I'm getting ripped off on my lease, right?

[RR_John_885]

A few months ago I leased a 25 year old thoroughbred from my trainer at one of the nicest hunter/jumper barns in my area (probably the nicest). Details of the lease are as follows:

• 4 month lease (Jan - April), no upfront lease fee
• $1000 board
• $900 lessons (3x week @ $75/lesson)
• $40 month in supplements
• $125 unlimited use of Bemer blanket (I did not agree to this when we negotiated the lease…the first I heard about this charge was when it showed up on my first month’s invoice)
• $250 for unlimited treadmill/theraplate (ditto re: not being informed about this charge until I saw the invoice)
• Horse has no apparent performance limitations aside from the fact that he doesn’t do flying lead changes

I agreed to pay vet/farrier as well. I’ve leased other horses in the past and this was standard so I didn’t question it initially.

Almost from the beginning I started getting asked to pay for a lot of things that weren’t disclosed when I was originally negotiating the lease. Details are as follows:

• $800 hock injections (needed every 6 months)
• $500 Adequan injections (needed every 6 months)
• $225 Dental checkup (annual, I’m assuming)
• $40 in dewormer (needed every 6 months)
• $25 for a fly mask

I started getting suspicious pretty early on given the volume/amount of all of the above medical bills, but there were a couple of things that really got me thinking I was getting taken for a ride that happened a couple months in:

• My trainer charged me $275 to have my horse clipped. I looked at getting a prior horse I leased clipped last year and the cost for a professional to do it was close to half of that. I know for a fact that my trainer had one of the working boarders at the barn do the clipping. It wasn’t professionally done.
• The big thing was the saddle I bought. My trainer suggested I purchase one (I am a male and the saddles available at the barn for my horse are smaller). I was hesitant because I planned on leasing horses for the foreseeable future vs. buying, but my trainer told me that I could get a custom saddle made that would be suitable for use on future lease horses…“you’ll be able to use this saddle for the rest of your riding career” were the exact words my trainer used. Since this happened before all of medical expenditures listed above came to my attention, I wasn’t yet suspicious and made the purchase based on my trainer’s recommendation. I paid ~$9k for a custom saddle…I am a “buy once, cry once” kind of person and since I was told that I’d be able to use it going forward I went with the most expensive options available.

I’ve since learned that I was probably misled about the potential for the saddle to be used on multiple horses. My trainer is a rep for the saddle company (CWD), so they almost certainly received some sort of compensation for the sale. I understand that it’s nobody’s fault but my own that I didn’t do my due diligence beforehand, but I trusted my trainer to tell me the truth when I was informed that I could use this saddle on other horses. I never would have bought it had I been told otherwise.

I’m getting ripped off, right? I suspect I know the answer but I want to make extra sure before I end my relationship with this trainer because despite all the BS with the lack of transparency on expected expenditures, I have progressed a lot as a rider in their program. I did not pay the Bemer/treadmill charges listed above in my board check this month that I paid today (because I never agreed to them) so anticipate this will kick off the conversation and I want to be prepared.

[Lizrd]

I don’t know that I’d file this under “getting ripped off” because the charges sound reasonable. However, you are probably being taken advantage of if none of this was spelled out in your lease agreement. Welcome to the horse world… where everything is more complicated and less transparent than in all other business ventures. If your riding is improving you may elect to stay there but a crucial conversation with your trainer, and establishing, or re-establishing, your boundaries and expectations is certainly warranted. People on this discussion board will provide plenty of advice and suggestions for you - your post includes a lot of relevant information. Through it all, remember your love of horses and repeat to yourself regularly, “I am the customer. I am the customer.” Many trainers get the relationships twisted in this sport and think WE are there to serve THEM. And if you are in the position to purchase a $9k saddle some trainers will see you coming from a mile away and will take every advantage of you that they can. I always plead a very tight budget and a frugal approach, whether that is accurate or not. It prevents money hungry “professionals” from trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

Also, the horse world is very small, so you may want to remove or change your geographical location so that you are a bit more anonymous. You might be surprised who all reads COTH discussion boards and how quickly word travels.

[NaturallyHappy]

Many trainers in my area recommend CWD saddles. I’d bet money most of their clients don’t realize CWD gives those trainers kick-backs.

With respect to the clipping, it’s a miserable job. I clip better than many professionals in my area and charge the same. To me, the fact that your horse was clipped by a non-professional clipper doesn’t really matter.

I’m sure many people will give you great advice going forward. I do think your trainer is taking advantage of you financially because you don’t know what you don’t know yet.

