Draw reins are evil
Draw reins are merely exchanging one problem for another.
Your horse has to be straight before he can bend. He is cantering correctly because he is crooked.
[QUOTE=shygirl;4602058]
Does this horse canter on the longe line? I’m trying to picture the “canter” you describe - sounds interesting![/QUOTE]
I think he longes but I’m not 100%. His canter is tough to describe. When the assistant trainer rode him she just laughed at the canter he has because it is so odd. He motorcyles around turns. The actual stride would be a four beat canter if he weren’t for the hopping thing he does behind that makes it an even worse three-ish beat canter.
With the draw reins I got about four strides (or one long side) that was a “better” four-beat canter. I still can’t believe that the four beat is an improvement but there we go. Once he got there his whole body relaxed a bit. Lots of “good boy” there. Then I asked him to trot and he got so many pats and praises!
[QUOTE=Gracie;4602077]
Draw reins are evil. [/QUOTE]
I beg to differ. Draw reins are a tool. They can be used well or very very poorly. They can help a horse grasp a concept or lock him in a painful box.
There are many tools available to riders. Spurs, whips, lunge lines, side reins, martingales, and yes - Draw Reins. The key is understanding how they function and if properly applied can assist in moving the training process forward. However, all of these tools can be use inappropriately and be detrimental to the horse confidence and balance. It sounds as though you suceeded in getting a slightly improved response, but still far from where you would like to be. The forwardness is really the basis of your problem.
Your horse sounds like a few older horses with very little training that I have ridden. They usually packed around trail riders or had very poor basics. Even though walk and trot might be adequate, in the canter all deficiencies were magnefied 10x. And they can be very interesting. Most times the answer lies in building strength. Outside canter/gallop work in a large field and on hills is usually the best remedy. It allows the horse the visual freedom to move out creating the energy needed to develop rythym (even if it is a bit fast and heavy). Once the horse is confident that it can move forward, you will be able to engage this in an enclosed space (ring). Next I would work trot and canter poles or small cross rails. I’m sure you will be surprised that your uncoordinated mount begins to carry a few good strides after the cross rail. Again, something that you can build upon, but once it starts the improvement is quick and you achieve that elusive 3 beat canter.
[QUOTE=ClassAction;4602102]
I beg to differ. Draw reins are a tool. They can be used well or very very poorly. They can help a horse grasp a concept or lock him in a painful box.[/QUOTE]
then if you know that why use them on this horse
gracie said -the correct thing- you cant ask for any bend until you have forwards and striaght and that horse is using himself properly
the correct manner would be to as to lengthen and shorten his strides using the full width and lenght of the areana to help you and using the half halt stride
however the horses ahsnt been tuaght that, one can look on my helpful links pages for an explaination of how to do the half halt stride
then on would use the half halt stride in every single transition always when starting a horse off you do it in walk — that any new movement you master it in wlak as we are talking about the half halt stride you would 1st practice walk to halt ie walk a fe paces half halt to halt there no where to go but stop
once you mastered the walk into downwards transition you can then work on all the wlak paces ie free walk medium walk and extended walk using the half halt stride in both down gears and up gears once mastered you introduce a trot pace ie working, or medium then later the extended once you have mastered all those both up and down gears then you can ask for canter and counter canter
always work the horse in any on these in large ie go large around the areana as this helps balance the horse by using the lenght and width of the school for guidance of shortening and lengthening your paces the horse learns to use himself and get his hinds underneath him
this working the horse from but to poll to a relaxed yaw - and is the basic foundation of any equine dispiline
the half halt stride informs the horse something going to change ie from a collected pace to a faster pace and visa versa
using the half halt stride in all triansitions also helps to keep the off the forehand,
and you as a rider ride with an independant seat, secure light leg and soft quiet hands
but as there is a but as fro what your saying - you are heavy in the hand and your supporting your body weight into the bridle area so horse is uncomfable so the trianer is using a quick fix method to correct your seat
which as previous poster said you far better to work the horse on the lunge and to get an independant seat i would be working you with no stirrups
also check your stirrup lenght as that can effect your position which again an explaination is on my helpful links pages
once you realise its you then you can move forwards and advance perhaps to other basic movements as you said nothing fancy
be honest – its you so look at you,
old saying where you look your hands will follow where your hands go the horse will follow through
once you have mastered all the above then you can try 20mtr circles etc but at this moment in time would be unfair fo you to ask the horse to perform those as hes croacked and disunited hence the 4 beat canter
at no time have i surgested drew reins - this is basic foundation work which any good decent trianer should know if they dont
then pass them by they will riun any horse and long term take my word will cause problems as i re hab and re trian and re school horses off people that do just that and i can say hand on heart its not a quick fix horses that have been spoilt like that can take years to get right
This (the OP’s scenario) is not what you use drawreins for. It’s what you use a whip for.
