Improving my horse's behavior for the farrier

[Momateur]

My five year old gelding is pretty awful for the farrier. Granted, he just got his third set of shoes, so he’s very new to the experience (but he has been trimmed prior, of course). I’ve only had him about 3 months, and I have no clue what he was like for the previous farrier who trimmed him.

Per my farrier’s suggestion, I handle his feet daily. I don’t just pick them. I make him lift, stretch, hold, and relax. I move his feet in all directions. I tap on his shoes with the hoof pick to recreate the hammering sensation. For me, he’s good. But farrier shows up and…BAM!..donkey time.

First course of action is to get my farrier a six pack of beer for yesterday’s debacle, in which my horse practically tried to sit on him. That ended in horse being aced.

How can I work with my horse to improve his behavior for the farrier? What specifically can I do?

P.S. I realize that the horse needs time to learn new skills. I’m not exasperated or anything. I just want to be helpful if possible.

[kande04]

Try holding the hoof up for longer, as the problem is often that owners go along with it when the horse wants to put the hoof down, so that’s what the horse expects he can do with the farrier, too.

Also watch how the farrier holds the leg, keep track of how long they keep it up, and then make sure you can duplicate that.

Sometimes the problem is that a farrier can’t get under the horse without unbalancing him more than the horse can stand, in which case you may need a new farrier.

[chestnutmarebeware]

Is he acting scared, or more like he just doesn’t want to be compliant?

If it’s a case of the baby-horse “I don’t wannas”, beyond what you’re already doing, sometimes it’s most effective if your farrier can take one for team, grab a foot, and hang on through the shenanigans. Once the horse figures out that he’s not going to win, they usually give in. (That generally costs you more than a six-pack—think steak house gift certificate here!)

Did your farrier give you any suggestions for addressing the issue? They usually have a good sense of what’s going on, why, and what you can do to fix the problem.

Good luck! Back when my Rosie was a yearling, we moved to PA from CO and I found a farrier who advertised as being gentle and never losing his temper. He was very gentle and didn’t lose his temper, and was super talented. However, Rosie got a smack on the stomach when she tried to sit on him during a tantrum. He apologized afterward (I told him she deserved waaay worse…), and he was the one who gave her her nickname—The Evil Princess.

[NancyM]

Do you hold his feet in the same manner as the farrier does? Front ones between your knees, and hind ones on your lap? That can make a difference for some horses. Does the horse have soundness issues? Known or unknown? If so, the amount of flexion can result in pain. If your farrier holds the feet higher than you do, the horse will be more uncomfortable with him than he is with you. Some horses just don’t LIKE some people, for some reason, rational or not… this can be an issue too. If the farrier now has an opinion about your horse, the feelings may be mutual now, resulting in the two of them “pinging” off each other. If this is the issue, you may be looking for a different farrier to help solve your problem. Some horses have claustrophobic issues, and have a problem with the “restraint” that is required to hold the leg still and fixed so that it can be worked on. Dealing with such psychological and internal issues in a horse’s character are very difficult to “train” out, as they are so deeply internalized and part of his personality, but one has to try. Dealing with true “phobias” is difficult enough in humans, who speak the same language as their therapist, and possibly has more “rational thought” than a horse does. If this is the case, an “accommodation” between horse and farrier can sometimes be met, but may not be the same farrier practices as most other horses. And the farrier must be amenable to making concessions to the horse, and some aren’t. If the use of drugs is helpful and solves the issue, that works too, especially if it keeps both your farrier and your horse happy and safe. Don’t avoid the use of drugs due to a desire to be “natural”, if they are helpful to both. Don’t wait for the horse to become upset and unruly before using the drugs, use them in advance of the issue becoming a problem.

[NoSuchPerson]

@kande04

Sometimes the problem is that a farrier can’t get under the horse without unbalancing him more than the horse can stand, in which case you may need a new farrier.

I bought a new horse. The farrier that I had been using happily for years had no end of trouble shoeing this horse. We ended up resorting to drugs. IV sedation for shoeing and the horse’s behavior seemed to get worse over time.

I moved several states away. First time with new farrier I warned about the past problems and we were prepared to drug the horse. New farrier said lets try it without drugs first. Horse stood quietly - practically fell asleep in the crossties. Have never had to drug the horse again for the farrier.

I see two big differences between the new farrier and the old one. One is that the new farrier has more of an air of quiet confidence in interacting with the horses. The other is that the new farrier doesn’t lift the horse’s feet as high off the ground and he doesn’t hold them up as long - the horse gets more breaks to put his feet back on the ground.

