In which draw reins are beneficial

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=lstevenson;4602873]

In dressage, we never want the horse to think of “giving” by dropping his nose to his chest when the rider takes a contact, and that is exactly what draw reins teach a horse. Once a horse has that idea, it can be very hard to get the horse to ever truely move properly into the connection, he is always wanting to drop behind it.[/QUOTE]

Then you aren’t using them correctly. I agree with JackSprats Mom. Used them once or twice on plenty of horse to “show them the way” to something. I have NEVER ridden one with his nose to his chest in draw reins and I don’t use them to teach contact. My horses go correctly to the bit and they have all been ridden in draw reins at some point.

As to the OP, can’t even make a guess without seeing it.

[lstevenson]

@Gry2Yng;4603603

Then you aren’t using them correctly. I agree with JackSprats Mom. Used them once or twice on plenty of horse to “show them the way” to something. I have NEVER ridden one with his nose to his chest in draw reins and I don’t use them to teach contact. My horses go correctly to the bit and they have all been ridden in draw reins at some point.

I should have used the word “towards” it’s chest, as the movement of the horse dropping it’s nose towards it’s chest can be very slight, but it’s always there.

And sorry, but IMO you are fooling yourself if you think that any horse that has been ridden in draw reins is honestly correctly “to” the bit. Draw reins teach a horse to “give” to the bit, which is very different than moving into it.

The two actions are not compatible at all.

[Ibex]

@lstevenson;4602873

It’s like a person with an infection and a fever taking Advil to lower their temperature. The drug made their temperature go down (temporarily), but the infection (the actual cause of the high temperature) will remain until that is properly addressed.

:lol:

Ok, but Advil HELP to address the issue correctly by getting your temp down while the actual issue dealt with correctly.

Which is exactly what properly applied draw reins will do. Used correctly, they can teach a horse where you want them to be when the other aids are applied properly.

If your horse is ducking in behind the contact in them, clearly you’ve not applying the other aids correctly, which would be like taking advil for an infection and nothing else.

And to suggest that a horse that has ever been in draw reins can’t go on the bit correctly is total garbage.

[Gry2Yng]

@lstevenson;4603620

I should have used the word “towards” it’s chest, as the movement of the horse dropping it’s nose towards it’s chest can be very slight, but it’s always there.

No, it isn’t always there. There is absolutely no reason why a horse in draw reins can’t have his nose in front of the vertical and the poll as the highest point. The rider has absolute control of the when the draw rein comes into play.

[quietann]

[QUOTE=goeslikestink;4601956]
not his stiffles or hocks - its you - so look at what your doing wrong before you ruin the horse which doesnt actually belong to you[/QUOTE]

GLS – how do you KNOW the OP is such an ignorant person and it’s automatically her? You’ve been so oppositional lately, like every rider in the USA is terrible unless they do things exactly like you do, with only the best certified trainers and obviously born with all the riding knowledge and equitation skills they need.

Sometimes it is just the horse. I don’t know if that’s the case with this horse, but to just assume that the rider is a novice and her trainer is clueless doesn’t seem fair.

It does sound like this horse could benefit from longeing without a rider, to help him develop his canter. And I have known horses who just had a 4 beat canter no matter how experienced the rider.

[rileyt]

I agree with Gry2Yng.

I hate draw reins because I think they’re unnecessary 99% of the time, and actively destructive almost that often.

But lstevenson, are you saying that they are ALWAYS destructive/incorrect/counterproductive? Even in the most capable hands? Because I don’t agree with that. I’ve seen a couple people I highly respect use them (sparingly), and I believe correclty.

The problem is, there are a lot of fairly decent riders out there who are good riders in all other respects, and think that THEY would never misuse them… but they do.