[QUOTE=ClassAction;4601654]
Horrifically, no, I do mean “achieved four beating”. This horse has managed to develop something worse than four beating which feels and looks like a pacey canter. It’s like being stuck on a pogo stick with no bend at all. I’ve never seen or ridden a canter this disorganized and flailing.[/QUOTE]
Agree with EqTrainer, dressage whip… not draw reins…
[QUOTE=goeslikestink;4602231]
then if you know that why use them on this horse
gracie said -the correct thing- you cant ask for any bend until you have forwards and striaght and that horse is using himself properly
the correct manner would be to as to lengthen and shorten his strides using the full width and lenght of the areana to help you and using the half halt stride
however the horses ahsnt been tuaght that, one can look on my helpful links pages for an explaination of how to do the half halt stride
then on would use the half halt stride in every single transition always when starting a horse off you do it in walk — that any new movement you master it in wlak as we are talking about the half halt stride you would 1st practice walk to halt ie walk a fe paces half halt to halt there no where to go but stop
once you mastered the walk into downwards transition you can then work on all the wlak paces ie free walk medium walk and extended walk using the half halt stride in both down gears and up gears once mastered you introduce a trot pace ie working, or medium then later the extended once you have mastered all those both up and down gears then you can ask for canter and counter canter
always work the horse in any on these in large ie go large around the areana as this helps balance the horse by using the lenght and width of the school for guidance of shortening and lengthening your paces the horse learns to use himself and get his hinds underneath him
this working the horse from but to poll to a relaxed yaw - and is the basic foundation of any equine dispiline
the half halt stride informs the horse something going to change ie from a collected pace to a faster pace and visa versa
using the half halt stride in all triansitions also helps to keep the off the forehand,
and you as a rider ride with an independant seat, secure light leg and soft quiet hands
but as there is a but as fro what your saying - you are heavy in the hand and your supporting your body weight into the bridle area so horse is uncomfable so the trianer is using a quick fix method to correct your seat
which as previous poster said you far better to work the horse on the lunge and to get an independant seat i would be working you with no stirrups
also check your stirrup lenght as that can effect your position which again an explaination is on my helpful links pages
once you realise its you then you can move forwards and advance perhaps to other basic movements as you said nothing fancy
be honest – its you so look at you,
old saying where you look your hands will follow where your hands go the horse will follow through
once you have mastered all the above then you can try 20mtr circles etc but at this moment in time would be unfair fo you to ask the horse to perform those as hes croacked and disunited hence the 4 beat canter
at no time have i surgested drew reins - this is basic foundation work which any good decent trianer should know if they dont
then pass them by they will riun any horse and long term take my word will cause problems as i re hab and re trian and re school horses off people that do just that and i can say hand on heart its not a quick fix horses that have been spoilt like that can take years to get righ
For GAWD’s sake(notice spelling:) You have not seen the horse and yet you hand out judgement like no one else! I don’t like drawreins and do not use them… I think “some” of your advice is correct…much is presumptuous. Give the OP a break… I second taking a good look at the stifles(us americans are so anal are we not?) My horse was doing the same thing… OCD’s were found… Try alot of bending and strengthening through transitions once the vet has a good look… And don’t “blame” yourself for everything… That is utter B.S. It sounds as if you are a responsible horsewoman and trying to do your best!:yes:
I’d like to know more about your trot and walk without the side reins. Is he straight? Is he light off your leg? How are his walk,trot, walk to reinback transitions. You say he’s calm with you but not his owner. Do you have his lower jaw relaxed and his tongue mobile. He may not be ready to begin canter with a rider. Does he canter on the longe? On both reins? How balanced? So many questions before draw reins…
Good luck.
[QUOTE=smithywess;4602588]
I’d like to know more about your trot and walk without the side reins. Is he straight? Is he light off your leg? How are his walk,trot, walk to reinback transitions. You say he’s calm with you but not his owner. Do you have his lower jaw relaxed and his tongue mobile. He may not be ready to begin canter with a rider. Does he canter on the longe? On both reins? How balanced? So many questions before draw reins…
Good luck.[/QUOTE]
At the walk and trot he’s becoming quite a pleasant ride. Push him forward and he tracks up. Half halt the outside and he’ll stretch into contact. After he’s warmed up in body and mind he’ll stretch down and out and then come back up readily. He leg yields nicely, spirals in and out on a 20m circle. He canters quite willingly in his turnout and on the trail. He gets very excited about cantering on the trail.
Once his brain is in gear, he’s very pleasant. He can take some persuading that yes! he really does want to keep his shoulder in line with the rest of his body and that yes! he can unlock the base of his neck! It’s just this canter in the ring business that’s problematic and not progressing along with the rest of the work.
