In which draw reins are beneficial

[ClassAction]

Let me preface this by saying two things: one, that I have always approached draw reins with trepidation as I’ve seen them used badly too many times and two, that I’m posting this with trepidation as I don’t want to pour gasoline on what seems like a hot and contentious argument already. I’m also terribly interested in suggestions for improving his canter.

BUT

I’ve been riding this Mustang fellow for about six months now. He’s a really interesting ride. We’ve gotten the walk and trot to the point where he is going forward in a steady(er) manner. He is reaching out for contact between 60-70% of the time. The real bear of a problem is the canter! He takes such leg to get and keep him there that you really can’t help him canter better because all your attention is going to keeping leg on, keeping him forward. He has this almost pace-y canter which isn’t even a four-beat but his two inside legs move together. totally weird.

Anyway, last night I was having a lesson on him and the instructor suggested draw reins. I don’t think he’d ever had them on before. So we started out nice and slow, walked around gradually increasing contact with the draw rein. Then at the trot we did the same thing. And he got it! After a while the draw rein could go a little bit slack and he’d just bump up against it if he went totally inverted.

The canter was really interesting though. It is nearly impossible to keep him going in the canter and then have the energy to divert to improving the canter. With the draw reins, I actually got him to bend at the canter. He went from his pacey-canter to a four beat! Improvement! That, I think, will be the only time I’m glad to have a four beat canter!

[Petstorejunkie]

I know that this is really potentially throwing yourself to the wolves, but I would LOVE LOVE LOVE a video of you using draw reins correctly. Perhaps if there is more exposure of their proper use, they wont get misused so much.

[sdlbredfan]

I would have guessed they would make it worse because the 'He takes such leg to get and keep him there ’ implied to me that he was not feeling enough freedom from rein to move forward. As WAZ is fond of saying ‘open the door’ if you want the horse to go forward.

[ClassAction]

[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;4601408]
I would have guessed they would make it worse because the 'He takes such leg to get and keep him there ’ implied to me that he was not feeling enough freedom from rein to move forward. As WAZ is fond of saying ‘open the door’ if you want the horse to go forward.[/QUOTE]

Normally yeah! I would say that until you’ve clearly established a willing “go” button draw reins would be totally backwards. He’s got enough walk and trot that I feel comfortable adding the draw reins to that. With the canter, you can get him forward with TONS of leg but then once you’re forward to can’t do anything else. Until he gets rid of the pacey canter I don’t think he will be able to go really forward (round about as it sounds) because he’s so totally stuck in his body.

Once we achieved four-beating last night he felt more relaxed like it wasn’t a mad scramble anymore. I think he just needs some really clear guidelines and boundaries to feel comfortable. Hence the draw reins which say “bend! No really! I mean it!” and he bent his body.

This horse has such a weird history. He was on the range, totally self-sufficient until he was five. He’s now 11ish and he’s just now getting shown how he’s supposed to carry his body when under saddle.

[rileyt]

[QUOTE=ClassAction;4601570]

Once we achieved four-beating last night he felt more relaxed like it wasn’t a mad scramble anymore. [/QUOTE]

Class - please tell me you mean three-beating. The canter has three beats… or at least it should…

[ClassAction]

[QUOTE=rileyt;4601641]
Class - please tell me you mean three-beating. The canter has three beats… or at least it should…[/QUOTE]

Horrifically, no, I do mean “achieved four beating”. This horse has managed to develop something worse than four beating which feels and looks like a pacey canter. It’s like being stuck on a pogo stick with no bend at all. I’ve never seen or ridden a canter like this.

[rileyt]

Class - I hate to be the sour grapes… but I’m going to come out and say it:

This does not sound like a “beneficial” use of draw reins. The horse is too green and weak.

I don’t doubt for a minute that it felt better to you. But I strongly doubt that it was really better for him. There are way too many basics missing here…

[Foxtrot_s]