[sunhawk]

Holy Assumtions!! No one has seen this horse go, or seen the rider ride.
Everybody that uses draw reins ruins horses, every horse that is started under saddle has to be ridden perfectly? Excuse me!
There is a way to use draw reins without hurting the horse.
Pick up the snaffle rein the way that snaffle reins are held, with proper contact, run the draw rein to the finger above, with a slight slackness, the horse only connects with the draw rein if it raises it’s head to avoid contact. If the horse stretches down, soften arm and allow stretch. There is no way the horse has to go behind the bit.

To the op, I don’t think anybody can give you a real evaluation unless they can see you and your horse in action.

[lstevenson]

@Gry2Yng;4603688

No, it isn’t always there. There is absolutely no reason why a horse in draw reins can’t have his nose in front of the vertical and the poll as the highest point. The rider has absolute control of the when the draw rein comes into play.

Even if the horse has his nose in front of the vertical and his poll the highest point, if the draw reins are being used at all, the horse is learning to give to the pressure of the leverage against his mouth by changing the angle of his throatlatch, bringing his nose closer to his chest, even if it’s still not behind the vertical or behind the contact.

“Giving” to the hand and moving into the bit are still two polar opposites no matter how some want to sugar coat it.

[Ibex]

@lstevenson;4604123

Even if the horse has his nose in front of the vertical and his poll the highest point, if the draw reins are being used at all, the horse is learning to give to the pressure of the leverage against his mouth by changing the angle of his throatlatch, bringing his nose closer to his chest, even if it’s still not behind the vertical or behind the contact.

“Giving” to the hand and moving into the bit are still two polar opposites no matter how some want to sugar coat it.

You could make the same argument about a martingale.

[rileyt]

lstevenson, this may be a matter of semantics,… but I think we do want the horse to “give” somewhat.

I understand what you’re saying,… but we do want the horse to be supple and flexible at the poll… and I think you could argue that that is “giving” to the hand somewhat.

There is a happy medium there. A pony hunter might very happily move forward into the bit and trot around with his nose poked out. He’s “seeking” the bit and hand in the purest sense.

But we do want to create some flexion at the poll. And that requires the horse to “give” somewhat. Above all, we want a horse that responds to the rider’s aids. If the rider TELLS him to put his chin to his chest, the horse should respond. The issue is that hopefully we don’t do that.

The problem, IMO, with draw reins, is that what they are best at is creating poll flexion - much like a curb bit. And poll flexion is SO SO EASY to overdo. And SO SO hard to correct once you’ve overdone it.

So, while we may disagree slightly (I think draw reins, in rare cases, can be beneficial… and I think you can have a horse that seeks the bit honestly and still “gives” to the hand)… I suspect we are largely in agreement as to the seriousness of creating a horse who “gives” too much, or becomes overflexed due to draw reins.

[mickeydoodle]

Oh golly what a mess!!!

Would you all agree that Hilda Gurney and Carol Lavell are older goddesses of dressage? (notice i do not say old) You would call them some of the dressage greats that we have had in the US, right?

I went to a session at a USDF convention in Savannah, GA about 8 years ago. They both showed videos of THEMSELVES riding horses in draw reins. Carol showed a long video of her riding Much Ado in draw reins. Draw reins are a tool, and can be very useful.

If they helped the OP and horse over a hump, good for them.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;4603688]
No, it isn’t always there. There is absolutely no reason why a horse in draw reins can’t have his nose in front of the vertical and the poll as the highest point. The rider has absolute control of the when the draw rein comes into play.[/QUOTE]

i agree so lets put it in perspective so people that dont know can understand the correct format there are as you know 2 ways of riding in draw reins the good and the bad and theres also other way of usage with draw reins one other way is called running reins which is draw reins used in a different way the difference is normal draw reins usage is the reins come up from the girth between the front legs through the bit to the riders hands and the running rein comes from under the saddle flap

the horse that is incline to hollow his back and throw his head in the air and speak to jesus may beneifit from the draw reins.