Petstorejunkie may have something - is the horse sound enough for the work. We had a pony with stifle issues and did the “bunny hop” canter - don’t know if that describes your mustang.
For the record, the horse always comes first with me, and the OP signified that she was using the draw reins judiciously. None of us have seen her, the horse, or her trainer, so most posers are making assumptions. If Riley read my post you would have read that those who use drawreins do not post here…same as those that use cranked nosebands or rollkur. I don’t need to agree.
Totally agree with this.
Why do you think anyone uses draw reins? Because they temporarily cover up problems and make things seem better. But in actuality, they don’t fix anything, and open up a whole new set of problems.
So of course you felt like they helped you, they gave you leverage to hold your unbalanced horse together. But that won’t get you anywhere in the long run. Correct training is the only real answer, no matter how long it takes.
I have heard the moment of suspension described as the 4th beat.
Why do you think anyone uses draw reins? Because they temporarily cover up problems and make things seem better. But in actuality, they don’t fix anything, and open up a whole new set of problems.
Have to disagree with this. In the right hands they can help a horse.
I used draw reins twice on my last horse as his walk/trot work were great (forward/straight) but he just didn’t quite ‘get’ the canter. Used draw reins for literally 10 mins on two seperate occasion horse got what I was asking for and never had a problem after.
To me there is no difference using this tool then my occassionally place the whip against the shoulder to encourage him to lift it up.
Is the "pacey"ness like an untrained Standardbred canter? I have ridden one with that canter (?) and can recall in my mind quite vividly how difficult it was to prevent him from falling into a jarring extended trot. A four beat gait feels MUCH more similar to a canter than that gait.
The problem is that the only thing that draw reins actually teach a horse is to “back off” of the rider’s hand. That leaning on the riders hand and pulling (which is what an out of balanced horse does) causes pain. So they learn not to lean on the hand. But is the horse really any better balanced? No, it’s just an illusion. He feels better in the rider’s hand, so the rider thinks his balance has improved.
It’s like a person with an infection and a fever taking Advil to lower their temperature. The drug made their temperature go down (temporarily), but the infection (the actual cause of the high temperature) will remain until that is properly addressed.
In dressage, we never want the horse to think of “giving” by dropping his nose to his chest when the rider takes a contact, and that is exactly what draw reins teach a horse. Once a horse has that idea, it can be very hard to get the horse to ever truely move properly into the connection, he is always wanting to drop behind it.
Your quote:.“Once his brain is in gear, he’s very pleasant”
Sounds like he’s almost there. The exact aids for a canter strike off are specific for each horse and will be a little different on each rein to begin with. The quality of the canter is dependent on the quality of the strike off and I wouldn’t canter more than a few steps before bringing him down to a lower gear to calm him and reward him before starting again on the easiest rein to begin with. I like to sit to the outside a little over the outside hind driving leg just before I ask with the inside leg and after setting up a little inside bend with that inside leg and a hair of inside hand to get an inside flexion at the poll. Go slow.It’ll work fine for you both. Once you’ve figured the exact nuances in your aids for that particular horse in the strike off all will be well. If he can canter in his turnout as well as on the longe on both hands you’ve got it made. For me I wouldn’t worry about the funny gait until you get nice,calm and balanced strike offs to each side. Then I’ll bet the gait will be as good as it is in his turnout. Total calmness is one of the keys for me.
[QUOTE=LISailing;4602216]
There are many tools available to riders. Spurs, whips, lunge lines, side reins, martingales, and yes - Draw Reins. The key is understanding how they function and if properly applied can assist in moving the training process forward. However, all of these tools can be use inappropriately and be detrimental to the horse confidence and balance. It sounds as though you suceeded in getting a slightly improved response, but still far from where you would like to be. The forwardness is really the basis of your problem.
Your horse sounds like a few older horses with very little training that I have ridden. They usually packed around trail riders or had very poor basics. Even though walk and trot might be adequate, in the canter all deficiencies were magnefied 10x. And they can be very interesting. Most times the answer lies in building strength. Outside canter/gallop work in a large field and on hills is usually the best remedy. It allows the horse the visual freedom to move out creating the energy needed to develop rythym (even if it is a bit fast and heavy). Once the horse is confident that it can move forward, you will be able to engage this in an enclosed space (ring). Next I would work trot and canter poles or small cross rails. I’m sure you will be surprised that your uncoordinated mount begins to carry a few good strides after the cross rail. Again, something that you can build upon, but once it starts the improvement is quick and you achieve that elusive 3 beat canter.[/QUOTE]
agree but at theres always a but cant do that if one doesnt know how to hence why horses can pack around riders as you say
Class, you have a PM.
