I'm getting ripped off on my lease, right?

[RR_John_885]

@GreyDes

So, here’s the benefit of doubt scenario. Your trainer has a senior citizen that is still up to doing high quality lessons. He/she can get the horse off their books for four months. You may have got the board at cost with the thought that they’d also pass through the veterinary maintenance during those four months and it would more or less balance out.

It’s certainly possible, but even then I would argue that that should have been explained to me. At the very least, if this was in fact the scenario then there should have been a conversation upfront about upcoming maintenance costs and why I was expected to pay full annual costs (e.g. dental) when the lease duration was less than 12 months. My trainer knew this was my first experience with a full lease and it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth that the first I heard about most of these costs were when I was billed for them/after I’d signed the contract.

As I’ve said in prior responses, I take 100% accountability for my ignorance and lack of due diligence. I should have asked what all was upcoming beforehand/asked for supporting documentation. I paid all of the vet expenses when asked (and without complaint) because that’s what I agreed to do when I signed the contract. My trainer could have sued me otherwise. That said, I’m still very unhappy about the $400 in additional fees I was billed for and were never discussed, and I still feel justified in feeling like I was taken advantage of by the lack of disclosure on what I would be expected to pay during the lease duration.

Since you’ve already said you’re planning to another lease with this trainer

That was the plan initially (before I got suspicious of all I was being asked to pay) but not anymore. I made my last payment on this lease this weekend, and I’ll be moving on after this month.

[beowulf]

This is a 25 y/o horse. Those saying that is cheap might not be factoring that in. The market of people leasing a 25 y/o horse is small. If this was a top show hunter, that would be different and I’d agree it borders on cheap for HJ clientele.

I’d say you’re getting fleeced - at the very least, your trainer is taking advantage of your good will and relative naivety to the sport. Since you don’t know, she can set the goal posts and tell you it’s normal.

Is this horse owned by your trainer? If so she’s using you to keep his maintenance going. All of these things sound like reasonable maintenance for a 25 y/o horse, but what doesn’t sound reasonable to me is you paying for it on a 4 month lease.

Typically in lease / show situations, maintenance is laid out on the table before agreeing to the lease. Some leases pay for it all. Others split half vet costs with owner. Depends on the barn and contract.

Since your trainer didn’t sit you down and explain all of this to you beforehand, I’m guessing it was deliberate. HJ Trainers have that reputation for a reason. It’s time to find a different barn that isn’t going to take advantage of you being new to the sport and not knowing better.

Return the CWD. It’s not going to fit anyway.

[GreyDes]

Good to hear you be made a decision and sounds like you’ve got some good watch outs for your next lease!

[Midge]

@red_mares

Yes, this 4 four month lease got hit with the annual bills. However, it’s not unreasonable to expect this lease to extend the lease for another term or two. When does the 'paying for the maintenance of the horse" kick in? 1st term? 2nd term? 3rd term?

It should be prorated.

[RR_John_885]

@beowulf

Typically in lease / show situations, maintenance is laid out on the table before agreeing to the lease. Some leases pay for it all. Others split half vet costs with owner. Depends on the barn and contract.

Since your trainer didn’t sit you down and explain all of this to you beforehand, I’m guessing it was deliberate. HJ Trainers have that reputation for a reason. It’s time to find a different barn that isn’t going to take advantage of you being new to the sport and not knowing better.

This I have learned. Rest assured that I feel pretty stupid…I’ve been kicking myself from the moment I found out how badly I’d been taken. This month is the last one on my lease and I won’t be doing business with them going forward. The lack of due diligence is 100% on me and I take total responsibility for that mistake, but that didn’t mean that my trainer was justified in taking advantage of my inexperience.

Return the CWD. It’s not going to fit anyway.

Well, it’s not returnable by contract with the company. Best I can do is sell it at a loss. I’m also getting differing opinions about how suitable it will be for other horses in the future…I bought a saddle with pro panels and I’m hearing from other posters that maybe what my trainer told me initially wasn’t necessarily an intentional mistruth and I will be able to use it on other horses. At any rate I’m going to get through the end of the last month of this lease before I decide what to do with it.

[findeight]

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction. You are always welcome on here, just ask and pick out the advice that suits your needs best, file the rest for future reference and don’t take anything personally. Most who have responded here did so because they made the same mistakes and the advice is not from a superior position, just a fellow sufferer trying to help others avoid the same mistakes.

Feel free to run any questions by us.