[NoSuchPerson]

Yep. You’re getting ripped off. Especially since you’ve got a 4 month lease. Given the non-typical extremely short-term nature of the lease, you’re being hit with a lot of completely unreasonable requests to pay for stuff.

And you’re getting ripped off on the saddle, too, IMO.

There are lots of nice barns in your area (I saw your location before you removed it). You can do a lot better.

[dmveventer]

I’m assuming this is a full lease. I don’t think you’re getting ripped off, this all sounds pretty standard for a nice show barn. Whether that type of program is a good fit for your needs is a different question but kind of irrelevant at this point. You should check your contracts to see what you agreed to exactly, but honestly the time to ask about the “extra” fees was the first time they showed up on your invoice. If you’ve been paying them so far you don’t really have a case for refusing to pay now.

Injections, dewormer, and dental are all standard maintenance costs. You agreed to pay vet and farrier costs, that’s what these are. The Bemer and treadmill services are almost certainly baked into the boarding agreement and not unusual for a fancy show program, and you likely signed something to that effect in your board or lease contract.

The custom saddle and trainer as brand rep are also a pretty common story in these barns, sometimes it’s optional and sometimes they expect you to get with the program or leave. There’s also typically a clause covering tack in the lease, either that you’ll use the horse’s specific saddle or get one that fits appropriately, so worth checking your contract. It’s unfortunate if they gave you bad advice but ultimately the purchase was on you. What made you change your mind on using it on other horses? Not every saddle will fit every horse but depending on what configuration you got it may not be as bad as you think.

@RR_John_885

I did not pay the Bemer/treadmill charges listed above in my board check this month that I paid today (because I never agreed to them) so anticipate this will kick off the conversation and I want to be prepared.

This is almost certainly going to get you kicked out and probably blacklisted with other barns in the area. I would be 100% sure that’s what you want before you go through with this. Again, if you’ve been paying these fees the whole time and are only now saying it’s an issue you really don’t have a basis to push back. Your lease is almost over, if you want to find a different type of program going forward just pay your last month, move on, and consider it a lesson learned in reading contracts carefully before you sign.

[Renn_aissance]

I don’t know that I’d say “ripped off.” I might say “taken advantage of.” It depends on details we aren’t (and don’t need to be) privy to and at the end of the day it comes down to “what does the contract say?”

This is a “care lease” (the horse’s room, board, and well-being are paid for by the lessee, but no additional lease fee is charged.) We don’t know fair market value for the horse. Yes, he’s a 25-year-old TB who doesn’t have a swap and we can draw some assumptions from that, but a 25-year-old TB at the nicest facility in the area with a trainer who has really helped the OP progress in his riding might be the 2’6” champion of the state who lands his leads and/or a sainted schoolie who would justify a lease fee on the open market. Since the OP lives in an area where hock injections are $800, it doesn’t read to me like the trainer is marking up the board to implicitly include an additional lease fee, either.

It would be interesting to know whether the standard board contract at the farm includes use of the therapy tools at this additional rate (interesting but also none of our business.) Again extrapolating from the vet and dental costs, it seems plausible that the base rate for board is kept “low” with these additional fees tacked on as separate line items that are actually subsidizing the basic board expenses. Now, should those have been disclosed to a new client and included in the contract? Absolutely.

Where I’m differentiating “ripoff” from “being taken advantage of” is that I don’t think we have enough information to know if the OP is spending more money than market rate for his area. It does seem that there was an opportunity for a conversation when reviewing the details of this arrangement, including the overview of the horse’s basic physical maintenance needs and the times these are coming due so there was clarity on what vet expenses could be expected, as well as details of the standard boarding arrangement (which might well include the deworming and fly mask.) If neither party initiated this conversation then both are at fault. If the OP tried and the charges were truly assessed without any prior warning or documentation in the contract then that’s another story.

If you want to stay at this barn, OP, then you need to sit down with the trainer or manager and get clarity on their pricing and the details of your contract, including fees that may be assessed at certain points of the year as “required” “a la carte” (like additional cost for medical supplies or basic equipment like a fly mask or replacement halter which the barn or owner may provide.) And every single time a service is mentioned, you need to ask “what does that cost and is it included in my lease fee?”

[Clemfandango]

While I do think paying for some of the maintenance is ok, it’s weird they would charge you the full cost of it ( of both the adequan and joint injections) if you’re only leasing for 4 months.

The saddle -yes that was taking advantage of…I’m sorry that happened to you.

But I think what really is not cool is leasing out a 25 year old to teach a new rider jumping. I know it’s good to keep them in work, but sounds like this sweet horse could use an easier job. I

Just makes me a bit sad- and makes me suspect they are leasing him out so they can make money with you leasing/ lessoning on him, instead of thinking what’s better for the horse. At 25 he definitely deserves it.

