Improving the draft cross mare's canter with a warmblood or tb stallion. Any advice?

[jsydney5]

[QUOTE=JB;8427254]
This is especially a risk when breeding for a riding/sporthorse type, when the dam is half draft. There’s a real art to breeding F1 draft x light crosses to begin with, and maybe an even bigger art to breeding the F2 individual. It’s really easy for draft traits to come through even more than what’s in the dam.[/QUOTE]

I would still like to see examples of these foals, rather than just refer to these circumstances “in theory.”

Edit: examples meaning, horses bred that inherit arthritis in their hind end. If it’s so common, surely there must be examples.

[Scaramouch]

[QUOTE=jsydney5;8427435]
I would still like to see examples of these foals, rather than just refer to these circumstances “in theory.”

Edit: examples meaning, horses bred that inherit arthritis in their hind end. If it’s so common, surely there must be examples.[/QUOTE]

Try craigslist. People willfully flouting conventional wisdom - aka common sense - and breeding horses with such severe conformational defects that they’re unsound at the age of 5-6 aren’t bragging about it on COTH.

[JB]

It’s not the arthritis they inherit.

It’s the conformation that increases the odds of developing X injury.

It’s simply physiology and physics.

CL is a great place to look. Conformational trainwreck mares producing conformational trainwreck foals who are destined to break down with any real athletic endeavors.

This isn’t “your mare is going to pass on her arthritis”. It’s "your mare is likely to pass on the hind end conformation which your vet has said is at least one cause of her young age arthritis. If her foal gets that conformation, what do you think is going to happen to him? Overcome the odds and be sound as a dollar when he’s 20? Sure, it’s possible, but it’s the least likely scenario.

Breed a mare with club feet who has pastern arthritis because her pasterns are too upright as a result, and if/when her foal gets her club feet, do you think his feet and legs are magically going to be better than hers?

Breed a post-legged halter QH who can’t be ridden because she’s lame as a direct result of hind legs that have zero shock absorption, and the foal gets post legs - is the foal going to magically not have problems?

[jsydney5]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;8427466]
Try craigslist. People willfully flouting conventional wisdom - aka common sense - and breeding horses with such severe conformational defects that they’re unsound at the age of 5-6 aren’t bragging about it on COTH.[/QUOTE]

Your sarcasm isn’t necessary. Don’t troll. My point is that if it’s truly as prevalent as COTH deems it is, there should be reference examples. Please, prove Dr. Riddle wrong, and I can close the book and move on and “pretend the horse is a gelding.” No need for us to be nasty about this. If I’m doing my due diligence on the subject and taking advice on COTH, rather than my vet, I’d appreciate some examples from those that say they’ve seen horses with early onset arthritis pass down their arthritis to foals. That’s all.

[Come_Shine]

When I google genetic heritability of juvenile equine osteoarthritis, there are many research articles that discuss horses with early onset arthritis being passed to foals.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=jsydney5;8418692]
I really appreciate you taking the time to check out the mare’s history to give an honest reply. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve thought about the foal having canter problems too. Dr Riddle diagnosed this mare with arthritis in her hocks, which is why she’s been hurting in the canter. Is the arthritis genetic? I don’t know. Do i want to breed another potential problem? Definitely not. But the only other “job” for this horse, is to be a pasture ornament. A very, very beautiful pasture ornament. I consulted Dr Riddle to get his thoughts, and he said he had no problem with me breeding the mare. He said her arthritis is most likely a conformational flaw, and with big draft crosses, they tend to develop arthritis earlier in life than lighter breeds. He advised me to choose a stallion with angular hind limbs that has a lengthy, proven show record (to demonstrate they are sound).

This is information coming from my vet, a very well respected vet. Do I think he could be wrong? Maybe. I’ve done research on arthritis being inherited in foals, and there wasn’t enough evidence to be conclusive. My vet was supportive of breeding this particular mare, so I think exploring the possibility of breeding her isn’t a terrible thing.

But i think you ARE right, that I could save a lot of money and buy myself a very nice baby! I may do that. In the mean time, I’d like to educate myself and feel like I’ve considered all of the options.[/QUOTE]

There is no reason to prove your vet ‘wrong’. He said the mare likely had a conformational flaw and he said she COULD be bred.

He also said big draft crosses tend to develop arthritis earlier … which is the sort of horse you have and work with.

You say you don’t want to breed a potential problem. But you don’t want just a pasture ornament.

In short you want to breed this mare. Several breeders have said this might be unwise - or very unwise.