[Bristol_Bay]

@Nikki

pay $125 for full floating with sedation by my vet. My guy gets bit seats. He also has to get additional work due to a pulled tooth.

I just paid $365, and that was a split call fee.

[Fiesta01]

@RR_John_885

I made my last payment on this lease this weekend, and I’ll be moving on after this month.

Good to hear. I personally would not have stayed with this trainer.

[beowulf]

@RR_John_885

Rest assured that I feel pretty stupid…

Horse people have been pulling the wool over people’s eyes for centuries. Don’t feel stupid. You couldn’t possibly have known. The term “horse trader” in the derogatory sense came about honestly.

Push back on it “not being returnable”. CWD is awful, but there is precedence for them taking back saddles when unhappy customers make a big enough stink.

When you have some time, pull aside a beer or a wine, some crackers, and search CWD on COTH. You’re in for a fun ride.

Welcome to COTH, btw. Like Findeight said - take what all works for you and leave the rest. This is a good forum with thousands of different voices from all walks of life. Always something to learn here - and yes, many of us have been in your position and have been fleeced at least once by another horse person. I know I have.

[Bogie]

@RR_John_885

My trainer knew this was my first experience with a full lease and it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth that the first I heard about most of these costs were when I was billed for them/after I’d signed the contract.

As I’ve said in prior responses, I take 100% accountability for my ignorance and lack of due diligence.

Don’t kick yourself over this. It’s clear from what you said that there were a lot of grey areas that weren’t explained and the trainer knew this was your first lease, so should have been more forthcoming. In the end, not being upfront has cause her/him the chance to keep leasing you a horse.

As for the CWD, there are lots of people who love them and who buy the pro panels with the intention of using the saddle on multiple horses. If this one fits the horse you’re riding, your best bet is to find another horse with a similar body shape. The folks who love foam panels think those of us who buy wool-flocked panels are dinosaurs!

Given that you had only a 4-month commitment, you can honestly say that you learned a lot – and not just in your lessons.

[Bogie]

@beowulf

Push back on it “not being returnable”. CWD is awful, but there is precedence for them taking back saddles when unhappy customers make a big enough stink.

From what I’ve heard, there’s a significant restocking fee if they take the saddles back. That said, there are lots of people who love their CWDs. However, if you do want to return it, PM me and I’ll tell you what worked for one of my friends who went to war with CWD and got her money back.

[Bristol_Bay]

@RR_John_885

I bought a saddle with pro panels and I’m hearing from other posters that maybe what my trainer told me initially wasn’t necessarily an intentional mistruth and I will be able to use it on other horses. At any rate I’m going to get through the end of the last month of this lease before I decide what to do with it.

You will be able to use it on many horses with an appropriate half pad. You’d have to pry my CWD with pro panels out of my cold, dead hands.

[Bristol_Bay]

@beowulf

Push back on it “not being returnable”. CWD is awful, but there is precedence for them taking back saddles when unhappy customers make a big enough stink.

Where did the OP say he was unhappy with the saddle itself?

Name your favorite saddle. I guarantee you there are unhappy customers out there.

[Renn_aissance]

@foursocks

Uh, all I said is that the guy who is leasing the horse for four months shouldn’t be expected to pay the entire cost of semi-annual or annual costs. It doesn’t matter if he might extend the lease, it matters that a four-month lease is now paying for six months or a year’s worth of maintenance.

I disagree with the premise that a pro-rate of the vet expenses should have been expected. Say the horse’s annual maintenance schedule is that he gets injections and a loading dose of Adequan in October and April. If that’s true, the horse’s maintenance needs have been paid for for 3 months of the lease, but on someone else’s dime, because the previous caretaker paid for a therapy that lasts this horse about 6 months. So why shouldn’t the current lessee pay for the horse’s maintenance now, having benefited from someone else’s expenditure into keeping the horse comfortable to teach the OP?

(You’re not the only person who’s got this opinion, but you happened to be the post I was reading when I decided I disagreed.)

@RR_John_885

I bought a saddle with pro panels and I’m hearing from other posters that maybe what my trainer told me initially wasn’t necessarily an intentional mistruth and I will be able to use it on other horses.

