Important news!! WFFS is finally recognized

[vineyridge]

@Edre

@SnicklefritzG I think one part of this is that it’s likely the gene only mutated in one horse originally (the odds of simultaneous gene mutation in the exact same locus on a chromosome in multiple horses is astronomically low). So if we take that thought and then apply it to the possibility that “patient zero” was a TB, you could find a TB stallion that was only ever used for sport breeding and never racing - which is honestly not very uncommon to find when you look at many of the prepotent TB sires in warmblood breeding, both modern and in antiquity. I assume that would be why, if the origin horse is a TB, that’s how it’s in warmbloods and not racing stock.

In searching for a common ancestor, I’ve only been doing some pedigree crunching. It’s tedious and I’m not very good at it but I think there are others who are better at it than I am. Just keep following horses back to see if you can find commonalities. I think it would take a lot of computing power to get a multigenerational pedigree up that goes back generations (some might be in excess of ten) and display that and flag commonalities.

Not only this, but horse breeding in the middle of the 18th century was very local. In fact, I’m not even sure Germany was unified by then. Even imported horses were used only within certain localities. So you are not going to see much
cross registry breeding or using of the same imported stallions until (say) the 1950s. And, as far as I can tell, Hannoverians didn’t often use Holsteiners and vice versa. Traks are about the only registry that was used in all of the various studbooks before then.

[beowulf]

@Edre

@SnicklefritzG I think one part of this is that it’s likely the gene only mutated in one horse originally (the odds of simultaneous gene mutation in the exact same locus on a chromosome in multiple horses is astronomically low). So if we take that thought and then apply it to the possibility that “patient zero” was a TB, you could find a TB stallion that was only ever used for sport breeding and never racing - which is honestly not very uncommon to find when you look at many of the prepotent TB sires in warmblood breeding, both modern and in antiquity. I assume that would be why, if the origin horse is a TB, that’s how it’s in warmbloods and not racing stock.

In searching for a common ancestor, I’ve only been doing some pedigree crunching. It’s tedious and I’m not very good at it but I think there are others who are better at it than I am. Just keep following horses back to see if you can find commonalities. I think it would take a lot of computing power to get a multigenerational pedigree up that goes back generations (some might be in excess of ten) and display that and flag commonalities.

I agree that the likelihood this gene ‘convergently’ developed in multiple individuals at the same time is very unlikely. It’s far more likely it was one individual that filtered into several registries.

Some WB breeders sure are pushing so hard to put the fault of WFFS into the hands of a TB. WFFS has never been recorded in a TB (which is the most well documented, research/studied, restricted breed organization in equestrian history) but WB breeders are insinuating it couldn’t have come from their respective registry and had to have come from a TB. There’s a lot more in a WB than just TBs - there’s gelderlanders, trotters, mixed drafts… but the focus seems to be on TBs.

Just doing a precursory examination of several of the carrier stallions &mares published, several of them do not share similar TB ancestry, but share similar recent WB ancestry.

Occam’s razor - almost all the stallions testing as carriers have similar recent non-TB ancestry, some of which come from the same stamm…

[Edre]

@beowulf

I agree that the likelihood this gene ‘convergently’ developed in multiple individuals at the same time is very unlikely. It’s far more likely it was one individual that filtered into several registries.

Some WB breeders sure are pushing so hard to put the fault of WFFS into the hands of a TB. WFFS has never been recorded in a TB (which is the most well documented, research/studied, restricted breed organization in equestrian history) but WB breeders are insinuating it couldn’t have come from their respective registry and had to have come from a TB. There’s a lot more in a WB than just TBs - there’s gelderlanders, trotters, mixed drafts… but the focus seems to be on TBs.

Just doing a precursory examination of several of the carrier stallions &mares published, several of them do not share similar TB ancestry, but share similar recent WB ancestry.

Occam’s razor - almost all the stallions testing as carriers have similar recent non-TB ancestry, some of which come from the same stamm…

On the issue of how it could have originated in a TB without thoroughbreds showing any incidents is outlined above. If the mutation happened in a horse that was limited to warmblood outcrosses and not racing, it’s completely reasonable that it would never manifest in the thoroughbred population even if it had a thoroughbred progenitor. Localised breeding, as Vineyridge mentioned above, also makes this a reasonable situation.

