Improving the draft cross mare's canter with a warmblood or tb stallion. Any advice?

[jsydney5]

I would like to start browsing some stallions to breed to my draft cross mare. She’s a 17.1hh bay clyde/tb cross with a big blaze. Very smart, big personality, big work ethic, and looks more like a true warmblood than a draft cross. http://s300.photobucket.com/user/jsydney5/library/
Her walk and trot are beautiful, with lots of suspension! She acquired the draft “canter” so I’d like to improve that with a stallion who has more angles to his hind legs, that can really get under himself in true collection.

I’m tall, so I need a tall horse with good bone. Nothing smaller than 16.2hh. The most important trait for me in a stallion is that they have a dynamite canter, with a fabulous hind end. The foal would be bred for myself.

If you have any suggestions, please advise. I prefer bays/blacks vs. chestnuts/greys. Thank you!

[magienoire]

Schroeder ticks all your boxes

[fordtraktor]

If this is the same horse, you’ve posted before about this horse not having a canter, and you’ve spent years not getting one out of her. I don’t think I’d breed a horse that doesn’t have a good canter, or any canter at all, with hopes to do dressage on the baby. You’ll very likely get a horse that also doesn’t have a good canter either, because mom is at least half the picture and a stallion can only improve so much. If you are on any kind of budget, then you’ll be throwing a lot of good money away after bad breeding one that already isn’t meeting your expectations. You might get lucky, but you very well might not. Why risk it?

I’d sell this one or just keep riding her for now, save the money you would have spent breeding and raising the baby, and buy a really nice WB weanling and yearling with it in a year or two. You will easily be able to do that if you put the stud fee, the vet check expenses, the basic costs, etc away in the bank and don’t touch them. Then you’ll have a much nicer horse in the long run.

Sorry to be blunt but I’m not a breeder, I’m a rider. I caution you not to get too sentimental about decisions like this because at the end of the day you DON’T want a carbon copy of your horse, far from it, and that is not a good place to start when it comes to breeding. She’s a very pretty mare and seems sweet, enjoy her and see what you can do to bring her to her full potential. But I don’t think that’s the breeding shed, myself. She might be a great fit for a cautious rider who just wants to walk and trot.

[DoubleDown]

Lotus T is who I choose for my draft cross mare for breeding in the spring.

[crosscreeksh]

Some of the very best “sport horses” we bred were 3/4 TB - 1/4 Clyde!! TB’s are bred to gallop!!!

[fordtraktor]

Looking at your other thread on this horse where you haven’t been able to get any canter out of this horse after trying for a couple of years, I wouldn’t breed her. I don’t recommend starting with a horse would wouldn’t be happy with a carbon copy of and this horse doesn’t seem to meet that threshold.

Save the money you would have spent about buy yourself a nice baby with three good gaits and a nice disposition. It won’t be any more expensive and you are much more likely to get something that has a decent canter.

I have no skin in this game because I don’t breed, but I do know the odds on producing something nice out of a horse that can’t canter itself, and they aren’t good.

I am not at all against draft crosses either, but many of them canter just fine and I would start with one of those.

[Foxtrot_s]

I’m one of those “back yard breeders” so many look down on. I am riding my third generation and nothing -nothing - has given me more satisfaction to ride my lovely mare knowing I saw her born, and have orchestrated her whole life. That could be one big reason for the OP to breed.

Not offering any suggestions, but Holsteiners are known for their canters. Could ride that canter all day. She has very good hind articulation. fwiiw - she is by Royal Appearance, but he may throw heavier…my mare is a little heavy bodies so the cross with draft - don’t know.

[jsydney5]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8415823]
Looking at your other thread on this horse where you haven’t been able to get any canter out of this horse after trying for a couple of years, I wouldn’t breed her. I don’t recommend starting with a horse would wouldn’t be happy with a carbon copy of and this horse doesn’t seem to meet that threshold.

Save the money you would have spent about buy yourself a nice baby with three good gaits and a nice disposition. It won’t be any more expensive and you are much more likely to get something that has a decent canter.

I have no skin in this game because I don’t breed, but I do know the odds on producing something nice out of a horse that can’t canter itself, and they aren’t good.

I am not at all against draft crosses either, but many of them canter just fine and I would start with one of those.[/QUOTE]

I really appreciate you taking the time to check out the mare’s history to give an honest reply. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve thought about the foal having canter problems too. Dr Riddle diagnosed this mare with arthritis in her hocks, which is why she’s been hurting in the canter. Is the arthritis genetic? I don’t know. Do i want to breed another potential problem? Definitely not. But the only other “job” for this horse, is to be a pasture ornament. A very, very beautiful pasture ornament. I consulted Dr Riddle to get his thoughts, and he said he had no problem with me breeding the mare. He said her arthritis is most likely a conformational flaw, and with big draft crosses, they tend to develop arthritis earlier in life than lighter breeds. He advised me to choose a stallion with angular hind limbs that has a lengthy, proven show record (to demonstrate they are sound).

