I'm getting ripped off on my lease, right?

(quoting to keep most of the costs easy to see)

I think there is a constant disconnect between trainers and clients (including some people on this board) when it comes to costs and profit.

This horse is owned by trainer and is a lesson horse. So there are some given costs:
-board (as in feed/keep/lead to and from stall, etc) - all of this is set in a horse being a horse.
-maintenance due to being a lesson horse, this includes clipping, injections, adequan, flymask, etc.

So, let’s do the math - $800 (hock injections)+$500 (adequan)+$40 (wormer)=$1340*2=$2680

$225 (dental)+$25 (flymask)+$275 (clipping) = $250

$2930 annual fee is $244.17 monthly fee.
Other monthly fees- $40 supplements, $125 Bemer blanket, $250 Treadmill=

Total additional monthly - $414, add in the pro-rated annual ($244.17)=$658.17

What this horse is bringing in monthly for this leas=$1000+$900+$658.17=2558.17

At $75/lesson, horse would have to do 34 lessons per month to equal the cost.

Now, it may be true that the horse works 6 days a week and does 2 lessons a day on a few of those days. All that maintenance may also be needed. The horse is currently being ridden a total of 5 days a week. On top of that, the trainer is free to teach 22 lessons elsewhere (34 lessons-12 lesson lessee takes) so she is making $1650 elsewhere.

The general argument is she has to (or pay someone to) do all the maintenance so how is she making the extra profit? Well, she’s doing all that maintenance whether or not the individual is leasing the horse so that time is given either way. The time that changes is her spending the additional 22 hours teaching on THAT horse to make the money that THAT horse costs.

The argument is usually “they don’t make that much money” and/or “but the work you have to do for X,Y.Z!” - depending on the scenario, that isn’t necessarily the case.

Now, if the horse was getting maintenance, getting clipped, etc because he’s been pulled out of a field to get leased, then that is a different discussion re: profit - but the conversation needs to happen before the work is done.

As “horse owner” leasee should have a say in maintenance issues and costs. Just like my chiropractor doesn’t just show up, adjust my horse and send me a bill, neither should the trainer just do something, charge the “horse owner” and not at least talk to him about it. If something like hock injections were non-negotiable (like they MUST be done), then the cost should be told up front. Bemer blanket, treadmill, clipping - they should all be optional, in my opinion.

In a similar vein, I remember a construction company owner “working off” to buy a particular horse for his daughter and board with the trainer by leveling the ground where the indoor was going (by levelling, I mean he brought dirt from elsewhere, built up one side about 6 ft and levelled off the entire um…200ftX300ft). Then trainer was adding costs and making daughter “work off board”. The father was starting to get disgruntled - in his view trainer underestimated his worth and overestimated her/the horse’s/board’s worth. He had horses at home as well, but wanted the show horse where an indoor was - he was well aware of show costs (he also trailered horse to shows with his truck/trailer so that was not an additional cost).

Anyway…so yes, OP had the wool pulled over his eyes but I see it all the time. Trainers are not good business people and tend to have overinflated sense’s of worth, in my opinion.

The owner where I keep my horse had fecals done on all the horses. She wanted to do mine at the same time so had it done without asking me…did not even tell me how much said she wasn’t expecting me to pay since she wanted it done. Supplements she gives all the horses do not cost me anything. The joint supplement that just my and my horse and her older horse get - she told me I would have to pay for half before I agreed to purchase. THAT’s how things should work!

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Every lease I’ve been involved with:

*non perishables are provided for the horse. And stay with the horse. Certainly wouldn’t expect a $400 blanket to be footed by the person leasing and then expect them to drag home a smelly used blanket to store at home for a hypothetical future horse. Same for any boots or equipment.

*Lots of people get cute and want to buy a matching halter, pad, wraps…sure, but not expected. Keep them or send them with the horse.

*Consumables like fly spray are considered part of board. You might not get the fancy brand you like and if you’re picky you supply your own. Feed and supps are negotiated into board BEFORE the lease. You really don’t want the uneducated public having a lot of opinions about supplements. It’s hard enough arguing with professionals.