Look - not everybody is interested in achieving GP on an international horse - the OP is under insutruction, has a horse who is stiff and whose gaits are not the best. If she uses drawreins, in an educated and soft manner and is aware of the drawBACKS of them, who can argue with her desire to use an extra (temporary) aid to make improvement happen? Almost everybody who does not post here uses shortcuts of some description.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=ClassAction;4601654]
Horrifically, no, I do mean “achieved four beating”. This horse has managed to develop something worse than four beating which feels and looks like a pacey canter. It’s like being stuck on a pogo stick with no bend at all. I’ve never seen or ridden a canter this disorganized and flailing.[/QUOTE]

if i was teaching you i would ditch the draw reins
a canter is three beat and not 4 so christ knows what your trianers telling you
and sound like your working the horse in to a false frame some trainers as i have gathered on here dont actually know anything and after a quick fix so let me tell you and warn you in the wrong hands ie novice like you its potential dangerous to use draw reins

lets see tell me the difference form the reins ie which one is a direct rein if one doesnt know the answer then dont use them you will and can end up flipping th horse over backwards

now if your trianer cant explain and show how to do the half halt stride then ditch the trianer

you want round and more forwards then you need to work the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw by lengthening and shortening your strides using the half halt stride in everysingle transition and by using a secure leg independant seat and soft quiet hands
look here and read all off page 1 and all links in my helpful links pages

http://chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178116

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;4601743]
Look - not everybody is interested in achieving GP on an international horse - the OP is under insutruction, has a horse who is stiff and whose gaits are not the best. If she uses drawreins, in an educated and soft manner and is aware of the drawBACKS of them, who can argue with her desire to use an extra (temporary) aid to make improvement happen? Almost everybody who does not post here uses shortcuts of some description.[/QUOTE]

i hear that, but if the horse is stiff then the rider needs to look at themselves ie position, hands , and body if one isnt sitting in the saddle centrally then they are going to be riding odd in turn wil make ahorse stiff on one side
or if they are stronger on the right than they are on the left then agin the horse will be stiff or avassive on the opposite side so one has to give as in the rider must give on the side they strongest on so the hrose is even

sometimes horses are stiff as you say or more one sided than the other again its dwon to work and working the horse evenly on both sides of his body

also if the saddle is crap- as so many people on here buy tack of ebay and expect it to fit the horse and when its slips or isnt quite right they then buy a pad so the horse is working in ill fitting tack that also goes for the bridle when its ill fitting as hasnt been fitted correctly can also be the bit

can again aslo be the rider if one leans into the bridle area then they are supporting there bodyweeight via the horse head - and guess what happens the horse is stiff as it not being used in the correct manner so will complain

so many reasons why a horse is stiff or advassive on oen side and lot of it down to rider error ---- as people arnt honest with themselves and are quick the blame the horse and when he complains they say hes a git but hes only learnt by those that tuaght him to be a git becuase he was in discomfort
and then poor sod is pushed from pillar to post and his future is dim
all becuase a person/rider dont look at them selves and what they are doing as what you do effects the way of going in ahorse

[rileyt]

Foxtrot - I disagree completely.

First, you assume that everyone here uses “shortcuts”. I have no idea if this is true or not, but I can tell you I certainly don’t. (Or at least I don’t THINK I do).

Second, your post seems to assume that drawreins and their potential pitfalls only matter to people making GP or International horses. I don’t think that is true at all. The pitfalls of a horse (incorrectly) trained in drawreins can catch up to you at Training Level. And, even assuming you’re not interested in showing, I think all of us are interested in doing “correct” dressage… right?

If all we wanted was a bunch of horses with their heads pulled to their chests, we could just get a really short standing martingale… right?

I’m really not trying to pick on ClassAction, who may be a great rider… but the fact that she’s under instructions means nothing to me (having seen more than my share of really scary instructors out there). Likewise, the fact that she thinks there is improvement could be evidence of a) improvement… or b) a novice using draw reins who “thinks” things are better because the horse becomes easier to ride… when in fact, things are not better at all. Based on what she’s written, its hard to tell if this is really just a completely remedial horse such that a four-beat canter in draw reins is actually “improvement”… or whether its just a poorly trained, weak, unbalanced horse who is getting pulled into a frame. The fact that Class conceptually knows not to ride front to back is far different from really KNOWING whether you’re doing it or not. I get really nervous when I hear things about four beat canters, a not thoroughly installed “go” button, stiffness, and then magical “bending through the body” once the draw reins are on.

Again, really not trying to pick or be “holier than thou”. Just trying to keep yet another (potential) novice from ruining her horse with draw reins. (And, for the record, I don’t believe drawreins are the devil… but I do believe they are a razor in a monkey’s hands).

