But I’d MUCH rather teach a horse to think first, rather than react first, from the relative safety of being on the ground. I never said anything about lunging in the context of desensitization, BUT, you can still teach part of that on a lunge if you want or need to.

The point was that there is GREAT value in teaching a horse to lunge, and using lunging as a tool for his training. That doesn’t mean every horse has to be lunged, but I do think that ALL riders and trainers and vets should know how to lunge a horse. The point was there lunging - done properly - is not mindless work.

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Having a horse who knows how to lunge well is invaluable in teaching beginners how to ride, or having a more advanced student work on more advanced things.

Many, many values in having a horse know how to lunge.

Every horse should lunge. You are so not limited on a lunge line with anything, especially if you use it as a stepping stone to long lining and driving. It gets a horse using his body correctly and working on balance without the weight of a rider.

You need a new trainer. He sounds like he just isn’t getting it, and thinks that when he isn’t in reach he can play. I would use a lunging cavesson, with surcingle and side reins, and a crupper if you have it. He has to understand this is work time, not play time. I would actually keep the side rein to the inside a little tighter so he had to have a bit of bend. Connect your lunge line to the very front ring of the cavesson. Start walking directly beside him around the ring and gradually increase your distance away ( only increase by a few feet at a time). Make sure to keep contact on the lunge line so you can give “half halts” to say pay attention to me. I am the center of your universe. Keep the whip up to go forward and whip down to slow down/stop. Make sure your whip is long enough you can touch him and get his attention. Start small and short walk/trot sessions while using the entire arena. Then start adding controlled circles after you have a good connection going around the arena. You have to break the negative cycle. After a lunging session and a good response to a command on the lunge, ask him to halt and give candy during the session. Keep him looking to you for positive reinforcement. You can’t out muscle him, but you can change his mind to work with you.

I had one who did this as 3 year old. She tried it while leading as well. Knew she could pop a shoulder, drop her head and pull away. It worked with her to have a chain over her nose and have the lunge behind me to “sit on”. I had learned to see her signals pretty early and quickly to anticipate it. She never tried again after that. But it doesn’t sound like the fix for your guy.

Could you set up a temporary round pen with jumps in a corner of an arena? Not ideal if he’ll plow through but could help visually while doing the gradually increasing circles. Might be enough of a deterrent while learning the process to help keep him focused.

I agree that fixing this with this horse is advantageous, both to the horse and to you, as a trainer and horse owner for the future.

Being a drafty cross type, they can learn to use their weight and size to their advantage, to remove themselves from doing something they would rather not do. Once they find success with this, as you have found, you are pretty much at their mercy, powerless to stop them. The danger is that they may apply this theory to other things that you may ask of him, at some later point. So that is why it is advantageous to try to fix this, for him.

The key is to be able to tip his head towards you, when he goes to straighten himself and lunge away from you when he goes to bolt. You need a tool that will give you that power, something he can not argue with. The answer is a lunging cavesson of some sort, with the line coming off the top of his nose. A particularly effective type of tool for this is an iron halter. The nose piece is solid steel oval, which sits loosely on the horse’s nose UNLESS the horse goes to turn his head away from you, preliminary to bolting away from you. When that happens, the oval twists on his nose, and is uncomfortable for him. He immediately nixes doing this, and bends back towards you, where the pressure is immediately released. You only ask for a little bit of lunging, maybe only walk and jog at first. You set yourself up for success, and reward him for work well done. You don’t ask for a lot of lunging, only a few minutes, and stop before he gets tired, or does anything he shouldn’t. When he becomes more comfortable with cooperating with you, and accepts your appreciation of that, then you may try a canter. By then, he will hopefully understand that bolting is simply not something he can successfully consider, and you can reward him again for work successfully done.

It is hard to find an iron halter that is of a size that will fit a large headed horse. But you may be able to get one built for you, by someone with a forge. The only current source I have seen is a supply called “Dressage Extensions”, where the device is called a “Correction Halter”, or something like that. And in the picture, it is fitted upside down, with the hole for the line coming off the bottom, not the top. Don’t fit it like it is in the picture, turn it around so that the line comes off the bridge of the nose. But it only comes in one size, and since I own one, I can tell you it is not a very large size. It fits most normal sized TB type heads, but may be too small for a large drafty type or warmblood type head, because it is not supposed to fit tight. An iron halter is a very old tool, they have been around for a long time. In the wrong hands, with an emotional and angry handler, they can be quite severe. In educated hands, they are effective to teach the spoiled or ruined horse a specific lesson. Not many horses need to use one, or need to use it for longer than a few weeks, but if you have one of these horses, the tool is a good one.

Good luck!

I would feel very differently and offer different advice IF this horse was…

A. Not (at least)13-14 years old.

B Had not spent most of a decade as an Amish work horse-they dont lunge, they put them to work. Harness with a big old quiet horse if they are fractious.

C. Spent the last THREE years bolting out of the circle

And IF…

D. OP had a proper place to lunge so he couldn’t go anywhere.

Given these facts, especially D, I think this is one of those situations where trying to fix this is going to be beating your head against the wall and it is more likely the horse or OP will get hurt then this miraculously fixes itself. And the horse is rideable without it.

I wonder about the instructor. Most would not ever have a client putting a horse in a situation where client really has no control and no proper place to lunge. Perhaps there’s another side here, maybe instructor does not encourage this. If they do that would become E on my list of obstacles in teaching this old horse to lunge.

All mine lunge. In sidereins if fresh, just a line and mostly with voice and body commands if not, I think it’s an invaluable tool. BUT it’s not the be all end all for all horses, especially if they are older, don’t need it, there’s no place to do it and no experienced handler to teach it. No chance here.

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Properly adjusted side reins will make it fa more difficult for him to drop a shoulder and turn away, and aloso prevent him from throwin his head up and leaving. If you use them do not clip them until ready to start, the ideal length or a learning horse is so that they are just barely engaged when he is standing at halt, . Clip the outside first, and then the inside, and be ready to send forward immediately.

Longing is an art, and many find it difficult to handle the longe line, and a whip.

Another caveat- do not allow your arm to straighten turn your body so that your R shoulder is to him when the longe line is in your L hand-keep your elbow bent, reverse poition for the R rein.