they can help him start rounding his outline and they may used sympathyically
producing a desire result quicker than any other method however you should not consider it to be a short cut or quick fix
what your aiming for is to point the horse in the right direction and once the seed is sown then return to normal and traditional schooling methods that the horse understands
now to get the best out of drew reins you should have the rein comming from between the front legs through the bit ring and into your hands the draw reins should be a tad shorter than the direct rein, if you do this you will ride the horse forwards and into the bridle he will then feel pressure on the bars in the corner of his mouth
and he will drop his head as he does so he puts himself back onto the direct rein
and the draw rein does not effect him in any way until he tries to raise his head

the horse soon realises using this method that lowering his head is somthing of a reward and he will accept the outline imposed on him by the direct rein
as that is which you the rider has asked for

should he happen to raise his head then the draw rein will exert slightly more pressure and the head will come dwon again you will surprise yourself at how quickly the horse comes upto the contact he should relax the lower yaw lower his head and flex at the poll.

if however you maintian the draw rein pressure all the time as l steveson says for exsample the horse will never expreince the reward of relief, even if he lowers his head the pressure will remain and you would be encouraging the horse to push himself upwards in an attempt to rid himself of your constrictment

the practical effect is that as soon as you remove the draw rein his head will shoot straight upwards becuase that is what the horse has been trying to do whilse wearing the draw rein the whole purpose of the rein will have would have wasted

in most circumstances people use the draw rein between the front legs through the bit and back to the riders hands however another way is the draw reins can also be used over the top of the horses head down through the cheeks though the bit and back to the riders hands using this method the further back you bring the reins down the horses neck towards your body the more leverage effect you have with it.

start with the rein just in front of the withers and as soon as the horse gets the idea and relaxes his head push it forwards until you have it just behind his ears some horses responed to this method more readily than the more common usage
what matter when your using draw reins is the horse is tuaght that relaxing the poll and lower yaw and rounding the outline is rewarded by less pressure and discomfort draw reins can be of use to some horses used in the correct manner

but can also be very dangerous to be used by a novice rider of whome doesnt know how to use them effectively or properly its very easy to tip and flip a horse over backwards and if to much pressure can be the making of a ruined horse

[Foxtrot_s]

So now there is a change of tune - the OP stated quite clearly that she was aware of the drawBACKS of drawreins and knew that they could be mis-used.
This thread has turned into a treatise on everyone’s opinions of how dreadful the use of them is (with a few reasonable comments included.)

[slc2]

Draw reins always get some people riled up. And many people do use them incorrectly.

It’s always good to challenge onself to improve. But without the ability to evaluate why things are as they are, and what comes from rider and what comes from horse, one doesn’t choose the right fix. Usually, the horse is doing something that creates a challenge, but the rider is also doing something that he needs to change.

I’ve seen a great many horses that simply naturally do not have a good canter. They look much, much worse than the ‘standardbred canter’ video. Horses can get all the way into what looks like an almost TWO BEAT canter.

Is it always because they’re unsound? No. Sometimes this is just how they canter. I’ve seen horses canter like that since they were foals. It seems to be quite inheritable in that case.

Some are indeed ‘trained to do it’. I’m always surprised, even after many years, when people suggest such a fundamental problem is going to disappear if one merely checks one position and turns their thumbs up. This is the kind of thing really good trainers make their money on, because these things simply are NOT so easy to ‘untrain’.

With the horse that inverts and gets pacey in the canter, they can be very, very stiff and hard to bend. They get their head up and their back down and everything is very stiff. The rider may actually feel a little more able to influence this situation with draw reins. Hopefully it is a temporary approach, and the rider can then continue with normal equipment.

The situation sometimes is so bad, that a ‘four beat canter’ is, indeed, an improvement.

[LISailing]

SLC2

EXCELLENT RESPONSE!!

Every horse and every rider have strengths and weaknesses and each are very unique. Sometimes a tool is a diversion from the typical/classical training methods, but if it provides both parties a beneficial experience, they are often able to return to most traveled path (i.e.typical/classical training methods).