In hindsight, I think there were several problems with the old farrier. One is that because the horse was difficult, the farrier didn’t like the horse and because the shoeing was unpleasant for the horse, the horse didn’t like the farrier and the two fed off each other, making the tension escalate.

Another, and I think the most important, is that the way the farrier handled the horse’s feet made the horse uncomfortable. And resorting to drugging him just made it worse, because then the farrier was in a big hurry to get the job done before the sedation wore off so he held the horse’s feet up higher and longer, thus increasing the horse’s discomfort.

[Momateur]

@chestnutmarebeware

Is he acting scared, or more like he just doesn’t want to be compliant?
.

He’s not acting scared at all. Not even a little. He’s acting like he doesn’t want to be cooperative. He’s not showing any distress, as you would expect from a fearful or painful horse.

This is kind of his personality. I don’t know if it’s just the age, but give him an inch and he’ll take a mile. I really have to stay on him about manners in general.

I really appreciate the comment from @NancyM about the use of drugs. I’m not trying to be natural per se, but I do want a horse who is generally a solid citizen. I prefer not to have to drug him for any non-medical reason. BUT, Nancy is right…if the Ace makes it a more pleasant, safer experience for the horse and farrier, it may just be warranted.

[kande04]

@Momateur

He’s not acting scared at all. Not even a little. He’s acting like he doesn’t want to be cooperative.

Horses want to be cooperative because it’s in their best interests to cooperate, which means that there’s likely another reason for his lack of cooperation.

The problem is almost always confusion, fear, and/or pain.

[PeteyPie]

Is it possible to try a new farrier? Sometimes a horse just doesn’t like or respect a particular farrier for reasons we may never understand. I had one behave very well for her regular farrier who happened to be a woman, which I mention because it may be part of the equation. I needed another farrier once and my mare was up on her hind legs – something she had never done before. The farrier simply said, “I can’t work with her,” which I understood. I was concerned that she would repeat that behavior since it worked once, but no, she never did that again. She was quiet and normal when her regular farrier next visited and on all subsequent visits.

I know that many will say, “Your horse should be trained to be handled by any farrier.” There are good reasons behind that argument but for me, it wasn’t worth it to sleuth it out. My case was a little different than the OP’s though, because my mare normally didn’t push the boundaries, no more than any normal horse would, and was very well behaved for me, for various vets over the years, and for her regular farrier. I felt I was giving her the benefit of the doubt that something frightened her about that other farrier.

[Scribbler]

My horse as a kid got shod every six weeks year round and was a doll about it. Suddenly after a few years she just acted like she couldn’t stand up and kept falling away from the farrier. Whoever our current farrier was actually had a big fight with her and gave up. I called out a new farrier who looked at what she was doing and said, oh let’s just let her lean against my truck. So we let her lean on the truck and all was fine.

This was before diagnostics or horse chiropractors but it was a useful lesson (and a rare one in that time and place) about thinking outside the box and accommodating a horse.

Another thought might be to have the horse warmed up before the farrier so any stiff joints are feeling ok.

[Marla_100]

@NoSuchPerson

I bought a new horse. The farrier that I had been using happily for years had no end of trouble shoeing this horse. We ended up resorting to drugs. IV sedation for shoeing and the horse’s behavior seemed to get worse over time.

I moved several states away. First time with new farrier I warned about the past problems and we were prepared to drug the horse. New farrier said lets try it without drugs first. Horse stood quietly - practically fell asleep in the crossties. Have never had to drug the horse again for the farrier.

I see two big differences between the new farrier and the old one. One is that the new farrier has more of an air of quiet confidence in interacting with the horses. The other is that the new farrier doesn’t lift the horse’s feet as high off the ground and he doesn’t hold them up as long - the horse gets more breaks to put his feet back on the ground.

In hindsight, I think there were several problems with the old farrier. One is that because the horse was difficult, the farrier didn’t like the horse and because the shoeing was unpleasant for the horse, the horse didn’t like the farrier and the two fed off each other, making the tension escalate.

Another, and I think the most important, is that the way the farrier handled the horse’s feet made the horse uncomfortable. And resorting to drugging him just made it worse, because then the farrier was in a big hurry to get the job done before the sedation wore off so he held the horse’s feet up higher and longer, thus increasing the horse’s discomfort.

Excellent Post-
OP please read this post again.

There are two sides to the problem. It’s not always the horse’s fault and sometimes it is.
I know my horses pretty well and I try to see the farrier’s side too but realistically not all farriers have patience or time to
work w/ fidgety horses.
I can usually tell how a farrier operates within minutes of him working on my older generally compiant guy. If my gelding
is giving grumpy faces at the farrier’s handling I know it won’t go well for the younger less co-operative ones.