Buying a saddle is like buying a bathing suit for two butts. But there is such a thing as the “average horse” and your saddle has a pretty good chance of fitting the “average horse.” My mom’s saddle is a similar model to yours and it is an acceptable fit on the range of school horses she rides, plus or minus a shim pad. On the other hand, if you didn’t fit the saddles at this barn, it’s plausible that the next barn also may not have an appropriate saddle for the average you. At your next farm, if you are considering a lease, try the saddle on the horse and if it’s a wildly poor fit don’t lease the horse. Seriously. Finding another saddle for both of you may not be worth the cost and headache, and you also deserve to have a saddle that fits you so that you aren’t fighting ill-fitting equipment. I have no idea how you are built, but I take an 18" with an extra long, extra forward flap, and on every school saddle in our barn my knee would be over the front of the flap. $9k is a hell of a lot of money for a saddle and I’m disgusted that we’ve gotten to the point that something not custom made retails for that much, but that’s not on you, and I do think it’s plausible that “buy once, cry once” applies here and that the thing will last you for a very long time.

With the additional information you’ve provided, I’m leaning harder on the side that your lack of experience was taken advantage of, and I’m sorry that happened. I hope you enjoy the last month at your current farm and that you’re able to find a good situation to learn in at your next barn.

[NaturallyHappy]

I went to war w CWD and got my money back. The saddle did not fit me nor did it fit my horse.

I wound up asking the Office of the Attorney General to step in. It seems to me you have plenty of ammunition to provide them if the saddle doesn’t work. You were pressured into buying it by your trainer (also the rep) who made money from recommending you buy a custom saddle for a short term lease. This same trainer billed you for things you had no way of knowing about that were not in the contract…and you paid. You’ve tried to do everything honestly and have not been given that same courtesy.

[RR_John_885]

@Bogie

In the end, not being upfront has cause her/him the chance to keep leasing you a horse.

Reflecting on it, this was one of the big reasons why I didn’t get suspicious before I got hit with the $275 charge for the clip. My trainer knew I was interested in competing/working with them long term…I thought they would have an incentive to treat me well and keep me happy? Had they done so I would’ve spent thousands more.

I guess some folks just can’t help themselves when they see an opportunity for an easy dollar? Certainly I had “I’M NEW HERE” written on my forehead the first time I walked into the barn.

[Nikki]

[beowulf]

@Bristol_Bay

Where did the OP say he was unhappy with the saddle itself?

Name your favorite saddle. I guarantee you there are unhappy customers out there.

Whew! Just going off of the reputation CWD has rightfully earned, I was thinking it’d spare OP the headache.

My favorite saddle is a Black Country. I doubt you’ll ever hear of a BC rep conning someone out of $9k…

[dogsbody1]

@RR_John_885

Reflecting on it, this was one of the big reasons why I didn’t get suspicious before I got hit with the $275 charge for the clip. My trainer knew I was interested in competing/working with them long term…I thought they would have an incentive to treat me well and keep me happy? Had they done so I would’ve spent thousands more.

I guess some folks just can’t help themselves when they see an opportunity for an easy dollar? Certainly I had “I’M NEW HERE” written on my forehead the first time I walked into the barn.

The horse business is tough, and I think trainers learn to be opportunistic to make it work. It’s probably the rare professional with enough of a well-funded, well-established business that they can afford not to hustle.

But I think you were onto something here. You are a valuable client. This trainer might be more willing than you’d expect to negotiate a way to keep you in their program in some capacity. You’d have to set aside your distaste over feeling hustled, but you can always hustle back.

Ask about pro-rating the vet bills. Negotiate on the fees for the BEMER and treadmill. Ask about a part lease, or even a pay-per-ride arrangement where you only pay for additional hack days outside of lessons.

Keep in mind they’ll be footing the bill for this horse for the rest of his working and retired life with or without you. It may only be natural they’d want to get as much from you as possible to subsidize his expenses, but they might be willing to accept less.

[dogsbody1]

@beowulf

Whew! Just going off of the reputation CWD has (rightfully) earned.

My favorite saddle is a Black Country. I doubt you’ll ever hear of a BC rep conning someone out of $9k…

Someone once told me you know UK saddle brands are garbage because there is no secondhand market for them. I happened to be looking for one secondhand, and they were vanishingly hard to come by (locally and available for trial, at least), so I accepted that “truism” and ended up getting a used CWD.

However, after repeated fitting issues with the CWD, it definitely got me wondering if the booming secondhand market for CWD isn’t because you simply have so many people looking to offload expensive saddles that aren’t working for their horses anymore, or only work for the two months a year their horse’s topline happens to be shaped exactement comme ça. The saddle brands you rarely see selling secondhand, well, maybe that’s because their original owners still have use for them.