Incredible incredible horse

[Auventera_Two]

@FoxxxyStarr;2031984

b i guess my question is this: is there a real reason why extremes are better, or is it just us spectators have come to prefer?

Everybody should face the fact that the only more boring discipline to watch than dressage, is western pleasure. :lol: Non-horse people just don’t get it. And even non-dressage people just don’t get it. I know people that do jumping or endurance and dressage puts them right to sleep. With jumping, reining, barrel racing, vaulting, polo, etc. there is always excitement. There is always an “on the edge of your seat, suck in your breath moment” somewhere and that’s what spectators want.

I audited a GM clinic and was on the edge of my seat every second. It was fascinating and exhilerating to see the jumpers doing 4’9" fences from tight spots and sharp turns. Conversely, I audited a Betsy Steiner clinic and had to get up for coffee 3 times to keep from sleeping.

So I think its getting to where, if the sport is going to have spectators, there needs to be bigger, hotter, flashier horses, or people just don’t care to see it. Even when I was absolutely in LOVE with dressage and completely respected and adored the sport, I was bored to death after watching 3 rides.

In a lot of cases you never see a true, pure halt anymore. Instead the horses dance and prance all over. You see them break gait because they are being pushed to their limit. You see high snapping knees - almost circus like - in the piaffe - with no movement behind. You see the extensions, and even the lengthenings, get out of control, the rider can’t sit it, etc. It seems to be that there is this crazy desire for bigger, flashier, hotter, and more more more. The sport seems to be losing the purity and gets more circussy all the time.

I do LOVE to watch a great dressage ride. I really do! Some horses, and some rides will take my breath away. Horses liked Granus and Feiner Stern comes to mind. I have a tape of him (Feiner Stern) at home that makes me sit on the edge of my seat. Everything is absolutely fabulous as far as I’m concerned. He is breathtaking and exhilerating to watch, without looking like a freak show. The gaits are pure and lovely. They are not wild and eratic with high snapping knees and lengthenings that make you think he’ll careen out right through the crowd or run away out of control.

So yes, I do thoroughly enjoy seeing a fabulous dressage horse with purity right down to his very soul. But I don’t enjoy watching a freak show.

[Sakura]

@retrofit;2032379

The “rest of us”? This is what, your 3rd post, and you are speaking for … whom, exactly?

Sakura - Are you aware of the 2 for 1 Rosenthal breedings for Arab mares offered by High Point?

You really do know how to make a girl lose her mind don’t you :lol:.

Do you think they would let me buy now and use them later…? We may be moving over seas courtesy of the Marine Corps next summer, so if we do move no more foals for at least three more years…:(.

[Sakura]

I just gave this mare to a Sport Pony breeding program… she trots like this barefoot (and even without the knee deep grass :yes:). She would be a wonderful mare to use for WB crosses, I hope she does well in the program she is in now. I’m sure someone can find something wrong with her, but she’s not too bad for a 14 year old green broke broodmare :D.

[Horsedances]

I love this horse but…

It is no secret amongst dressage-riders that you can’t do much about the walk, and that worries me, I would rather own a horse with a 7.5 for trot and a 10 for the walk as vice versa.

Understand me well, I can make a very nice stable for him available.

Theo

[Auventera_Two]

I’ve heard that too Theo, that the walk is the only thing you can’t really do anything about, and always look for the better walk first. It should be really interesting to see how this horse develops and changes.

[siegi_b]

Having just attended an Axel Steiner clinic where we went over the new FEI tests, the subject of scoring walk movements came up. Well, Axel pointed out that nowhere in the FEI judging rules does it say that the horse has to have an overstep and, therefore, it can NOT be down-scored for a shorter walk. There has a to be a difference between the collected and medium, etc., but the horse does not have to have overstep.

[nhwr]

TS

Everybody should face the fact that the only more boring discipline to watch than dressage, is western pleasure. :lol: Non-horse people just don’t get it. And even non-dressage people just don’t get it. I know people that do jumping or endurance and dressage puts them right to sleep. With jumping, reining, barrel racing, vaulting, polo, etc. there is always excitement. There is always an “on the edge of your seat, suck in your breath moment” somewhere and that’s what spectators want.

I audited a GM clinic and was on the edge of my seat every second. It was fascinating and exhilerating to see the jumpers doing 4’9" fences from tight spots and sharp turns. Conversely, I audited a Betsy Steiner clinic and had to get up for coffee 3 times to keep from sleeping.