This is information coming from my vet, a very well respected vet. Do I think he could be wrong? Maybe. I’ve done research on arthritis being inherited in foals, and there wasn’t enough evidence to be conclusive. My vet was supportive of breeding this particular mare, so I think exploring the possibility of breeding her isn’t a terrible thing.

But i think you ARE right, that I could save a lot of money and buy myself a very nice baby! I may do that. In the mean time, I’d like to educate myself and feel like I’ve considered all of the options.

[jsydney5]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8416733]
I’m one of those “back yard breeders” so many look down on. I am riding my third generation and nothing -nothing - has given me more satisfaction to ride my lovely mare knowing I saw her born, and have orchestrated her whole life. That could be one big reason for the OP to breed.

Not offering any suggestions, but Holsteiners are known for their canters. Could ride that canter all day. She has very good hind articulation. fwiiw - she is by Royal Appearance, but he may throw heavier…my mare is a little heavy bodies so the cross with draft - don’t know.[/QUOTE]

You’ve really hit the nail on the head! I love this mare, and would enjoy producing her offspring, if i cant produce her.

What are your thoughts on Concerto Grosso? I will look at Royal Appearance and ask a lot of questions! Thank you!

[fordtraktor]

Concerto Grosso has a lovely canter and jump, and a beautiful mind. I was a working student at the barn that imported him when he was three. He was so easy, easy, easy and scope to the skies. Lofty jump and beautiful gaits, and most important a joy to work with.

CG does not have an extensive show record but he was very sound when I knew him. I don’t know how long he would have held up. He was relatively young when he went to stud, I believe. More for all the usual expense reasons.

Good luck!

[epowers]

[QUOTE=jsydney5;8418692]
Dr Riddle diagnosed this mare with arthritis in her hocks, which is why she’s been hurting in the canter. Is the arthritis genetic? I don’t know. Do i want to breed another potential problem? Definitely not. But the only other “job” for this horse, is to be a pasture ornament. A very, very beautiful pasture ornament. I consulted Dr Riddle to get his thoughts, and he said he had no problem with me breeding the mare. He said her arthritis is most likely a conformational flaw, and with big draft crosses, they tend to develop arthritis earlier in life than lighter breeds. He advised me to choose a stallion with angular hind limbs that has a lengthy, proven show record (to demonstrate they are sound).

This is information coming from my vet, a very well respected vet. Do I think he could be wrong? Maybe. I’ve done research on arthritis being inherited in foals, and there wasn’t enough evidence to be conclusive. My vet was supportive of breeding this particular mare, so I think exploring the possibility of breeding her isn’t a terrible thing.

But i think you ARE right, that I could save a lot of money and buy myself a very nice baby! I may do that. In the mean time, I’d like to educate myself and feel like I’ve considered all of the options.[/QUOTE]

It’s not like he’s saying your mare has bad hocks because of a rough life, or an injury, or even some unknown reason… your vet is directly telling you her hocks are bad and she is unsound because of the way she’s built. You know what she’s likely to pass on to her offspring? The way she’s built. And thus, the problem with the hocks. I’m admittedly left scratching my head at a vet who says a horse is unsound for conformation reasons should be bred. If you really want to roll those dice, that’s your call, but I definitely would not.

[Foxtrot_s]

My mare is 17.00 hh o/o a 16.3 hh mare. RA gave her the sweetest temperament, never a pinned ear or aggressive move. She is kind, polite and bold. Cannot comment on Concerto Grosso tho.

[Centuree]

The only other job is for her to be a pasture ornament? Can she not still do light riding, trail riding? How old is this girl? She is truly gorgeous by the way.

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=jsydney5;8418692]
I really appreciate you taking the time to check out the mare’s history to give an honest reply. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve thought about the foal having canter problems too. Dr Riddle diagnosed this mare with arthritis in her hocks, which is why she’s been hurting in the canter. Is the arthritis genetic? I don’t know. Do i want to breed another potential problem? Definitely not. But the only other “job” for this horse, is to be a pasture ornament. A very, very beautiful pasture ornament. I consulted Dr Riddle to get his thoughts, and he said he had no problem with me breeding the mare. He said her arthritis is most likely a conformational flaw, and with big draft crosses, they tend to develop arthritis earlier in life than lighter breeds. He advised me to choose a stallion with angular hind limbs that has a lengthy, proven show record (to demonstrate they are sound).

This is information coming from my vet, a very well respected vet. Do I think he could be wrong? Maybe. I’ve done research on arthritis being inherited in foals, and there wasn’t enough evidence to be conclusive. My vet was supportive of breeding this particular mare, so I think exploring the possibility of breeding her isn’t a terrible thing.

