Impressive was more than half TB. This in not at all unusual in the modern QH lines.
Many ‘western’ trainers have difficulties dealing with TB temperaments, expecting more traditionally QH reactions.
In addition there seems to be a strong tendency to label the offspring of certain stallions with certain behaviour or personality types. Most of these behaviours are well within the ‘normal’ range and humans have a tendency to see trends where there aren’t any.
This is interesting to read. My gelding is Impressive bred, and whether it is coincidental or genetic or nature vs. nurture, reading through these responses there are a few things where I went “ah! He does that too!” My guy is super quiet yet oddly hyper, if that makes sense. He can not be ridden for months and you hop on and it’s like he didn’t miss a beat. However, he gets amped up really easily. He can be going great on a trail ride and randomly an hour in has a complete melt down. I have always, however, felt safe on him–I know his quirks and I haven’t ever felt he’s being dangerous. He doesn’t like being pestered about things and needs a quiet rider to just let him settle in a figure it out. He has a “how dare you?” attitude toward discipline, but ultimately respects it. He love licking and licks everyone and everything indiscriminately. I wouldn’t say he is especially spooky, but occasionally selects a corner of the arena that he is afraid of for weeks. He gets bored easily and likes variety.
My current QH (currently out on lease) is doubly impressive-bred. He’s non-spooky, does have a buck (but generally only uses it on the longe line and gives you plenty of warning if there are some in there), but is VERY VERY particular about the order in which things occur.
You MUST walk for adequately long before requesting a trot otherwise he’ll get cranky, you MUST do some good leg yields and bending also in said walk otherwise you’ll only get a shuffle etc. etc. Some of that is probably body related, but I think some of that is just his personality. Things need to be “just so” for him, don’t change his routine. He does sort of “hold it all in” emotionally though. He’s a cribber, and I’ve noticed that with new or stressful things introduced, he’ll try to crib hard even in the indoor arena on the wall. I always felt like there was a seriously explosive buck hidden in there if he were pushed too hard one day (I’d seen it on the longe line - but never under saddle). So I never picked a fight with him, and requested that trainers give him space.
He’s also very quirky in that if he thinks someone “isn’t up to snuff”, he’ll challenge them on the longe line. Bucking and veering at them and galloping like an idiot. If you prove that it doesn’t phase you and semi-get after him, he’ll go “meh” and then go back to being his quiet, semi-deadhead self. Made it hard to get others to ride him because he’s terrifying for the beginner riders, but semi-boring and non-forward for the advanced riders.
Impressive was inbred Three Bars (TB), being a son of Lucky Bars (TB) and out of a mare by Lightning Bar (Doc Bar’s sire) by Three Bars and second dam was also a granddaughter of Three Bars.
There are many AQHA horses that are bred similarly, is part of how the bred was formed.
It is believed that Impressive gene lottery produced a serious mutation that gave some of it’s offspring HYPP.
That mutation made those affected have problems and, before anyone realized what was going on, gave Impressive’s offspring the reputation of being difficult, with very good reason.
Today we can test for it and the AQHA is trying to phase out horses that are affected, any not N/N, out of the gene pool.
Because of legal concerns, that can’t be done by just adding rules against it, but have to follow a lengthy process to require testing and try to phase it out over years.
Here is more:
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php
There is good reason for the reputation Impressive horses have, not just a label because “many western trainers can’t handle TB temperaments”.
Just for those that may not know about this.
I would not have an Impressive bred horse who wasn’t N/N. However, one who was N/N would be welcome in my barn. The one I knew growing up was sensitive and could be spooky about funny things, but was handled carefully when younger. She was an incredible athlete, could easily have been a GP jumper if pointed that direction, stunning mover, really cool horse. She was tested once HYPP was more known and was N/N. I loved the sensitivity, but agree that alone causes many people problems, especially if they have only worked with horses lacking any kind of sensitivity. The trainer that horse was with now mostly works with Arabians - he loves sensitive.
My barn owner acquired an Impressive-bred QH from the pasture down the road for the grand sum of $1.00. He’s N/N, and we don’t know anything about him other than that he was in that field for a while and had probably just been “cowboyed” about whenever he was ridden.
That said, he’s turning out to be a very sweet boy. He’s sensitive, and he can get evasive when he doesn’t want to work, but all he’ll do is back up or go all giraffe and jiggy. Mind you, one of the barn owner’s other horses is a gigantic, super-athletic Jazz offspring, so her bar for “reactive” is set pretty high. She just loves him, and she’s working on turning him into her daughter’s do-everything horse.
He’s got the CUTEST little QH ears and such a kind expression.
Evasive is the perfect word. My guy is evasive as well when he doesn’t walk to work, but once you talk him into it he relents pretty well.
And… sensitive is an understatement for my guy. You want canter, from the halt? Think it. While you’re trotting or at walk? Literally weigh your inside seat bone 3 ounces, point your outside hip to his inside ear and you’ve got canter. Stop? bring your center of gravity behind his by one degree. And for the love of all that’s holy, NEVER touch his mouth except to recycle energy (gently), or offer a (very fair, judiciously-applied) half-halt.
He’s definitely a lefty… anyone else care to share what direction of travel is ‘easier’ for their Impressive horse?
I showed an Impressive daughter decades ago for a friend (to fill the Hunter Hack at QH shows for points purposes). She was lovely to ride but very witchy on the ground. She was a lefty but so are all the horses I ride because that is my better side. Ha! Sad but true.
Beautiful mare and did not have HYPP to my knowledge but it wasn’t really known yet then. No symptoms I can recall.