An In-the-Box approach to life or training isolates you from a myraid of possibilities. Keeping an open mind, with training methods, tools, gimmicks allows everyone to apply what they need or require to their particular situation.

I send the OP best wishes on accomplishing her goals. She a s the rider is really the only one that feel and understand the feedback that her horse is giving her. If her approach is correct, she should begin to feel her horse relax and become forward and up in the shoulder. If not, then a different approach would be required.

Remember doing the same thing over and over is a sure sign of stupidity. If it doesn’t work, you must make a change.

[EqTrainer]

What did I miss? The original post said that the horse is very hard to send forward… I would not put draw reins on a horse that does not go forward. They tend to go up, instead.

FWIW, I hack my dressage beast out in draw reins anytime my daughter is riding with me. She is 6. Mr. SpookSpinAndBolt is not going to get to pull a stunt when the Little Miss is riding her pony!

Otherwise I think I’ve used them 5 times in 15 years. When they are the right thing they are invaluable.

[lstevenson]

@rileyt;4604180

lstevenson, this may be a matter of semantics,… but I think we do want the horse to “give” somewhat.

There are three possibilities when the rider has a contact. The horse can come against the hand, he can accept the contact and go forward into it happily, or he can give to it. The actions of being against the hand or of giving to it can be very mild or very severe, or anywhere in between. The action of accepting and moving to the contact with relaxation is black and white. It either is or it isn’t. And it’s what we should be looking for in dressage.

If the horse’s natural reaction is to come against the hand, it shouldn’t be fixed at the bit, it should be fixed in the body of the horse. The horse is against the hand because he is bracing in his back. Bending excercises and lateral work will relax the back and get the hind end more properly active, which will allow the rider to feel increased acceptance of the hand.

And to those who think that draw reins can be used by some in a beneficial way…wasn’t it Reiner Klimke that said that he didn’t feel his hands were good enough to use draw reins w/o damaging the horse? But there are those here on COTH who think they are good enough??

[lstevenson]

@EqTrainer;4604730

FWIW, I hack my dressage beast out in draw reins anytime my daughter is riding with me. She is 6. Mr. SpookSpinAndBolt is not going to get to pull a stunt when the Little Miss is riding her pony!

And THIS is the only legitimate reason to use draw reins IMO. If they are absolutely neccessary to keep the rider safe for a reason like that. NOT for training a horse in dressage.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=EqTrainer;4604730]
What did I miss? The original post said that the horse is very hard to send forward… I would not put draw reins on a horse that does not go forward. They tend to go up, instead.

nor would i

[slc2]

I think what everyone is missing is how does a horse make himself ‘hard to send forward’.

He stiffens up his neck and shoulders as well as does not push with his hind legs. His head and neck come up, he inverts, and at the canter, gets pacey, or more pacey.

The draw reins, used correctly, can help the rider prevent the horse from stiffening up his muscles in this way.

Of course, the solution is never to ride just one end of the horse, no matter what the problem is. You can’t succeed by only pushing the back end, any more than you can succeed by only pulling on the front end.

The solution for this lady in this case, sounds like, was use the draw reins to break up the stiffness in the neck, but also to send the horse forward.

I really don’t think the horse would have ‘felt better’ to her, or gotten from the two beat HORRID canter to the TOMMOROW IS ANOTHER DAY 4 beat canter, if she hadn’t sent the horse forward as well.

Thing is, if the front end is that stiff, you can’t really ride the back end of the horse, either.

Any energy you could possibly create behind, just hits the stiffened up front end of the horse and makes it stiffer.

Horses come in one piece, and you have to be able to ride both ends.

Putting draw reins on the horse that is hard to send forward, doesn’t necessarily mean the rider is doing something wrong. It could if that’s all he did. But everyone is just assuming that’s all he did. Breaking up the stiffness in front may have allowed the rider to send the horse forward.