But i think you ARE right, that I could save a lot of money and buy myself a very nice baby! I may do that. In the mean time, I’d like to educate myself and feel like I’ve considered all of the options.[/QUOTE]

I’m a draft cross fan, but…my thought is…what if she DOES produce a foal with hock/soundness issues?? Then you have TWO pasture ornaments. I’d keep the mare and buy myself a nice cross foal without known issues!! Just my thoughts.

[fordtraktor]

You might also think about whether she can be leased out as a walk/trot/trail type as opposed to a broodmare. It might be that she can’t hold up for what you want her to do, but would be able to handle a less strenuous career, with injections?

[Hunterkid]

Yikes ! Only sound enough to be a pasture pet but you want to breed her ? Absolutely not imo. Also, what breeder is going to want to breed their stud to a horse that isn’t sound enough to ride and has only really done w/t ?

[IronwoodFarm]

Seriously, save yourself the time, heartbreak and money with your mare. Breeding is a real crap shoot and you can just as easily get the no improvement. I think the advice of buying a youngster with the movement you want is a better use of your time and effort.

And your mare – find her a job she can do. Maybe she can’t do what you want her to do, but she seems like she can work. Or let her be a pasture ornament; she won’t care.

[JB]

[QUOTE=jsydney5;8418692]
I really appreciate you taking the time to check out the mare’s history to give an honest reply. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve thought about the foal having canter problems too. Dr Riddle diagnosed this mare with arthritis in her hocks, which is why she’s been hurting in the canter. Is the arthritis genetic? I don’t know. Do i want to breed another potential problem? Definitely not. But the only other “job” for this horse, is to be a pasture ornament. A very, very beautiful pasture ornament. I consulted Dr Riddle to get his thoughts, and he said he had no problem with me breeding the mare. He said her arthritis is most likely a conformational flaw, and with big draft crosses, they tend to develop arthritis earlier in life than lighter breeds. He advised me to choose a stallion with angular hind limbs that has a lengthy, proven show record (to demonstrate they are sound).

This is information coming from my vet, a very well respected vet. Do I think he could be wrong? Maybe. I’ve done research on arthritis being inherited in foals, and there wasn’t enough evidence to be conclusive. My vet was supportive of breeding this particular mare, so I think exploring the possibility of breeding her isn’t a terrible thing.

But i think you ARE right, that I could save a lot of money and buy myself a very nice baby! I may do that. In the mean time, I’d like to educate myself and feel like I’ve considered all of the options.[/QUOTE]

I just had to say how nice it was to read the tone of your reply here So many would have taken ford’s reply (or anyone saying the same thing) and gotten huffy and defensive with “you don’t know me or my horse!” LOL Thank you for taking the comments objectively

That said, I totally agree with ford and your last paragraph. Having someone like Riddle say it’s very likely the arthritis is a direct result of her conformation would put me off breeding her, even if nothing else did.

You also say she’s got the “draft canter”, and you just cannot count on any stallion improving that to a large degree. I’ve seen some amazing Clyde x TB crosses that did not have a draft canter. Of all the draft breeds, the Clyde is top of my list to breed to a TB IF I were going to be doing that sort of breeding, and I agree that adding TB for the F2 cross has made some astonishingly nice horses.

But not remotely all Clydes are suitable to breed as riding horses,and it sounds like your mare’s Clyde parent is one of them.

So that’s 2 big strikes against breeding this mare at all.

[_Tradewind]

It’s possible to get quality mares (TBs and/or well bred Warmbloods) quite cheaply on breeding leases. If you want the experience of having a foal and are willing to endure the expense/time/potential complications of breeding your mare, you may want to think about this option. It will cost you the same, and you will likely end up with a foal that more closely approximates what you want.

[jsydney5]

@JB;8420316

I just had to say how nice it was to read the tone of your reply here So many would have taken ford’s reply (or anyone saying the same thing) and gotten huffy and defensive with “you don’t know me or my horse!” LOL Thank you for taking the comments objectively

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be snippy but that never gets you anywhere on this forum! Heehe ?

I understand the responses I’ve gotten because I’ve thought of these issues myself. Is the mare able to be bred? Yes. Should the mare be chosen as a broodmare? That depends. But the answer is not a cold-hard fast NO. That is just a mere opinion, which is fine… horse people have strong opinions. The horse has mild arthritis in the hocks and research is non-conclusive as to whether or not a foal will inherit these issues. As mentioned, it’s a roll of the dice.

I talked to Dr. Riddle again this morning to get feedback on the criticism of breeding her. And he is still supportive. He suggested it without me even bringing up the topic, as an option for “what to do next.” He said that of course there is a risk of the foal having issues, (that can be said of any flaw) but he was confident that choosing a stallion with a long history of soundness and angular hind limbs would be appropriate for breeding to the mare. He said there are stallions that have consistent offspring. Choose one of them. Or make her a trail horse. I don’t want a trail horse, I’ve got Mr. Dressage Horse that will suit me just fine to go out for an occasional hack.

Agreed, she won’t care if she sits out in the field for the rest of her life. But I care.