[shawnee_Acres]

I am not even going to discuss the drawreins BUT I am going to say that you DO NOT EVER WANT a four beat canter! In ANY discipline. Your horse sounds like he paces at the canter which is nearly two beat so what you are trying to achieve is THREE beat. If your trainer tells you otehrwise then please get a new trainer! I would suggest woring this horse PROPERLY on the lungeline with sidereins to develop his canter without a rider.

[Petstorejunkie]

A total aside to she subject in the OP.
If he’s trying to bunny hop his two hind legs together at the canter, I’d be having his stifles looked at.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=rileyt;4601862]
Foxtrot - I disagree completely.

First, you assume that everyone here uses “shortcuts”. I have no idea if this is true or not, but I can tell you I certainly don’t. (Or at least I don’t THINK I do).

Second, your post seems to assume that drawreins and their potential pitfalls only matter to people making GP or International horses. I don’t think that is true at all. The pitfalls of a horse (incorrectly) trained in drawreins can catch up to you at Training Level. And, even assuming you’re not interested in showing, I think all of us are interested in doing “correct” dressage… right?

If all we wanted was a bunch of horses with their heads pulled to their chests, we could just get a really short standing martingale… right?

I’m really not trying to pick on ClassAction, who may be a great rider… but the fact that she’s under instructions means nothing to me (having seen more than my share of really scary instructors out there). Likewise, the fact that she thinks there is improvement could be evidence of a) improvement… or b) a novice using draw reins who “thinks” things are better because the horse becomes easier to ride… when in fact, things are not better at all. Based on what she’s written, its hard to tell if this is really just a completely remedial horse such that a four-beat canter in draw reins is actually “improvement”… or whether its just a poorly trained, weak, unbalanced horse who is getting pulled into a frame. The fact that Class conceptually knows not to ride front to back is far different from really KNOWING whether you’re doing it or not. I get really nervous when I hear things about four beat canters, a not thoroughly installed “go” button, stiffness, and then magical “bending through the body” once the draw reins are on.

Again, really not trying to pick or be “holier than thou”. Just trying to keep yet another (potential) novice from ruining her horse with draw reins. (And, for the record, I don’t believe drawreins are the devil… but I do believe they are a razor in a monkey’s hands).[/QUOTE]

arh a person who on the same page as myself
and one whos not jsut thinking of the rider but also the horse
op listen and learn matey you have paid xyz for this horse i pressume so you want the best you can afford from assited help look on any site or society connected to the fei as they all have accredited trainers even the 4h does

my point - tkae what i said as fact- if the trianer cant show you how to use the half halt stride or explain what it does then ditch the trianer they arnt worth your money

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Petstorejunkie;4601882]
A total aside to she subject in the OP.
If he’s trying to bunny hop his two hind legs together at the canter, I’d be having his stifles looked at.[/QUOTE]

arh not nessacarily true - to many people do that willy nilly in usa here in uk its rare

bunny hops front or back legs are an advasion to the bit and hand
thinka bout it if ones working the horse front to back which is what shes saying then the horse is working in harsh false frame now an advasive bunny hop from hinds is to much pressure on the poll, as the horse cant balance and get his hock underneath him, now this is when it can become dangerous as the horse trys to and the rider obviously being heavy in the hand then there no alternative but backwards flip

[ClassAction]

Interesting responses. First off, yes, the canter should be a three beat. This horse is just having a tough time putting the pieces together.

RileyT: I appreciate your concerns but this seems like the only way to get it through this horse’s brain that he CAN bend, even at the canter. I was so thrilled to get such a distinct improvement in the canter rhythm and quality even for just a short side.

I hope to use them once more (max twice more) to get the point home and then not use them ever again. He’s a big thinker of a horse (you can almost see him thinking things through) so I’m hoping the draw reins help him get the concept of bending and being softer so that we can then progress without them. It’s not my ideal method but they are a very helpful tool in this case.

PSJ: that’s a really good point about his stifles. I wouldn’t have thought of that! I’ll pass it along to his owner. It really is the most bizarre hoppity thing in the canter.