If your horse is not being co-operative it may be time to look for another farrier. Otherwise your farrier is training your horse to fight the farrier. Not a good scenario.

Not all farriers are patient, sensitive to the horse’s comfort, willing to work with inexperienced horses.
Listen to your horse here.

[betsyk]

One of our vets is married to a farrier and they recently did an owner education seminar on helping your horse become a good citizen for anyone working on them. I won’t try to summarize it here but what I took away is that each farrier has an idea of how they want horses to behave and where the boundaries are, and what they will or won’t do to help your horse learn to behave.

I heard both vet and farrier say, “find a trainer” multiple times. I saw them work with one of their personal horses to show how they really observe her closely to see what she was worried about, her response to that thing that worried her, and their response to her response.

And, they both commented on how hard their jobs are on their bodies and how both parties need to be honest with each other when it’s no longer a good fit. This stuck in my mind as my horses, and farrier, aren’t young any more!

One other take home: the absolute importance of teaching your horse to stand still. Those “micro movements” are a killer on your vet and farrier’s back, neck, and any old injuries. Your provider gets tense under your fidgety horse because it hurts, then the horse gets tense and fidgets more. Set your horse up for success by creating a safe and controlled environment , and teach them to stand still.

hope something here is useful to you!

[Against_All_Odds1]

put a piece of tape on his nose

[foggythistle]

You’ve replied a couple of times, but you still haven’t said what specific behavior you want to change. Folks have given you the normal suggestions, but unless we know what it is that he has actually doing. What do mean by ‘not cooperative’. That could be interpreted in a number of different ways.

For my horse, ‘not cooperative’ could mean that he sat down and broke the cross-ties. For another horse, it could be that he won’t pick up his feet. Different issues, different solutions.

Can you be more specific?

[Momateur]

@foggythistle

You’ve replied a couple of times, but you still haven’t said what specific behavior you want to change. Folks have given you the normal suggestions, but unless we know what it is that he has actually doing. What do mean by ‘not cooperative’. That could be interpreted in a number of different ways.

For my horse, ‘not cooperative’ could mean that he sat down and broke the cross-ties. For another horse, it could be that he won’t pick up his feet. Different issues, different solutions.

Can you be more specific?

Sure. He picks up all four feet just fine. That part is okay.

For the front feet, the farrier can generally trim without a lot of resistance. After a little bit of nailing, my gelding just grabs his foot back. Not immediately, but eventually. Another thing he does is attempt to stand on the hoof stand periodically as if he’s trying to climb over. This is a little horrifying to me if the farrier is working on that foot.

On the hinds, two basic problems: 1. Again, tries to grab his feet back after a minute or two. 2. Wants to lean/sit on the farrier.

Hope that helps clarify.

[kashmere]

Few thoughts:

• Practicing with an actual hoofstand will likely go a loooong way. They are not cheap, but if you don’t already have your own a heavy umbrella base stand with a tennis ball on top does a good job substituting. If your farrier doesn’t use a stand, you need to practice with the same stance your farrier uses.

• Check the height of the hoof stand. I am very sympathetic to the hardworking backs and knees that farriers tend to have, but many horses are simply physically uncomfortable with a very high hoof stand. I do my two horse’s feet either on my knees or on a stand that’s about 12" high. My one mare went from an absolute needs-to-be-drugged nightmare to snoozing for her feet once I figured this out. Both the snatching and the sitting/leaning tell me there is discomfort going on - not necessarily pain but some degree of physical or mental discomfort with putting his feet in whatever position you’re asking.

• It’s a two-way street. Yes, your horse will need to learn to give his foot up for longer periods of time (assuming actual pain isn’t a part of the issue), but he is young and also needs to understand that he’ll get his foot back. When you’re practicing, pick the foot up and when the horse is standing quietly - THAT is the moment to release the foot and give him a break. Reward the behaviour you want - standing quietly - with the thing he wants to do - have his foot on the ground. Don’t wait for him to jerk it back. Take even 2 seconds of good behaviour and reward it. Ditto when it’s on the stand. Pop it up and reward even 10 seconds of standing quietly with putting it back down. If they don’t give you ANY quiet standing, I’d recommend not “disciplining” - if they’re simply pulling the foot back/off the stand, I’d just keep popping it up every single time until the magic moment when you get a second of relaxation, and then put it down for them. They see pretty quickly that it’s easier to do the “right” thing. If they start to get wound up, I’d do some work to get them focused on me and then back to the process.

You need to build this understanding and skill first before you can add in doing anything TO the feet while they’re on the stand.