Many registries will not approve stallions with poor radiographs, there are breeders who will tell you that certain lines are known for higher incidence of problems in the youngsters.
Correlation is not causation, but correlation alone is enough to make people choosy about spending their cash to breed from horses with joint problems.

In dogs, humans, etc. there is a higher incidence of paired osteoarthritis in identical twins where one develops it, the other is likely to. People say it ‘runs in families’
http://www.arthrolink.com/en/osteoarthritis-folders/all-folders/genetics-and-osteoarthritis-0

There is plenty of evidence if you choose to subscribe to veterinary and medical scholarly publications.

Developing Osteoarthritis at such a young age is a real problem: either your horse is basically weak - and broke. Or your management was not suited to this horse and you broke it. Square peg, round hole analogy.

Either way, breeding from this horse for a ‘keeper foal’ for you to raise and compete is not likely to work.

This is your first mare.
Personally I would not breed her.

Unless you have deep pockets an access to pasture and some other foals, I would not recommend becoming a breeder at all.
Think how many horses you look at and pass on before buying one; now realize that a breeding with outcross pedigree of a type-crossed mare is like throwing darts at a dartboard blindfolded: You could get a bullseye, but you are just as likely to miss the board entirely and put a hole in the wall that will need repair.

Buying, training, selling are much more likely to be manageable; problem foals are heartbreaking.

[Kerole]

Not to appear rude, but why are you so hell bent on seeing evidence of hock arthritis being passed to offspring?

It has been pointed out that passing on her arthritis is not the worry here.

Her poor conformation is the problem you should be focusing on. A foal with your mare’s poor hind limbs may not get early onset arthritis. It may instead, suffer from all sorts of other issues including those that will prevent the horse from moving well, performing well, and staying sound.

It is not just about the arthritis.

[Come_Shine]

I think the OP is requesting information about the genetic transmission of arthritis as she feels choosing the right stallion will overcome the conformational flaws that contributed to the arthritis. Perhaps reading some research papers which show the genetic predisposition to passing this disabling condition along will be helpful in considering her decision to breed or, at least, planning for the probable outcome of homing another horse that has similar issues as its dam.

[Scaramouch]

[QUOTE=jsydney5;8427510]
Your sarcasm isn’t necessary. Don’t troll. My point is that if it’s truly as prevalent as COTH deems it is, there should be reference examples. Please, prove Dr. Riddle wrong, and I can close the book and move on and “pretend the horse is a gelding.” No need for us to be nasty about this. If I’m doing my due diligence on the subject and taking advice on COTH, rather than my vet, I’d appreciate some examples from those that say they’ve seen horses with early onset arthritis pass down their arthritis to foals. That’s all.[/QUOTE]

How many times has the point been clarified that it isn’t the arthritis itself that you should worry about your mare passing on?

Your demand for “examples” is the equivalent of asking why you shouldn’t drink and drive when it’s entirely possible that you’ll make it home unscathed. Maybe no one immediately available personally knows of a case where a drunk driver a) got caught or b) killed someone, but that doesn’t mean you can’t find innumerable studies on alcohol impairment (er… heritability of hindlimb conformation) indicating that it’s a bad idea.

It’s impossible to “prove your vet wrong” as long as there are cases where a stallion did improve upon the mare’s hind legs. Which, of course, there are. There are many more where the offspring inherit the mare’s weak points. It’s an enormous (5-6 figures over the lifespan of a potentially useless foal) gamble - and it’s your right to take it if you want but you seem convinced that the right stallion is guaranteed to “fix” your mare and it just isn’t so.

(and was I just accused of trolling by someone who came to a serious sport horse breeders’ forum wanting to breed a mare of indeterminate pedigree and performance because she’s too lame, at the age of 7, to do much else? Oh the irony.)

[Ready_To_Riot]

As someone who struggles daily with the thought of breeding my mare (who I actually do want a carbon copy of!), I can understand why you WANT to breed your girl. But for the love of god don’t. There is a very slim chance you’re going to get a half decent horse. People have given you tons of reasons and examples and to be perfectly honest, I don’t think your vet is encouraging you to breed. I think you are taking what he said “yes. She physically can be bred. Yes, you could find a stallion that will assist in fixing her conformational flaws” but I don’t think he ever told you “yes. You should absolutely breed this mare”. I half way want to call him up and ask, because if he is encouraging you to breed a mare that has such bad confirmation that she is lame at 6, I question his morals, ethics, and his knowledge.