Important news!! WFFS is finally recognized

Yes, and also another issue that’s a tad more technical but really important: The danger of producing a population that is genetically homogeneous or a case where the offending allele is “fixed” in it. When this becomes the case, even if you wanted to outcross with respect to the ancestries of two given horses, you can’t find a horse in the population that’s unrelated enough.

There is some history to this problem of calculating “background” levels of genetic homogeneity. It’s quite hard to do, but has been tried by geneticists.

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I have to admit how surprised I was at the limited genetic diversity in the warmblood pedigrees that I looked at–and the amount of close breeding.

A number of Gelderlander stallions have also proved to be carriers.

This is a typical Hosteiner from the beginning of the 1900’s for example. So yes, linebreeding could be quite intense around that time.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/first3

Elles, are Gelderlanders not in the public list of KWPN stallions who have been tested?

That is one thing that adds to the time of trying to figure out the source. I started off with a list of possibilities and many of the horses I looked at had all the suspects. Removing suspects took a lot more work.

I imagine part of that is being limited to what they had locally. Not like today with all that can be done with AI.

What I am still wondering is whether people searching for the “suspect” added the WFFS status of some of the horses they were researching to a public database :frowning: I know somebody did it and a lot of the owners were very upset about it…

Yes, there was a closed FB group that was compiling a spreadsheet (or the equivalent) of tested horses and their status. Someone grabbed the spreadsheet and started entering WFFS status into one of the pedigree databases. So not cool…

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I read something on the UC-Davis Facebook page that suggests that the allele may have entered the horse population before the invention of the TB.

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No, the Gelderlanders were not in that list. No carriers have been found (yet? ) among the carriage horses.

Can you point me to the page? It doesn’t seem to be in any discussion on the UC Davis VGL FB page.

I just ran down where I found it. On the WFFS Facebook page there is a June 1 post from the UC Davis VGL which gives a breakdown of the number of horses tested and the percentage of carriers that they have found. If you click on that post, it will bring up the whole sheet, including the TB percentage. On the right, there are posts relating to the list, and one poster suggested that it must have originated with a TB. VGL responded as follows:

UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Laboratory The origin of this variant is unknown and it could predate the establishment of the Thoroughbred breed.

Found it. Thank you - I know that took some time, and I appreciate it.

do we know if people who breed TB’s for racing have encountered this issue? I would imagine if were as prevalent in racing TB’s that we would have heard something by now given the amount of money involved in that branch of equestrian activities.

So if WFFS did originate with a TB or a close ancestor of one, then would it had to have been one used primarily for sport?

another thing I am wondering is how to reconcile the statments made by UC Davis with the one Wigand made. UC Davis apparently said that the allele could have predated the founding of the TB breed. Then Wigand said that the source would have been a horse that born ~170 years ago or a close ancestor.

That’s a big difference…

Thoughts on that?

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TBs have been known for decades as having reproductive problems. I would think that, before the research and new test gave substance to the genetic disease, that some of that might have been related to FFS.

It has pretty much been TB breeding dogma since the 1950s to breed for duplicates in the 4th and farther away generations. That would reduce the probability of carriers breeding considerably I would think. Close breeding in TBs has been very rare. Common sense would tell us, it seems to me. that the more times a carrier is found in a pedigree, the more likely a carrier will be produced.

At first N. Winand suggested 140 years+; now she is saying 170+ years. No telling at this point how old the allele mutation is.

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@ vineyridge (or anyone else who finds the history of this science interesting rather than intolerable, irrelevant and pedantic);

In the early 1920s, one of the founders of Theoretical Population Genetics, American student of physiological genetics, Sewall Wright wrote four papers about the pedigrees and populations of Shorthorn cattle. He used these animals because they had pedigrees stretching from his present back to the 1780s. Another interesting feature to note about Shorthorn cattle is that they went through some genetic bottlenecks with disastrous consequences for a few 19th-century fanciers who bought terribly inbred animals for the value of their pedigree. So in some parts of that breed (located in the US, I believe) there was a big and important genetic bottleneck.

Among other things, Wright used that rich pedigree information to calculate the degree of homogeneity for the breed at large. This kind of measurement doesn’t speak to the presence of individual alleles like the frequency of the recessive one we are talking about here. Rather, each animal is treated as a unit (with his full and more-or-less unknown compliment of alleles), and his percentage of shared ancestry with the average animal in the group, or with another one, is what was being discussed. I think that’s a pretty useful place to start.

It also means that when you choose an out-cross kind of a pairing, you might want to ask yourself just how far “out” or unrelated those two individuals are, even beyond that 5 generation pedigree. That’s a breed-level problem for the JC or WB registries to consider, IMO.

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I can think of two “bottlenecks” that had a great effect on warmblood breeds, WWI and WWII.

Automobiles and tractors got rid of a lot of horses.

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My thought, as I mentioned earlier, was since the JC keeps statistics on mares bred, live foals, aborts, and foals born that subsequently died, while the WB registries do not keep those statistics, the JC would more likely (pre-testing) be able to find affected TB lines.

I haven’t any inkling if the “possibly predating the TB” has any basis in fact, but I am not an expert. I would wait for the experts to hash it out, take the “possible” at this point, and wait for more studies.

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Weatherby published the first TB Studbook (An Introduction to a General Studbook) in 1791. I make that about 227 years ago, so only 50 years before Ninand’s last supposition.
mvp, I just found this abstract. If you have access to the whole paper, would you mind getting a copy to me? Here is a Nature article on it:
https://www.nature.com/news/2001/011…s011220-8.html

You think that with that much relatedness over a period of over two hundred years, FFS would have been a major problem in the breed and recognized before now.

Abstract quote.

The thoroughbred (TB) horse is one of the oldest breeds of domestic animals, with pedigree records spanning three centuries. Because the population is essentially closed, there is concern about loss of genetic variation. Here we report two parallel analyses. In the first, genetic variation in the current population is measured using data from 13 microsatellite loci in 211 horses with relationships calculated based on allele sharing. In the second analysis, pedigree information is used to calculate genetic relationships between animals based on shared ancestry. These two measures of relationship are compared and shown to be closely related. Together, they provide an estimate of the amount of genetic variation which existed in founder animals. This study confirms the narrow genetic base of the breed and provides comprehensive analysis of contributions of founder animals. Seventy‐eight percent of alleles in the current population are derived from 30 founders, 27 of these male. Ten founder females account for 72% of maternal lineages, while one founder stallion is responsible for 95% of paternal lineages.

[URL=“https://doi.org/10.1046/j.1365-2052.2001.00785.x”]https://doi.org/10.1046/j.1365-2052.2001.00785.x

Interesting Australian study on the TB and genetic diversity and its effect on performance.:
https://europepmc.org/articles/pmc5906619