This just proves that you lack the base of knowledge to appreciate what you are experiencing in dressage. It is no sin, lots of people are in that category. My husband compares dressage to watching cement harden In the context of that ignorance, your comments are understandable. But please stop being so hostile to those who don’t share your ignorance. The constant hostility and bickering contributes nothing to the discussion and is tiresome.

[Auventera_Two]

Many people (even dressage riders themselves) don’t necessarily want to sit on a bench and watch hour after hour of riding on the flat. Hell, even the resident Dressage Expert Grandiose, SLC herself has said it many times that you don’t go to a dressage clinic to be entertained. You don’t go to a dressage show to be entertained. You go to learn and appreciate. You have to face it - dressage is not in the same category as Eventing or Show Jumping for the excitement factor. It is riding in a extremely controlled manner, on the flat. Absolutely nothing wrong with it at all, but its just the way it is.

There is no hostility at all! Rather just an expressed opinion (that nobody has to agree with!) that modern day dressage is getting more circusy and outlandish. Bigger gaits, bigger horse, more flash, more more more. It seems that the Americans are trying to keep up with the European Joneses by seeking out the most freakish moving horses they can find. Nobody wants to ride a 16 hand, good mover. They want 17+++, the huger the better. Do you know how many threads have been on this dressage forum about “Would you buy a 15 hand dressage horse?” or “Are small dressage horses really successful?” How the heck does dressage have ANYTHING to do with size??? But the truth is - you will rarely, if ever, see a crazy, freaky as heck, outlandish, make your jaw drop, mover in a 15 hand horse! Sometimes its not about more. Sometimes it is about refining the qualities which are present and using the training scale to improve the horse.

When I watch ride after ride in which horse after horse fails to produce a true, square, calm halt, then I realize that steps are being missed because people think they don’t really matter. That’s been discussed here on this forum, so I KNOW I’m not the only one who thinks that is a problem! :winkgrin: And this isn’t just at higher levels - its at 2nd and 3rd and 4th, just as well. What they think really matters is bigger, flashier, and fancier. It almost seems that trainers want people to go “ooh and ahhh” and creep to the edge of their seat as the super huge moving horse with freakish huge gaits goes flying across the diagonal and looks like he won’t make the turn in the corner.

Like I said, Feiner Stern makes the hair stand up on my neck. I probably admire no horse in the world more than I do Feiner Stern. (And yes, I adore a great western horse, and great Arabian too, but I do have some really strong dressage roots) But his gaits are not freakishly outrageous. Instead they are incredibly fluid, cadenced, and perfect in just about every way. (in my opinion anyway! )

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Robyn;2032355]
“Dangly parts” Gosh, I just LOVE that…can one use that phrase to describe species other than equine do you think??

Robin[/QUOTE]

That, or "naughty bits’ to borrow from the Monty Python crew.

[canyonoak]

<< Having just attended an Axel Steiner clinic where we went over the new FEI tests, the subject of scoring walk movements came up. Well, Axel pointed out that nowhere in the FEI judging rules does it say that the horse has to have an overstep and, therefore, it can NOT be down-scored for a shorter walk. There has a to be a difference between the collected and medium, etc., but the horse does not have to have overstep.>>

I know this is going to seem as though Im highjacking this thread, but bear with me a moment or two and, with any luck, I’ll bring it all home together<g>.

Having heard Linda Zang insist that the overstep MUST be measurable and that yes indeedy, she has put that in the Judge’s Handbook (you know, the Handbook that is now in its 1,237th revision and will someday be available for judges around the year 2042)…this is just another proof of how subjective dressage is as a sport.

Not a negative or positive–just a reflection on the subjectivity factor of the sport.

Which leads me to this thread and Quaterback.

It is a long road, dressage. Any great trainer will tell you it requires several lifetimes to get a handle on the finer points–because real training is about gaining control of one’s consciousness, never an easy thing for a human being.

Quaterback is not a freak of nature. He is not some outlandish, modish, exaggerated cartoon.

He is a living, breathing 3-year-old stallion (almost 4).

I kind of suspect his walk is better than a 7.5, especially if he is at home and not under the extreme atmosphere of a stallion days arena.