I love a trained QH, they are so light and responsive. At least the old way we used to do it, not the spur stopping kind. Luckily I had moved to jumpers before anyone really did that.
Mine’s a lefty.
My very first horse was an Impressive-bred APHA yearling halter filly that I broke to ride myself (at an appropriate age) when I was in high school.
She was a doll. So easy to train, so easy to ride. It was in my hunter days (hunter/jumper type hunters, not quarter horse hunters); I put her up for sale as a four year old because she just did not like jumping, and she never put a foot wrong for any buyer, either, even beginners. One beginner couple had their trainer with them who rode her western for the trial ride and got a perfect old school western pleasure (not broken-looking WP) trot and lope out of her first ask. No quirks, just an amazing little girl who unfortunately died at 6 from an HYPP attack.
As I read this thread, I do have to shake my head a little…
Impressive died in 1995 at the age of 26. Meaning, most likely, 99.9% of his direct offspring are, at the youngest, 23. (I’d verify with AQHA, but I’m out of monthly complimentary money for records. His last APHA foal was born in 1995; none in 1994, and only ten in 1993.)
While HYPP is still a big genetic issue, and definitely affects the Impressive horses - I think it’s also cautionary to not assign TOO much of personality styles to a horse that’s a great grandfather or more. Direct sire? Definitely. Sire’s sire? Maybe. Sire’s sire’s sire? You’re pushing things.
My show horse has Three Bars, Sockett, and Hot Scotch Man all on his papers. Three VERY prolific sires. However, they’re all at least three generations back. When his blood is 1/16 Three Bars, I think there’s just too many other factors at play to call him a “three bars bred” horse like so many people try to do. …
Now, he IS a son of Zippos Sensation. I absolutely will call him a “Zippo” and people in the industry know what that means, because he is a direct descendant.
There may be more at play than just the fact that Impressive is on your horse’s papers - especially if it’s past two generations back. For the general public reading this thread, it’s silly to skip over “Impressive bred” horses when Impressive is the great great great grandsire. At that point of blood dilution, they’re their own animal.
You know, Arelle? I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you, had it not been mentioned to me years ago. I’ve run into more than one person who asks “what’s his breeding?” and I go down the list, his Impressive and they roll their eyes and tell me some quirk that their Impressive offspring has.
I thought the dilution was too great to give it much weight, but when the vet this week mentioned the laryngeal abnormality, which her horse has as well… I figured I’d start this thread.
I definitely give the physical abnormalities more weight, @Sansena - after all; once that is altered, it’s going to be passed on.
However, the personality traits I still think are a stretch. :lol:
Impressive always sticks out like a sore thumb on any papers. That’s why I posted earlier about how little influence he had compared to a Paint sire on the mare’s side.
All Breed Pedigree used to be free, so I got the cross breeding and tail reports. A subscription is cheap but you can still look for or load your horse in for free. It’s fun to look for siblings, photos and points, and find foundation QH and famous TB ancestors. TB, AQHA and APHA records were loaded in so there millions of horses listed (other breeds also). I was able to connect what I had on his papers which filled in the gaps.
@walktrot I realize that the name is a sore thumb on papers, but my point was, at this point in time he’s on the papers as the 3rd or 4th generation back. To say “I have an Impressive great grandson and he’s DEFINITELY an Impressive because he’s stubborn” is silly.
I’m not sure what your point was on All Breed Pedigree. I breed APHA horses - I’ve got several that are related 3/4 generations back. Hell, my show horse and my older show horse (the ones in my avatar) are technically nephew/uncle if you want to look at it like that. :lol:
But, when you look at famous TB ancestors and foundation QHs, etc – they’re so far back that unless you’re line breeding, their genetics are such a small fraction of your horse.
Do you test for the 5, like AQHA does?
Here are the requirements:
https://www.aqha.com/daily/at-your-s…-verification/
https://www.aqha.com/genetictesting
While parentage genes tend to be diluted the further away a progenitor is located in a pedigree, some of those genetic problems will carry on for generations and some of those, like HYPP in Impressive bred horses, also can affect the individuals in more than physical ways.
So will the desirable traits, why we breed those and not other individuals to each other.
After breeding, training and competing for decades, I can sure say how a horse may be bred by the way it looks and/or acts.
Is why we breed after all, to keep those characteristics we desire, physical and mental ones, in the offspring?
Ascribing certain temperaments to specific lines is a bit like reading horoscopes: they get a lot of mileage out of generalisations.
HYPP is a dominant single-gene trait. As such the inheritance is much simpler than for any trait that involves multiple genes affecting it. One gene you either have or do not have; polygenic traits are subject to more input and greater variation.
eta: temperament is more than likely affected by many genes in combination.
Unless you are training the parents and then the offspring and then that offspring’s offspring.
Then you realize if what you are breeding for, those specific temperament traits, are there or not and why.
Folks, that is what purpose breeding is, why we breed known to known.
Of course you can see down the lines similar traits, is what we breed for.
Take for example, all equally talented, Gunner bred offspring in reining.
They will most be amenable, easy to train horses.
That is what they should bring to the table and that is what you find.
Even if you don’t know what the breeding is, when you train some of them, you can guess that is what their breeding is by how they present.
Other lines, well, you may end with the more difficult to train and motivate individuals, some more hyperalert and harder to focus ones.
Those temperament traits also predicted by their breeding and crosses from known lines.
The same for every other discipline out there with decades of breeding, training and performance behind it.
Yes, temperament is not a single gene, but it still follows known lines.
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