Improving the draft cross mare's canter with a warmblood or tb stallion. Any advice?

[Dressagelvr]

I have to say that I agree she shouldn’t be bred. It is nearly impossible to tell what a draft cross will throw and with all her soundness issues, the chances that she will produce something that doesn’t have those issues is really, really low.

If you take the time to add up what you would spend breeding her, you can just more easily buy something already on the ground of better predictable quality.

Sorry to be negative, I just truly think you’ll save yourself heartache by not breeding her. After all, the only thing worse than one lame horse is two.

[Foxtrot_s]

None of us have actually seen this mare. Dr Riddle has and he is a top vet…I’d take his advice over any on this forum…bearing in mind that breeding is always more expensive than purchasing a prospect, but then you do not have the satisfaction of your own foal. If you have her at home that is a consideration, too.
Mine are t home.

[D_BaldStockings]

So your vet gave you the answer you wanted…

Is he also going to foot the bills for breeding, foaling, raising the youngster and caring for possible future issues due to soundness if her predisposition turns out to be a problem?

…I didn’t think so.

ANY mare can be improved by breeding. Most shouldn’t be bred.

Or you could go with a halter QH and get a nice ‘meat horse’. That is what an unsound horse without a sponsor for pasture puff becomes, whether at auction or put down by the owner. You already have one, why make it 2?

Another job for your current mare is BABYSITTER to raise the youngster you buy; or companion to the better broodmare you buy and breed for Sport.

-Note there are some nice TB Sport type mares currently available (see other posts) that would make a better base for you than breeding your current mare.

Of course you may do as you please, but there is more to a riding horse than bling.

[Kimchi]

OP, I totaly understand why you want to breed your mare, she is lovely and it sound like she is sweet too, you are probable heart broken that you can no longer ride and compete her the way you want to. And to have a foal from her would be like having a bit or her to keep riding.

However I just don’t think it is the best idea given her hock issues. Breeding is a gamble at the best of times and it is very risky when you add career ending lameness to the mix. So please think it over very carefully!

[jsydney5]

@D_BaldStockings;8423604

So your vet gave you the answer you wanted…

Is he also going to foot the bills for breeding, foaling, raising the youngster and caring for possible future issues due to soundness if her predisposition turns out to be a problem?

…I didn’t think so.

You don’t have to be rude. Dr. Riddle suggested breeding this mare as an option. I didn’t pay him to tell me “what I wanted to hear.”
He suggested researching stallions that have angular hind limbs with a great canter and a long show record to demonstrate soundness. That’s what I’m doing. Shoot me.

Thank you to those that have PM’d me and taken this conversation offline.

[JB]

I must admit I too and fairly confused at Riddle being quite ok with and advocating for breeding this mare, give his comment that her arthritis is likely related to her conformation. IMHO a conformation serious enough to be considered a direct contribution to arthritis, by one of the leading lameness experts in the country, ought to be the biggest checkmark in the Con column for breeding this mare, trumping everything else.

Yes, there are definitely stallions who are very prepotent for putting their own conformation on a foal out of a variety of mares, or improving mares who are ok but not great. But “prepotent” does not translate to “guaranteed”.

It also bothers me that he’s focused on what the stallion has (conformation) and does (performance).

"He advised me to choose a stallion with angular hind limbs that has a lengthy, proven show record (to demonstrate they are sound). "

“He suggested researching stallions that have angular hind limbs with a great canter and a long show record to demonstrate soundness.”

Has he said nothing in terms of the conformation of his foals, and the long-term soundness of his performing offspring? That matters FAR more than what the stallion is and is doing.

Who cares if the stallion is 25 and has performed at upper levels for 15 years without any major lamenesses, if he has not demonstrated his foals can do the same?

So, my point is - if you’re going to pursue breeding this mare (which I still think is not the best idea ) then you need to find the offspring of those foals out of mares build like your own. They don’t have to be draft crosses, though finding at least a few of those would be a bonus. But they DO need to have the hind end conformation your mare has, so you can see how much, if at all, this stallion improved that.