At the end of the day, it’s easier to make a baseline all-in price that is fair to everyone than haggle over extras and add-ons SURPRISE!. This creates sore feelings as the OPis experiencing and is bad business.

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Just quoting here as the earlier comments really confused me. I have never bought tack/equipment and left it at the place I left. At a previous location, I used my own, extra bridle when riding the trainer’s horses - mostly so I always had a bridle, wasn’t waiting for someone to finish riding, etc. I took it with me - why would I leave it?

Fly spray - I did buy my own at the same place but the flyspray I bought (can’t think of the name, silver bottle, concentrate) didn’t cost much and I had a few fly spray bottles. It made me happy to fly spray the horses when I fed them, when I rode, randomly when getting one out of the field…and yep, took it all with me.

Bought a figure eight addition to my bridle for a specific horse I was leasing and guess where it is now…that’s right, in my house even though I haven’t used it since.

I mean, leave it if you want but if I paid $25 for a flymask, I sure am taking it with me!

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The point was, you’re free to keep or send it with the horse, because you bought it, but you weren’t obligated. A ton of stuff gets left with horses by people leasing who don’t turn into full time horse owners and don’t like storing horsey-smelling stuff. I’m thinking parents whose kids are off at college and didn’t “stick”.

And that’s what’s galling about a lot of the comments about how the horse needs XYZ. Trainers are smart and aren’t just buying stuff ala carte at full price, the way a beginner leasing is. They’re not paying $25 for a fly mask, for example. They’re buying them at bulk at end of season sales.

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To be clear, I just quoted you as agreement, since some earlier posts seem to think it standard to buy something for a lease horse (whether you buy it yourself or are invoiced for it) and leaving it with the horse - just odd to assume someone would do that.

In my case, I didn’t own the horse, and it would have felt a bit like “nickel and diming” if I’d taken say, a bottle of fly spray with me, or a hoof pick. The stirrup leathers and stirrups I could have taken with me, but since I had put additional holes into the original leathers (with the owner’s permission, she was seven inches taller than me), I left them with her in compensation. They were nicer than what she had, though–the lease didn’t end on great terms, that’s why I remember it!

However, a whole-ass bridle or a saddle? That’s definitely going with the person leasing the horse.

The fly mask in and of itself is small, but I can definitely see it being part of a sense that the owner is like, “goody, time for me to go shopping for horsey, now it’s not on my dime.”

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I understand the stirrup leathers - similar to replacing used equipment, especially since you put holes in the leathers. I do not the above that I quoted - how is it nickel and diming to take equipment that you bought for your use?

If you are not sure if you are going to ride again at the end of the lease, then I can understanding leaving tack and/or equipment. But like, if you buy a hoof pick that you like and leave it and the next horse doesn’t have a hoof pick that you like, you have to buy another one.

For example, I like the smaller curries - ones for kids - they fit my hand better. If I left it everyone place/lease I left, I would be on at least my 10th by now instead of my first or second. No one uses that curry. So why would I keep spending money on the same thing? But then, I also bought my first grooming kit when I was taking lessons WAY back when I was a kid and still have that same kit (and the same curry).

Maybe it’s just not for me to understand…

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Because those items were so small, I thought it would be cheap to take them with me, but you’re right, I probably should have! (And I agree with you on the curry combs, as someone with tiny hands who needs XXS gloves!) I guess (although I was paying to lease), whenever I have, it was always drilled into me how grateful I should be, just to be able to be lease a horse at all, which made me feel bad.

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Is there an assumption that this is a high end made horse? I wouldn’t think a 25 year old lesson horse without a lead change falls in that category.

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Ahh gotcha and yes agree!

Perhaps. I guess it’s personal history. Leasing a 20 something made hunter for years. He had an auto change. You just weighted an outside stirrup to get. Care lease. I paid for everything. All maintenance. Worth every penny. I guess I missed the no change. Sorry

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You leased him for years. Of course you paid all the maintenance.

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Okay :+1: it continued for years. It started off as a care lease that. Continued because it worked so well.

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Being able to ride a 25 year old horse and not having to buy it is a deal. The horse worked for the time it was needed. Being able to move on to another low or mid level horse without having to worry about selling the last one or keeping it until it dies, is a pretty good deal, even if you have to buy fly mask.