• Make sure your farrier will give your horse breaks. I’ve worked with people who want to pick a foot up and not put it back down until the shoe’s been pulled, foot’s been trimmed, and shoe’s been nailed back on. I get the inclination, but I don’t feel it’s reasonable to expect that of every horse. Incorporate lots of little breaks to build on the practice work you’ll be doing. Be ready to pay them extra for a longer appointment at first - in fact, if you go into the situation saying “so and so, can you schedule me for a double appointment so we can give dobbin lots of breaks, I’m working on his farrier manners and I want to make sure there’s plenty of time so we can do it in a relaxed way - let me know what I’d owe you for that” I imagine they’d be pretty happy to work with you on it.

• Put the work in now to get this right. It CAN be done and it will save a lot of grief for you, your horse, all farriers, vets, etc., AND your wallet! It takes time, but patience and persistence will get you there.

[betsyk]

Great suggestions, kashmere!

[kashmere]

@betsyk

Great suggestions, kashmere!

Thank you, it was hard earned :lol:

[PeteyPie]

I had one horse who was a leaner. When I got her in 2011, she was 18 years old so this behavior was probably ingrained.

The farrier tried a couple of things. First, she pressed her side and that worked slightly for a minute. Then, the farrier positioned her hoof pick so that the horse was leaning into it and not her. When those didn’t get sufficient results and the mare would just lean again, she (the farrier) would wait until the horse started to lean, and then drop the foot, causing the horse to scramble to avoid falling (but not wait until there was a danger that the horse would actually fall and hurt herself). Then she made the mare move her feet by circling her around, a short around-the-handler circle on a lead rope, not a lunge line. She made her hustle, not just plod around. After a few times of having to work on this first occasion, the mare behaved but the farrier had to repeat this process on the next few visits. I don’t think she spent more then five minutes working with/correcting the mare the first time, and on subsequent visits it might have involved only a couple of instances where the farrier or I would react and make the horse move her feet, and I would estimate this took less than thirty seconds to have the horse hustle around.

Now this mare behaves quite well and the few times she thinks about leaning, I just give a little tap on her neck and a stern “Stand!” and she straightens up.

As for the training, I read that many farriers don’t have the time, desire or inclination to help you with that. I am grateful and lucky to have such a willing farrier, because I need all the help I can get. Also, I pay well, I pay on time, and I tip well every Christmas. I also offered to pay extra for the work she did with this horse. She refused, but I’m sure she appreciated the offer.

@Scribbler wrote, “Another thought might be to have the horse warmed up before the farrier so any stiff joints are feeling ok.” I think this is really important for a horse of any age, especially if it is coming right out of a stall.

[Momateur]

@kashmere I really appreciate the time you took to write that! Now I’m thinking I might need to invest in a hoof stand just for this reason.

I think you might be right about the discomfort. I don’t think he’s in pain necessarily, but it doesn’t feel good, either. When I lift his feet, I do what you say…relaxation = you get your foot back. He understands this. It took practice, but he’s a smart boy. Now I can move his feet around and he rarely resists. I also think there’s an element of trust involved. He knows me and we’ve practiced this together extensively. BUT, as you pointed out, I do not have a hoof stand. I haven’t asked him to relax with his foot on that. And, really, that feels like a “duh” on my part.

Thank you for your wisdom!

[kashmere]

@Momateur You’re welcome! It really really helps to practice with the real deal - and it’s so key to take it slow and make sure you are actually rewarding the behaviour you want.

I find that I’ve often been guilty of accidentally creating a lot of pressure around something I want my horses to do because I haven’t taken the time to break down the individual components of it and get them comfortable with those first. Just last night, for example, I wanted to get my new rehab guy’s feet flushed out and packed with anti-fungal goop (we’re battling some wicked thrush). This involves picking the feet out, brushing with a wire brush, spraying the solution into the frog sulcus, and then squeezing the goop in. He snatched his foot away a few times and was getting super antsy and I spent about 5 mins sort of fighting with him - picking up the foot and doing my damndest to just scrape it out and get it allll done - before I caught myself and realized that I was doing the exact opposite of what I wanted. I was showing him that picking up his foot meant that not only was I going to pick it out, I was going to hold it FOREVER and do all sorts of weird crap to it. Whoops.

Reset. Gave him some wither scratches to apologize for my foolishness. Spent about 5 mins reminding him that I’m always going to give the foot back, and then started again. Foot up, pick it out, put it down. Foot up, wire brush, down. Foot up, spray solution, down. I also always make sure that any horse is standing squarely and doesn’t have a foot cocked up or rested when I’m trying to pick up another one - make sure they are physically set up to be comfortable.

Wouldn’t you know, he figured out pretty quickly that it was all going to be fine.