I kind of suspect that the ‘wide behind’ is going to go away as he develops strength–this has been the case of any young stallion/horse I have sat on/ watched being trained (correctly):

But , in training-- if you don’t ask–you’ll never know.

I kind of suspect that Christian Flamm (hats off to this guy–he can REALLY ride and not ruin a horse) realizes that he and the horse have a few minutes in a stallion days ring to show off–and one goes with what one gets.

He is NOT showing off the training. He is NOT showing off a finished product.

He IS showing off a potential, a fantasy that one hopes becomes reality.

To talk about the little glitches that occurred in this video as though they matter–well, it makes me wonder if anyone actually trains horses here…because such talk is all so silly.

And see how subjective and argumentative that last sentence is…?

Can’t we all just agree that this is a great horse? That he is extremely well-presented…?

That I wish we could get Flamm over here to give a Young Horse seminar…?

From my perspective, I simply cannot understand anyone who can watch the video and not see a great athlete.

I watch videos of horses performing well outside my chosen specialty and can appreciate the athleticism, the goal, the aim of the ride.

I chose dressage over the other disciplines because it appeals to me.

In choosing dressage as I understand dressage, this kind of horse appeals to me as a divine dance partner.

I kind of think that Linda Zang AND Axel Steiner would agree that this horse has unbelievable potential – whatever they might think about the walk<g>

Maybe now is a good time to discuss the canter. In the photos, this horse-- much like Florencio–appears to have both hind feet on the ground.

In the videos of either horse (that I have seen), both appear to have huge canters and the momentary dissociation is as fleeting as trying to find the 4-beat in the pirouette. Tha is, when I see the canter in MOTION, I like it a lot.

So it does not bother me, the dissociation, nor do I feel it proves anything except that high-speed cameras once again go outside the reality we sit on.

anyone?

[DanniS]

Well said and I wholeheartedly agree. No arguements here:)

But what about young horses who go wide behind free, in the paddock etc?

[canyonoak]

I tend to mentally check off young horses that go wide behind while free in a paddock.<G>

But even there-- it is just one variable . WHY is the horse wide behind?

I mean–a living horse has flaws. Nothing that breathes is perfect (well maybe George Clooney).

[WindsongEq]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;2026887]
Absolutely gorgeous. I did notice though that the rider seemed quite cautious on the lengthings, or was it my imagination that he asked for them?[/QUOTE]

He definately did some trot and canter extensions, from our angle on the video, you can’t really see the scope of the stride, but you can see the uphill balance… Look at the height of the front steps vs the hind ones. For an idea how brilliant they were, listen to the crowd during his canter extension.
Wow!! What a horse!! Just brilliant!!

[mp]

[QUOTE=FoxxxyStarr;2031880]
but what exactly is the appeal of such massive movement? is it to attract the judge’s attention in the show ring? in that case it is very similar to park horse movement, in that you want a horse who can turn it on and make everyone look at him. while dressage may seem very different from other disciplines because of the show format, perhaps the disciplines are more alike that we think?[/QUOTE]

What you want in any show horse in any discipline (dressage and WP included) is the ability to “turn it on” in the ring. Call it presence or charisma or brilliance or whatever you want. It’s a controlled energy and confidence that some horses possess and others do not. Or at least they can’t be that way when they’re shown.

A horse who has it is mesmerizing to watch, no matter what he’s doing in the ring. One of the most memorable dressage tests I’ve ever seen was a 2nd level test ridden on a p.b. Arabian named Aul Magic. He owned that ring the moment he entered it. That horse had “it” in spades.

From what I can see, I’d say Quaterback has it, too, “outlandish gaits” aside. Hats off to the breeder and the rider, I say. You did good.

[MyReality]

A couple of people commented on the travelling wide issue. Personally I have seen both, horses that do that because they are growing, and horses who still do that grown and trained. Actually my understanding is all cases it IS a matter of strength, so I agree 50% of what Kathy Johnson mentioned. But where that comes from, could be from conformation, could be a result of poor training, or a growing horse adjusting to body change.

It is not a stallion thing at all. And true, the more mature the horse is, the less you’ll see this type of thing.

But let’s not lose sight of the context of what is happening with this horse at the show. He is green we all know that. In case people don’t notice, not only is he travelling wide, he is also not straight most of the time. I accept these things, like all other breed shows I went to, like all other young horses I come across… I understand what they are trying to accomplish at the show, and I understand all young horses are going to look gangly.