[gradytb]

If this is what people are getting charged to lease a 25-year old horse and lessons for 4 months—dang. You could buy property and have your horse at home for less. That sounds insane.

[Midge]

The things you were asked to pay for that were originally not disclosed should not be the responsibility of someone on a four month lease. The most you should be asked to pay for those items is half.

[poltroon]

I will go also with “taken advantage of.” Definitely on the saddle, that is a lot to spend on a saddle for a 4 month lease horse … and will the saddle even get to you before the lease is up? Hopefully it will work for other horses, but as you’ve learned, maybe or maybe not. I don’t think the trainer was advising you fairly or appropriately, and you should absolutely have known before you did the deal that they get a cut.

A care lease is a care lease. The basic charges that you expected for board and lessons and supplement are certainly in line. The extra charges that weren’t disclosed, it’s fair to have a conversation about them, but if they are standard for your barn and are what the owner expects for the horse, not necessarily… a ripoff. Other than… I am not certain they are actually beneficial to the horse. But if this is the trainer’s standard program or the owner’s expectation, it should have been part of the original negotiation.

If you were my 4 month duration lessee I wouldn’t make you pay for the annual dental and I probably would have split the hock injections and adequan. But, it would depend a little on my negotiation position, how lucky I felt to get a solid lessee versus not.

I learned to do my own clipping very early on because it costs way too much. $275 seems quite high to me. It’s a couple hours of someone’s time and shouldn’t be billed at $100+/hr.

Very fair and appropriate to set boundaries that you expect costs to be disclosed up front and not to be hit with surprise bills.

If you’ve progressed as a rider, at least that part is good. But I don’t love having a training relationship with anyone who has shown that I cannot trust them to look out for my best interests. A short term program of lessons at arms length is one thing, but over the longer term, not a great situation to be in.

[EmilyM]

To me these are all pretty normal things to pay for. If you lease a horse, you assume all the bill as if you own it. If you are riding regularly and don’t have a saddle, you do need one. You don’t need a 9k saddle. Also if the horse needs maintenance every 6 months you should only be required to do it if it falls in your lease period. I mean a 25 year old horse is going to need maintenance.

I think the problem here is more about not asking all the right questions before assuming the lease. Perhaps because you were not experienced in these matters? Unfortunately lessons are often learned the hard way.

[GraceLikeRain]

$1,000 board and $800 hock injections for a top barn and good vet is insanely cheap.

The top barns in my area start closer to double that with mandatory training coming out to another $2k and I just paid $1,500 for my backyard pasture puff to get her hocks done.

You should have asked up front what upcoming annual maintenance was due for this horse. I agree it sucks to get hit with vet bills. I would expect a horse of this age to have a fair amount of maintenance. Hocks and adequan is every 6 months so depending on the cycle it makes sense you would have those during a 4 month lease.

Ponies are expensive.

[luvmyhackney]

Based on those prices and at a top, well run barn, you aren’t being taking advantage of.

The saddle is on the edge of crossing the line. You could/should have pushed back then.

The other charges are what I would expect for a 25 y/o horse who is probably a saint and still sound enough to jump, means the care must be pretty good. The yearly stuff has to get done, just so happens you are leasing horse and foot the bill. You agreed to pay vet and farrier.

[fivestrideline]

The saddle: you were ABSOLUTELY taken advantage of. There’s no guarantee any saddle will fit the next horse (and usually they don’t). It absolutely sounds like your trainer misled you on the kickbacks. I’d say they misled you on the potential fitting as well. You probably needed your own saddle, that I won’t deny. What you didn’t need was a $9k saddle with a trainer kickback.

As to the rest, I also think you’re being taken advantage of as a client with means but perhaps less education - this is NOT to disparage you. This is education you unfortunately tend to get by learning the hard way… you SHOULD be able to trust your hired pros to give you all the facts and be on YOUR side. That’s just not always what happens.

On one hand, at signing you should have been notified of upcoming vet maintenance outside of shots and teeth IMO. On the other hand, these are normal costs that usually land around spring shots so… not necessarily inappropriate to pass those on to the lease client but I’d be a bit miffed to find out afterwards with no notice. This really sounds like a case of “you don’t know what to ask when you don’t know what to ask”… but as your hired pro, the trainer should have informed you.

If the trainer owns this horse, I’m definitely more ticked. If this horse is owned by a client, less so.

[mika0116]

wow - I think we have a lot of DIY / more experienced / been around as adults pre 2010 folks here bc those costs are totally on par / cheap

Major coastal metro area 30-something here – thats a good deal for a high-end barn! And almost all high end barns have a price list - I’d ask for one and compare with other boarding clients in full or half training as well as with other leasees.