[D_BaldStockings]

When a person comes on the breeding forum with a Clyde x TB mare that does not canter, the person provides no pedigree or registry information nor work/accomplishment history and puts forward ‘she’s pretty and has a great temperament’ as the criteria for breeding…

You are going to get negative from me.

I did find other posts from you where the mare went BN and N Eventing as a 4 yr old?

And had unspecified back problem and now hock arthritis. She is now 6? Or going to be in Spring?

And has she a pedigree?

If you have to breed her, your only hope is probably a TB.
Here, perhaps they will be willing to help you get a foal from your mare.
This is the type I would suggest: racing sound is a ‘heck’ of a lot sounder than showing sound.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/135093/sir-shackleton
http://midatlantictb.com/cms/index.php/news/324-sir-shackleton-returns-to-dana-point-farm
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy108/casey0lee/sirshackleton.jpg

P.S. Sorry he is chestnut, color comes last.

I still think you should treat her as a gelding: what would you do then?

[jsydney5]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8424118]
When a person comes on the breeding forum with a Clyde x TB mare that does not canter, the person provides no pedigree or registry information nor work/accomplishment history and puts forward ‘she’s pretty and has a great temperament’ as the criteria for breeding…

You are going to get negative from me.

I did find other posts from you where the mare went BN and N Eventing as a 4 yr old?

And had unspecified back problem and now hock arthritis. She is now 6? Or going to be in Spring?

And has she a pedigree?

If you have to breed her, your only hope is probably a TB.
Here, perhaps they will be willing to help you get a foal from your mare.
This is the type I would suggest: racing sound is a ‘heck’ of a lot sounder than showing sound.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/135093/sir-shackleton
http://midatlantictb.com/cms/index.php/news/324-sir-shackleton-returns-to-dana-point-farm
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy108/casey0lee/sirshackleton.jpg

P.S. Sorry he is chestnut, color comes last.

I still think you should treat her as a gelding: what would you do then?[/QUOTE]

Thank you, I appreciate this tone much better. And thank you for your suggestions for thoroughbreds. Doc knows her complete history, he ultra sounded her ovaries back then and prescribed regumate for her back pain. That fixed the issue. She was hormonal. He still suggests breeding as an option. She will be 7 this spring.

JB- I was confused as well. I cleared it up with him yesterday morning. Breeding just isn’t an exact science, from his perspective. This post unfortunately got off topic, but thank you to those that have made suggestions. I’m still not 100% sure what I’m going to do, given my unique situation, but I would like to be educated on what stallions would be complementary, if I decided to roll the dice.

[JB]

Your situation actually isn’t unique at all

A 7yo with (likely) conformationally-induced arthritis bad enough it affects her canter, with a history of reproductive issues requiring medication to deal with it, and the not small possibility you’d get a good copy of this mare in a filly? The odds are not well-stacked in your favor for breeding an improved-enough foal, unfortunately

[jsydney5]

@JB;8424724

Your situation actually isn’t unique at all

One of the best lameness vets in the country is telling me that breeding this particular mare is fine, but COTH users think it’s obscene to even consider breeding… I’d say that’s pretty unique. Your signature gave me a chuckle too, considering this topic.

[JB]

I meant your situation of a mare who is lame early in life due to a vet saying it’s likely due to her conformation, and who is being considered being bred, and who is a draft cross already, is not a unique situation.

My signature is regarding lameness and illness and disease and the like.

You’re going to do what you’re going to do. If you decide to breed I hope you at least choose a stallion whose offspring are well-conformed, and performing soundly into their double-digit years, and are out of mares built more like yours than not. It won’t help to find the best built and performing stallion whose offspring are well-built and performing well, if they are out of well-conformed mares to start with. That tells you nothing about how the stallion is able to improve anything.

[jsydney5]

[QUOTE=JB;8424858]
I meant your situation of a mare who is lame early in life due to a vet saying it’s likely due to her conformation, and who is being considered being bred, and who is a draft cross already, is not a unique situation.