Edited for clarity.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=ClassAction;4601923]
Interesting responses. First off, yes, the canter should be a three beat.
urm - so what your four beat pace - a four beat is walk

This horse is just having a tough time putting the pieces together.

no you are – he now i understand isnt your horse but you have lesson on him
i hope for yoursake you have asked the owner if you can use drawreins on him as if it was any horse i was using teaching or breaking in or re schooling whatever then the answer is no no no no

plus be aware your the one on top using them if however as your descirbing your pulling the horse round into a false HARSH FRAME and you have any kind of accident whilse in your care your liable which might mean losing your home if your not insured doesnt always come back on the trianer as they miight be visting ones so i would check your contract of what you can and cannot do with the horse if its not stated then you need permission to ad any extra tack etc

It doesn’t help that I ride him maybe twice a week
does matter as you could be putting all the owners work right out the window and any issues might have been cause by the way your riding said horse

and his owner schools in a ring maybe once a week more and the rest of the time he sits around or just slouches around the trails.

her horse she can do as she pleases

I think that the goals for this horse are just to get him more rideable but nothing fancy.

then do it in the correct manner and a polite manner then guest what you might find the horse will do it with ease

RileyT: I appreciate your concerns but this seems like the only way to get it through this horse’s brain that he CAN bend, even at the canter. I was so thrilled to get such a distinct improvement in the canter rhythm and quality even for just a short side.

the horse is 11yrs old so i doubt very much its the horse like i said to many balme the horse with out being honest with them selves
to me your a novice be all and end all
and before you go off in to one ---- the proof is in the questions being asked then the answers being given

I hope to use them once more (max twice more) to get the point home and then not use them ever again. He’s a big thinker of a horse (you can almost see him thinking things through) so I’m hoping the draw reins help him get the concept of bending and being softer so that we can then progress without them. It’s not my ideal method but they are a very helpful tool in this case.

dont------- this is not your horse
you lack expreince and dont know how to use your legs seat and hands
and your trianer is doing a quick fix and your paying for rubbish to be taught but its not you whos suffering its the horse well it is you as you not getting a proper education of how to ride a horse and to work the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw
kind hands make a good horse

PSJ: that’s a really good point about his stifles. I wouldn’t have thought of that! I’ll pass it along to his owner. It really is the most bizarre hoppity thing in the canter.[/QUOTE]

not his stiffles or hocks - its you - so look at what your doing wrong before you ruin the horse which doesnt actually belong to you

[Zevida]

Sounds like this is a horse that needs a lot of work on the longe, not a horse that needs draw reins.

On the longe you’ll be able to teach and instill the forward with much better regularity. He will learn that he can canter and bend and go forward without having to deal with a rider. And as he gains more strength in the canter on the longe, that will eventually carry over into the under saddle work.

You’re going to have a pretty difficult time considering multiple riders who perhaps don’t all have the same goals or abilities. But I would definitely ditch the draw reins.

eta: To address the title of this thread, of course draw reins are beneficial! If they weren’t, no one would use them. The key is if they are beneficial in improving the horse’s training from a correctness standpoint. More often than not, it is not the case. So while you might see some improvement in one area due to the draw reins, are they truly gymnasticizing the horse?

[buck22]

[QUOTE=ClassAction;4601923]
Interesting responses. First off, yes, the canter should be a three beat. This horse is just having a tough time putting the pieces together.[/QUOTE]
but you’re not doing him any favors at all by riding him incorrectly. My morgan used to crossfire at the canter when he was panicked, I stop it as quickly as it starts as at the very least that would be building bad muscle memory, etc.

I forget who said it, but, don’t practice mistakes!

I appreciate your concerns but this seems like the only way to get it through this horse’s brain that he CAN bend,

imho, you have bigger problems than bending. horses can canter around just fine stargazing, its far from ideal but you don’t need bend for a lope. a lope is never 4 beats, and if the horse gives a 4 beat lope its likely because he’s in pain someplace.

as suggested above, I would be working this horse on the longe, side reins when appropriate, zevida’s post is excellent , and get the horse cantering on his own, finding his own balance first, before asking him to pack around a rider as well.

the longer you allow him to do this 4 beated way of going, the longer its going to take to corrected it down the road. nip it in the bud now.

PSJ: that’s a really good point about his stifles. I wouldn’t have thought of that! I’ll pass it along to his owner. It really is the most bizarre hoppity thing in the canter.

as a owner of a mustang with stifle issues, yes bunny hopping is a stifle thing.

your description is making me imagine a horse that is intensely uncomfortable. I’d start fresh from the ground, there is always time for drawreins down the road.

eta, re the op, I agree with zevida, and though I’ve never used them myself a friend of mine whom I respect a good deal has used them in the past, attached to the side of the girth, not between teh front legs, she can just have them appear at the moment she needs them.

[shygirl]

Does this horse canter on the longe line? I’m trying to picture the “canter” you describe - sounds interesting!