I guess people are expecting to see a stallion at that age less put together. I understand that sentiment. However, may I remind you AGAIN, this rider could make a donkey look good. If it’s me who is riding, he will look like that 3 year old stallion all over the place… then you’ll think, ah that’s the suitable level this horse should be at! I will probably ride with longer rein so I get less resistence… and posting trot coz I can’t really sit that trot… but probably he will buck a few times as he hates my hand… and I would be so thrown out of the saddle in the lengthening he will bolt. You can’t force a horse really, especialy stallions… I can’t see how you can take what he cannot offer.

Now the subject of flashiness in show horse. Actually, as i mentioned in my first post already… personally this horse is too much for me, in terms of flashiness of movement, even if I am a GP rider. I do understand and agree somewhat when people say he is a bit freaky. But I still like this horse A LOT, because of how elastic and supple he is, and his natrual suspension, cadence and engagement, and his attitude is one in a million. Without those, a horse ONLY has flashy movement, I would turn my nose.

And I hate dressage horses with flashy movement, but really temperamental, hot and tense.

Lastly, if I still have to see pictures of individual Arabs, flexing their legs UP as if they are trotting on hot coals, as examples…

[FoxxxyStarr]

[QUOTE=nero;2032177]
geez foxxxy, you remind me of someone called trailblazer!!![/QUOTE]
i don’t see my opinions as being groundbreaking, as there seem to be others here who will agree with me. here we have a video of a lovely show horse doing his thing at a BREED show. this video was posted on a DRESSAGE board. there is no need to be so contemptuous of those who are not so enamored with the extreme breed type exhibited in the video. you simply picked the wrong bulletin board to post this on.

[FoxxxyStarr]

[QUOTE=nhwr;2032600]
This just proves that you lack the base of knowledge to appreciate what you are experiencing in dressage. It is no sin, lots of people are in that category. My husband compares dressage to watching cement harden In the context of that ignorance, your comments are understandable. But please stop being so hostile to those who don’t share your ignorance. The constant hostility and bickering contributes nothing to the discussion and is tiresome.[/QUOTE]
ahh, so those who find dressage boring to watch are ignorant. sounds like those who dislike modern art. they just don’t know enough to appreciate it, right? the whole point of dressage is that it SHOULD be boring to watch. the best ride is the one you don’t even notice. that’s why dressage is different from saddle seat.

[Wild_Oaks_Farm]

Wow! He is something else. He gave me goosebumps to watch!

[system]

that horse is very nice. it reminds me of how our gorgeous saddlebreds go. love it.

[Sandy_M]

@mp;2032831

A horse who has it is mesmerizing to watch, no matter what he’s doing in the ring. One of the most memorable dressage tests I’ve ever seen was a 2nd level test ridden on a p.b. Arabian named Aul Magic. He owned that ring the moment he entered it. That horse had “it” in spades.

My present horse is nearly 21, has arthritic stifles, was never a great mover, just a basic good, TB-type mover that did well through 2nd level, some third, after starting life as a hunter/jumper/trail horse (and stayed a trail horse throughout). Lots of All Breeds wins and placings, got me performance certificates and rider certificates at each level, etc. A lovely horse, but he’s been retired from showing for the past two years, is now primarily a trail horse, and I will, hopefully, be able to find a sponsor for him next year so that I can start my baby, who is living with the breeder for now, since he’s only two.

Now…after all that…the newbie is 16 hands at 2.5 years old. He has 8" overstep at the walk (!) and is very free in the shoulder, but obviously not under saddle yet as he is too young. And he is… by Aul Magic out of a 17.2 Appaloosa mare. He does not have perfect conformation, but he has a lovely top line for an unbacked horse, is short backed, moves straight, and uses his hocks extremely well (PPE vet said, “I thought he was going to hit his belly!”). She also said he had a bit too much knee action if I wanted a hunter (no problema, doc, I want a dressage horse). But I certainly don’t think he’s a freakish mover - just a very nice mover. I only hope I can preserve those gaits once he’s under saddle. While I don’t have ambitions to do anything more than have a nice horse to ride and show, hopefully through 3rd level, I have great hopes for him - it would be nice if he could do as well as his sire! (My first half-Arab, too. Though I think of him as Appaloosa… he has a snowflake blanket.)