.[/QUOTE]

If that’s the case, do you mind sharing two or three of the examples where the foals have had issues? I’m genuinely curious, not trying to be a smart ass. I’ve searched, researched, and searched again. Can’t find enough conclusive evidence. Thank you!

added: specifically a horse with mild hock arthritis passing that down to their foals.

[Kerole]

Mild hock arthritis does not prevent a horse from cantering, or from cantering correctly. Surely your mare’s arthritis must be considered more than merely mild?

Also, it is not the early-onset of ‘mild’ arthritis that is the foremost concern here, but the fact that the condition has been bought on by her poor hind limb conformation (as per Dr Riddle’s comment).

Passing on her poor conformation (even when using a stallion with all the traits Dr Riddle has given) is far more of a concern than whether she will pass on early-onset arthritis. All sorts of other problems may come from having poor limb conformation (including crappy gaits), not just arthritis.

Breeding a mare with limb conformation that is so bad it had affected her ability to move correctly, as well as creating a performance career ending condition at an early age, is just not wise. All this without beginning to factor in her weak pedigree.

[drkarins]

OP - Thank you for handling this maturely as the COTH crowd can be rather brutally honest/candid.

Regarding the vet giving a green light (and of course he is a super vet), in my experience the vets rarely have the “first hand experience” that the breeders here on COTH possess. Not to say that the vets give a thumb’s up just to pad their pockets - not that at all. But they are not the ones dealing with the problems, heart break, long days and nights nursing an unhealthy animal. I say this as a clinician (for humans) - my experience with horses has actually made me far more sensitive to that reality of what my patient may have to deal with. Hope this makes some sense!

Perhaps the reason you are getting some negative feedback is that the people on this forum have seen heart break and bad outcomes of all flavors and colors. I am a “newbie” to breeding but the experience has both profoundly humbled me and also proven that dreams do come true. But it is VERY expensive, and not “easy” - it is a long, long road at times!

And as your vet (paraphrasing) said, breeding is not an exact science. But that being said, I agree with the advice to stack the deck in your favor with the best mare and best stallion possible if you actually want to breed - or play it a bit safer and invest in a young one. You will have money left over to be sure your mare has a safe haven for the rest of her life as if she is only 6/7 years young with arthritis, she will need a person to look out for her potentially for a long time at significant expense. Someone once told me of hobby breeding that if you want to breed a flawed mare because you love her, be sure you have a foal that would always have a home in case something happened to you…

My post is meant to be supportive and thoughtful, as it is not an easy decision you have.

[Foxtrot_s]

I’ll chime in again because I totally hear the OP’s POV.

I bred my mare, only to find out years later that she had developed hock arthritis.
The off spring have very active hocks and no arthritis so far and canter like an air cushion ride.

However, the whole episode of breeding three generations was costly for us who have not got the big bucks to spend. Yet, with the results I would never change a thing.

There were the vet inspections, the AI that did not work first time, so had to be done again, and again, with more of those vet inspections. Then the foals - hernia,
a rare gravel on the coffin bone surgery, and more. Then the accompanying
vet/feed/teeth/worming/shots that need to be done until the baby is three years old. Mine went up to a ranch for their weaning and young years to grow up and play…and so on. If I had added it up all beforehand I am sure we would have a nice pension plan by now…but it comes out in bits and pieces, bit by bit, so we afforded it.

So - now you are thoroughly scared off, perhaps find (as suggested) a lease brood mare with gorgeous bloodlines???

Then I go back to thinking that all pregnancies are a speculative pursuit. No mare is perfect and the stallion cannot do it all.

I wish you luck and satisfaction whatever direction you go and wait the “I told you so” post in a year or two!

[KellyS]

Someone said early on that unless you are happy with getting a carbon copy of your mare, your shouldn’t breed her. I think that’s one of the best statements on this whole thread!