I’m confused by your emphasis on similar recent ancestry, can you explain that to me? I don’t think I’m understanding. The scientist who identified the gene had also indicted that the mutation happened in the mid 19th century so any pedigree commonality that extends into that era (say for sake of a broad spectrum, 1830-1880) could be suspect. Have you seen if the Trakehner pedigree also coincides with what you’ve considered? Because of the general isolation in Trak breeding as far as other WB pedigrees coming in, that may be a good litmus test for anyone who has a name in mind. It’s likely to be one of the more unique pedigrees that has tested as a carrier.

[beowulf]

@Edre

On the issue of how it could have originated in a TB without thoroughbreds showing any incidents is outlined above. If the mutation happened in a horse that was limited to warmblood outcrosses and not racing, it’s completely reasonable that it would never manifest in the thoroughbred population even if it had a thoroughbred progenitor. Localised breeding, as Vineyridge mentioned above, also makes this a reasonable situation.

I’m confused by your emphasis on similar recent ancestry, can you explain that to me? I don’t think I’m understanding. The scientist who identified the gene had also indicted that the mutation happened in the mid 19th century so any pedigree commonality that extends into that era (say for sake of a broad spectrum, 1830-1880) could be suspect. Have you seen if the Trakehner pedigree also coincides with what you’ve considered? Because of the general isolation in Trak breeding as far as other WB pedigrees coming in, that may be a good litmus test for anyone who has a name in mind. It’s likely to be one of the more unique pedigrees that has tested as a carrier.

I understand, but there aren’t many TB stallions that were limited only to WBs, and even fewer of them if you go back the estimated ~150 to 200 years that the gene has been in WBs. The more influential TBs in WB breeding that were exclusively available to WBs were not in that time-period, but largely came after (50-90 years ago).

The TK-side of the pedigree in the TK carrier is hardly obscure bloodlines.

[soloudinhere]

@keysfins

Not happy that anyone gets news they don’t want, but I am glad that Blu Hors is recognizing the demand for testing.

@soloudinhere do you have just the one mare for next year? Hopefully by then we will have more breeding horses tested, and pressure on more stallion owners.

I am waiting on results back from my current mare (Hano).

I also contacted the people who have the two foals I bred, now a grown mare and a gelding, and I have offered to pay for the testing if they are willing. With only two to test, I am happy to add to the number of tested animals; I feel responsible to know what my breeding has produced.

I have just the one personal mare but was considering a custom foal option as well. My mare is clear, so I would still be interested in using him if they choose to open him to clear mares for next year.

I wouldn’t necessarily know the status of the mare on a custom foal, so I would likely pick a different stallion for that.

[banmharcach]

@keysfins

There was also a report in the FB group of another WFFS foal born this month, in Sweden. Now I cannot locate the Swedish article that was referred to. Need better Google-fu skills.

.

http://www.hippson.se/artikelarkivet…m-ditt-sto.htm

www.hippson.se/artikelarkivet/hippsonnews/folet-foddes-med-den-arftliga-sjukdomen.htm

Google translate is not as proficient with Swedish as it is with Dutch/German but you can get the gist of it.

[vineyridge]

From what I gather from the last article, because there was almost no mention of the dam at all, she was imported from Holland several years ago. Her name isn’t mentioned.

I think it’s unfair to place all the responsibility on the sire–as this article seems to.

[banmharcach]

@vineyridge

. Her name isn’t mentioned.

.

mare: Fighting Rolanda by Fighting Alpha according to entry in

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LaUPYcFMLjdJGDEQFjkqb1JRV9GWnmTqqdR711NwpAM/htmlview#

[Elles]

Total US is a carrier.

[RunningwaterWBs]

@Manni01, can I suggest you modify the title of this thread to include WFFS? That would make it easily searchable in the future.

[vineyridge]

I just had a thought. Most WB breeding is done by AI with frozen or chilled semen. What would happen if mare owners simply refused to buy semen from untested stallions? A boycott, if you will? Would mare owners be willing to join together and do such a thing on a wide scale?

[Manni01]

@RunningwaterWBs

@Manni01, can I suggest you modify the title of this thread to include WFFS? That would make it easily searchable in the future.

I did!! Hopefully this title makes it more searchable!!

[Manni01]

@vineyridge

I just had a thought. Most WB breeding is done by AI with frozen or chilled semen. What would happen if mare owners simply refused to buy semen from untested stallions? A boycott, if you will? Would mare owners be willing to join together and do such a thing on a wide scale?

I would believe that most breeders are in Germany. And there not one stallion is tested. So I guess german breeders would have to use dutch or scandinavian stallions…

[vineyridge]

@Manni01

I would believe that most breeders are in Germany. And there not one stallion is tested. So I guess german breeders would have to use dutch or scandinavian stallions…

Or just not breed their mares for a year.