Is the TB a 25 year old older show horse with a good brain and a good fit for you or a forgotten / broken OTTB with major holes in his training / behavior? If the former - good deal - I don’t think a good TB should be any cheaper than the equivalent WB unless you’re doing Big Time Hunters at Rated Shows. Is this a care lease with half/full training - the numbers check out to be exactly that.

the saddle stuff is not uncommon but annoying - my trainers don’t care what I ride in as long as it works for me and said horse, but my most recent trainers did not require their clients to ride in their sponsors, but previous ones did if you were actively showing A shows and didn’t already own a great fitting saddle.

[Nikki]

Being taken advantage of. My trainer would NEVER do this kind of shit to anyone in his barn. He also is sponsored by CWD, but would never push a saddle on a client. It should be your choice what you feel the best saddle for you.

The prices you are paying for vet fees is very high. Dental should be $125, Wormer is $12. I don’t do joint injections cause my horse doesn’t need them. I use my trainer’s Bemer and he doesn’t charge me.

[NoSuchPerson]

@mika0116

wow - I think we have a lot of DIY / more experienced / been around as adults pre 2010 folks here bc those costs are totally on par / cheap

You, and some others, immediately jump to the conclusion that I, and some others, are objecting to the actual dollar amounts reported by the OP. Your assumption is incorrect. The problems, IMO, are not with the amounts, but rather:

1. That a person with a 4 month lease - a 4 month lease - is being billed in full for semi-annual and annual vet costs. Yeah, that’s a great deal for the owner, isn’t it? I’ll just lease my horse for a few months every year during the time when all the annual and semi-annual vet work comes due and let that poor sap leasing my horse take care of all my expensive vet work.

2. The lessee is being billed for things that he/she was never informed about in advance and never approved in advance.

3. The whole saddle deal is just wrong on every level.

This is not the way an honest trainer deals with his/her clients.

[RR_John_885]

The Bemer and treadmill services are almost certainly baked into the boarding agreement and not unusual for a fancy show program, and you likely signed something to that effect in your board or lease contract

They’re not mentioned anywhere in the board agreement or the lease contract. I assumed they were part of the board agreement initially (before I got suspicious…I trusted my trainer) which is why I paid them before this month. Certainly I should have questioned it initially and that’s 100% on me, but in no way did I ever sign anything agreeing to pay it.

This is almost certainly going to get you kicked out and probably blacklisted with other barns in the area. I would be 100% sure that’s what you want before you go through with this. Again, if you’ve been paying these fees the whole time and are only now saying it’s an issue you really don’t have a basis to push back.

Since they aren’t part of the board agreement and I wasn’t informed about them beforehand, functionally I have been overpaying on my lease up until this month. As far as I can tell, then, I’d be well within my rights to request a refund on those items/a credit on future bills. Given how I’ve been treated, though, I can guess how well that would go. I’d rather just be done with these people.

If refusing to pay a fee that I never agreed to (in writing or otherwise) and wasn’t informed about until it showed up on the bill gets me kicked out and blacklisted, then I guess that’s just something I’ll have to deal with.

It’s unfortunate if they gave you bad advice but ultimately the purchase was on you.

I agree and I take 100% accountability for the fact that I didn’t do my due diligence beforehand. That doesn’t mean, though, that my trainer had to mislead me.

[RR_John_885]

@fivestrideline

If the trainer owns this horse, I’m definitely more ticked.

My trainer owns the horse. I agree with you and others that I should have asked for more clarity on upcoming vet costs, and I take 100% accountability for that. That said, my trainer knew that I was inexperienced and if the roles were reversed I would have thought it only fair to inform my lessee of upcoming vet bills.

[Bristol_Bay]

I’m going to disagree regarding the saddle.

A new custom CWD costs $9000 (maybe less depending on the leather) and agree there are probably no school saddles that fit you. It sounds like you ordered a saddle with pro panels.

A CWD with pro panels will fit a lot of horses with appropriate padding. At my barn, every horse has a pad. The trainer and many of us have saddles with pro panels, and ride multiple horses in our own saddles. So that would be a good choice for you going forward.

Personally, I think you might have been able to find a used saddle that would work for you, but if you need something like a 19” saddle with 4L flaps, you wouldn’t find that used.

It’s totally normal for trainers to be sponsored by a saddle brand and to convince new clients that they need to trade in their Voltaire for a Butet, or what have you. I don’t approve of this practice, but that’s how the upper echelons of the H/J world work and why I don’t belong in it.