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Oh I don’t think a care lease on this house is a bad thing. I think the surprise charges are the bad thing.

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I don’t think anyone’s complaining about having to buy a fly mask.

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I would never pay that much for a lease horse. Thats insane. For that amount you can buy your own horse and PR for the care.

Then be stuck with it when it goes lame, needs to retire, etc.

Leasing and being able to walk away if you don’t like the ride is invaluable.

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I’m a bit late to the party on this one, but for anything that is “every 6 months” I would recommend asking the trainer to prorate it, so for the $800 injection every 6 months, you would be obligated to pay $533 for your 4 months of care. Same with any other services. Your trainer should have negotiated that into your contract. If not, then you will definitely need to have the conversation.

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OP, I’ve “fired” coaches or even vets for less outrageous unauthorised bills than what you’ve paid, but then again I’m a terrible client because I refuse to pay more than necessary and I DIY a lot. What has worked for me over time and I keep coming back to is basically a boarding facility where you’re free to bring your own coach and do most of the car outside of turnout, feeding, blanketing and mucking on your own terms. I’d tolerate as much as a barn-wide farrier/vet assuming they are reasonable people. But FWIW I’ve once had to change vets too because the clinic was bought out by private equity and you can imagine how that affected both their rate card as well as the list of treatments they deemed necessary. So as always - stay vigilant and follow the incentives. As a result, for a monthly all in budget less than yours I’m able to keep two horses, not just one in a decent HCOL area boarding facility. To me that is frankly a great trade-off.

Yes, you end up “managing” a lot more, but you also learn so much and none of it is rocket science. One thing I don’t skimp on is coaching - it runs 3 figs per lesson but I bring them in as necessary. Sometimes they have opinions on what might help a certain horse maintenance wise but I’m also more inclined to trust them because they’re just sharing their professional opinion and it’s take it or leave it. When they’ve come to evaluate a horse for me locally they charge the same lesson fees and they don’t even care how much the horse costs. So in the end the cheaper option in terms of boarding/coaching very well may end up far more expensive once you consider all the commissions and extras you pay. Of course this DIY set up may not be an option for a less advanced rider but the sooner you can get independent and substitute quantity for quality the better.

I’ve experimented with bodywork, bemer etc. and if I’m completely honest I’ve not noticed any significant difference in their way of going so, again, I refuse to pay and waste my time and money at least for the current two that I own. I’m always open to trying new things and there are things that have made a big difference and saddle fitter is one of them. Just looking around most “pros” do the same - weigh the cost of something vs. the benefit and piece together a maintenance routine that delivers the best bang for buck. FYI for my horses which are admittedly much younger that routine is extremely minimal or as most would describe “no maintenance”.

In fact, I’d be surprised to see that your coach actually religiously used a theraplate/bemer/adequan on your oldie and paid these things out of pocket prior to the lease. At 25 y.o. and with no lead change the cost is almost guaranteed to offset any monetary benefit of keeping the horse jumping sound. I also think it’s not very fair to the horse even with the best care in the world.

But truth be told if you want to board at the “right facilities” or go to the “right shows” it appears to me as part of the price. But from what I’ve seen this stuff just has no limits! Next you know for you to reach “your goals” you need a 5 fig lease and/or 6 fig purchase, bought from of course a friend of a coach / contact in Europe etc. That horse will need to be tuned up, need regular maintenance treatments (conveniently administered by your coach or their osteopath) and so on.

Don’t even get me started on tack “you need”.

I liked the analogy of a broker vs. a fiduciary, but to take it even further… It sounds like you are with a very expensive but not independent wealth advisor that not only charges you a management fee but also possibly pads it by getting commsions from the mutual funds she sells and other fees. You can absolutely do it cheaper - get someone to rebalance your portfolio every once in a while you have all your portfolio in an index fund. But for you to be able to do that it takes a lot of self initiative, ability to stomach some risk and early mistakes, as well as dedication to learning.

FWIW I think H/J culture is the worst in terms of this learned dependence on programs and professionals. If you are into jumping but are looking for value for money I recommend you look into eventing barns - they seem a lot more scrappy, independent and (no offense) better horsemen overall.

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