A boycott would need to be announced to the public, giving the reason why mare owners would not purchase semen from untested stallions. Seems to me that would take the testing decision out of the hands of the stallion owners. Mare owners who don’t test themselves probably wouldn’t go along, but an announced boycott would also publicize the need for mare testing.

[keysfins]

@vineyridge

Or just not breed their mares for a year.

A boycott would need to be announced to the public, giving the reason why mare owners would not purchase semen from untested stallions. Seems to me that would take the testing decision out of the hands of the stallion owners. Mare owners who don’t test themselves probably wouldn’t go along, but an announced boycott would also publicize the need for mare testing.

It is the Carrot vs. the Stick (or Whip)

What is the desired result? Mare owners want stallion owners to test and make known their stallions’ status for this gene, so mare owners can make suitable choices for their mares, to avoid breeding a carrier to a carrier.

How can we make it beneficial for stallion owners to do so? (The Carrot)
How can we make it detrimental if they do NOT? (The Whip)

The Carrot is almost always more effective, and nicer than the Whip. Reward the correct behavior, or efforts that make steps toward the desired behavior. As I have previously posted, US breeders standing stallions have been praised and thanked for sharing the status of their stallions. And now we have complete studbooks testing and sharing the status of their stallions, such as today’s notice from KWPN. Yay!! And THANKS!!

IMO, there needs to be dialog, communication with the stallion owners. What are their fears, why do they resist testing or even acknowledging the issue?

When the rest of the WB breeding world is facing and managing the issue well with testing, education and communication, will that allay the fears of the stallion owners? Surely they do not want to create an affected foal. Eventually, and not far from now, a mare owner will routinely ask for the status of a stallion that might be of interest, it will become normalized. ((Does anyone remember going back a few years with EVA status, and vaccinating stallions? Is this a similar situation?))

What is the reward for testing and disclosing? Will stallion owners see that they will still have mare owners who want their stallions, provided it is a suitable match with respect to the gene status? That their breeding books will still be ok, and their stallions still in demand, with suitable matches? If the stallion is a carrier, then N/N mares are suitable. If the stallion is N/N, then any mare is suitable. In both cases, avoiding a Carrier x Carrier cross is achieved.

And…will they have a choice? If the number of Stud books that are testing and disclosing WFFS gene status has increased in just a few weeks, it will only be a matter of time before all will test and announce. The Registries DO have a responsibility to do this, IMHO. And the Registries will still have the benefit of income from foal registrations, which is motivating.

That is my hope, and I am an optimist. Others may have different views, or different experiences with European stallion owners.

@Manni, thank you for updating the title of the thread.

[soloudinhere]

@Manni01

I would believe that most breeders are in Germany. And there not one stallion is tested. So I guess german breeders would have to use dutch or scandinavian stallions…

Most breeders of what? I think the Dutch and the French probably have a divergent opinion on that.

[keysfins]

@Manni01

I would believe that most breeders are in Germany. And there not one stallion is tested. So I guess german breeders would have to use dutch or scandinavian stallions…

I hope it will only take one or two that DO test and Post results. A few brave people that disclose a piece of information, and receive thanks and praise for doing so.

The information itself is not good or bad, however it is a piece of information that informed and educated breeders now want. I am hopeful that either the stallion owners will test to be able to tell mare owners the result, or that Registries will test ALL stallions registered, and will publicize results.

But my breeding experience has only been with NA stallion owners. I don’t have a feel for the bigger Sporthorses industry in Europe. If I did, I might have better ideas or suggestions.

[Elles]

Tested as being carriers: Everdale (v. Lord Leatherdale), Guardian S (v. Bodyguard Moorland), Habanna (v. Vivaldo) Inclusive (v. Everdale), Indian Rock (v. Apache), Inspire (v. Everdale), Jack (v. Fernando H), Jubel ES (v. Harley VDL), Regino (v. Animo) en Total US (v. Totilas)

[Elles]

Tested positive:

Everdale (v. Lord Leatherdale), Guardian S (v. Bodyguard Moorland), Habanna (v. Vivaldo) Inclusive (v. Everdale), Indian Rock (v. Apache), Inspire (v. Everdale), Jack (v. Fernando H), Jubel ES (v. Harley VDL), Regino (v. Animo) en Total US (v. Totilas)

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

I think the wording needs to be adjusted. Those stallions are NOT positive, they are carriers. HUGE difference