I have a 7-year-old pony that I absolutely adore. He’s wicked smart and very athletic. I purchased him from his breeder as a foal, and she was very up front with me that his neck was a bit short, which was unexpected but most likely came from his dam. As a yearling and 2-year-old, I did want to hide him behind the barn, but as he turned 3, his body parts started coming together and he’s turned out to be nicely put together.

HOWEVER, despite how much I love him and how awesome I think he is, I would not repeat that same cross. Instead, the breeder and I worked with the stallion owner and bred a half brother to my pony. The half brother is by the same stallion but out of a different thoroughbred mare from the breeder’s farm ~ one that throws babies with a super necks and a bit quieter personality. The resulting cross is simply amazing–in conformation, movement, and personality–and, at 7 months old, now up at the farm with us.

The point of my story? Breed the very best to the very best. If the mare has qualities you don’t want passed along to her offspring, DON’T bred her. If you want a young one to bring along, you can purchase a foal that is already on the ground and know what you are getting. Or, do as I did the second time, and orchestrate a cross that has a very high chance of being a success.

Breeding is not for the faint of heart…I have learned so much since I purchased my pony as a weanling and have had the opportunity to work with two breeders who really know what they are doing and consistently produce super ponies. They never start with a stallion or mare that has any qualities they aren’t prepared to see in their offspring.

[JB]

[QUOTE=jsydney5;8424865]
If that’s the case, do you mind sharing two or three of the examples where the foals have had issues? I’m genuinely curious, not trying to be a smart ass. I’ve searched, researched, and searched again. Can’t find enough conclusive evidence. Thank you!

added: specifically a horse with mild hock arthritis passing that down to their foals.[/QUOTE]
Not really

But it’s a proven fact that certain conformation traits lead to the (earlier) development of certain things.

Small feet and/or upright pasterns - not uncommon in the halter-bred QH world - are directly linked to the increased development of navicular issues.

Straight(er) hocks are directly related to the (earlier) development of hock arthritis and the breakdown of the suspensory ligaments.

Straight(er) stifles are directly related to the (potential) development of locking stifle issues, which leads to the potential for arthritis in the stifle down the road.

Long sloped pasterns are directly related to an increased risk in tendon/ligament injuries.

It’s just a function of how the horse works.

When those conformations are passed to the foals, they too have those increased risks. That’s how breeding works.

That’s different from a well-conformed horse having a genetic problem with early-onset juvenile arthritis - whole 'nother ball of wax

If you will be happy with the not-insignificant odds of having a duplicate of your mare, conformation and all, early arthritis and all, then go for it.

[out_west]

One other comment. Several people have stated only breed if you would be happy with a copy of your mare. You may not even get that. I had a lovely mare, very highly rated during her mare inspection. I bred her twice and neither foal was in any way as good as the dam. She was one of the nicer foals out of both of her parents, but didn’t pass it along. There are a lot of good mares out there that you could get inexpensively, or lease to breed for a year. There are a lot of reasonably priced NICE foals out there. There are a LOT of horses that are poorly bred and unwanted. Don’t breed unless you are willing and prepared to keep the offspring for the rest of its life, no matter what you get.

[FatCatFarm]

And something else to consider, hind leg issues are one of the hardest things to “fix” through breeding and I have first hand experience. I bred a big, lovely, and very sweet mare years ago for two gorgeous foals from two totally different stallions, but both had her hind limb conformation, if to a lesser degree, making canter and collection something of an issue and struggle for them both. I did not keep nor breed the mare further.

I know you love your mare, but I just wouldn’t. Sorry.

[JB]

[QUOTE=out west;8427116]
One other comment. Several people have stated only breed if you would be happy with a copy of your mare. You may not even get that. I had a lovely mare, very highly rated during her mare inspection. I bred her twice and neither foal was in any way as good as the dam. She was one of the nicer foals out of both of her parents, but didn’t pass it along. [/QUOTE]
This is especially a risk when breeding for a riding/sporthorse type, when the dam is half draft. There’s a real art to breeding F1 draft x light crosses to begin with, and maybe an even bigger art to breeding the F2 individual. It’s really easy for draft traits to come through even more than what’s in the dam.