Instructor too harsh? Or are people becoming too sensitive?

[Cascades]

Hello All,

In the wake of my event horse’s long term injury (see previous thread - Pity Party in eventing), I have been seeking ways to stay riding fit in the meantime. Recently, I began taking lessons with a primarily hunter/jumper trainer. Now, as a junior rider, I rode mostly hunters and equitation, so I am not entirely new to the hunter/jumper world.

Anyway, I have been hearing some things locally about this trainer that honestly have me baffled. Namely, that trainer is “mean” to her clients and overly “harsh”. I’ve heard this from two different people at this point.

So far, trainer doesn’t seem overly mean or harsh to me. Yes, she is blunt and plain spoken, but she always pairs a negative with a positive. IE - “Better with your position, but you didn’t have enough canter into the line.” Or, “The fences worked out, but you were riding too much off your hands”.

Yes, she almost always has something to criticize, but isn’t that what I’m paying for? I mean, I’m glad that I’m doing some things right, but I’m paying an instructor to work on what I’m doing wrong…

I’m honestly confused - is this what passes for “mean” now? I’ve watched this trainer in many situations with many different clients and she’s pretty consistent - blunt, but fair. Are people just crazy?

[hillary_again]

Honestly, I think the trainers know how to give good, clear feedback, but most clients don’t seem to want that. They want to be told they are “awesome!” and “amazing!” and “you did really, really, really good!”.

I have found that when I tell my trainer(s) that I want to become a better rider, and not just get encouraged, that I DO get direct and not always “nice” inputs. Yeah! THAT is how I get better.

If this person’s style matches yours, what do you have to lose? Again, I think this is sometimes just a mismatch. If you are trying to learn at a basic level, having a trainer who keeps telling you that you are doing a lot of stuff wrong is not going to be good for you. If you are trying to get a higher level, you need someone who is going to help direct you to what you need to do (or stop doing). A respectful and direct tone is not “mean” - “mean” is degrading and full of ridicule.

[Training_Cupid]

The examples you cited sound helpful, not mean (though obviously the tone matters.). I’ve heard far worse! Different people respond to different teaching styles, I’m pretty sensitive and couldn’t handle a harsh or even gruff instructor.

[alterhorse]

[QUOTE=hillary again;8396508]
Honestly, I think the trainers know how to give good, clear feedback, but most clients don’t seem to want that. They want to be told they are “awesome!” and “amazing!” and “you did really, really, really good!”.

I have found that when I tell my trainer(s) that I want to become a better rider, and not just get encouraged, that I DO get direct and not always “nice” inputs. Yeah! THAT is how I get better.

If this person’s style matches yours, what do you have to lose? Again, I think this is sometimes just a mismatch. If you are trying to learn at a basic level, having a trainer who keeps telling you that you are doing a lot of stuff wrong is not going to be good for you. If you are trying to get a higher level, you need someone who is going to help direct you to what you need to do (or stop doing). A respectful and direct tone is not “mean” - “mean” is degrading and full of ridicule.[/QUOTE]

So true.

The best trainers are those who understand how to tailor make a learning program based on the individual student’s needs.

[trubandloki]

I think it is just a case of there are different types of trainers for different types of people. (And yes, there are some trainers who can change to match anyone.) Some people want a trainer that is all positive and praise, other people want George Morris.

[Blondie22]

I would never want to ride with a trainer who just blew smoke up my behind and said I was fab. I am paying to further my skills! Your trainer sounds totally fair and helpful. Maybe others are just weenies?

[foursocks]

I’m amazed at the number of people who really just want the sunshine and bunnies approach. I don’t want to hear “great!” about a fence I just biffed. I want to hear how I can fix it. Or even just to be told to go fix it- sometimes that is enough to get me refocused and thinking.

I grew up with a tough but fair trainer, and I have one now. I’ve had a couple of cheerleader trainers in between and I found myself getting increasingly frustrated and feeling like I wasn’t being pushed to improve, or given the tools to do so.

A lot of people are intimidated by my trainer and absolutely his style is not for everyone. You work your ass off, he notices every single detail, and there is never any useless sunshine. All compliments are well-deserved and not handed out lightly. I like that, I don’t need someone to tell me I’m fabulous when I’m trying to learn and be a better rider. But that’s me- other people (I think) take any criticism as negative and personal and it messes with their confidence. So, anyone who rides with my trainer is more on my side of the learning scale, and luckily there are other trainers who suit other learning styles better.

[bathsheba8542]

Perhaps you just haven’t seen the other side of the coin yet. I worked for some time with a woman who started out in lessons as direct and ‘helpful’ … she morphed over some months into a real monster. While at the time I didn’t know that was her reputation, it certainly became clear in my professional relationship with her. Years later I’ve had the experience of others sharing that same impression of her. So, my advice would be to be careful and be prepared.

[Lord_Helpus]

I guess people are too soft nowadays! This trainer seems like a lamb. I WANT to be critiqued – that is what I am paying for. And this trainer critiques both the good and the bad. AWESOME.

To make this trainer perfect he/she ideally will also tell you how to correct your problems. I do get frustrated with trainers who tell you what you are doing wrong, but do not follow up with solutions. If I knew how to solve my problems I would not be taking lessons.

[heronponie]

^ ditto. If everyone seems to think this trainer is harsh, perhaps you just haven’t seen the full extent of it yet. Rarely does everyone get it wrong.

There is a happy medium between sunshine & roses, and a militant slavedriver of a trainer. It’s possible to deliver criticism in a positive and constructive manner. Personally I will never again employ a coach who screams at me or belittles students- that doesn’t mean I need sunshine and hugs. It means I need someone who can control their temper and interact like an adult

[Foxglove6]

If you’re having a good experience and good lessons, continue with the trainer. Don’t base your training decisions on other people’s impressions. If the trainer’s style fits with yours, then that works! It may not work for other people and that’s okay too.

I have what most folks would term a harsh trainer. But I know I’ve gotten better under her tutelage and I don’t cry anymore :winkgrin: Honestly I cry very frequently and I went from a sunshine and bunnies trainer to one who demanded that things be fixed immediately. The switch was rough but I prefer the criticism and nitpicking. If I think everything is good, I won’t change anything. And that’s not helpful when there’s a lot of improvement to be made.

Take what other people say with a grain of salt and make your own conclusions based on how the trainer treats you.

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=bathsheba8542;8396736]
Perhaps you just haven’t seen the other side of the coin yet. I worked for some time with a woman who started out in lessons as direct and ‘helpful’ … she morphed over some months into a real monster. While at the time I didn’t know that was her reputation, it certainly became clear in my professional relationship with her. Years later I’ve had the experience of others sharing that same impression of her. So, my advice would be to be careful and be prepared.[/QUOTE]

^This.

I rode at a barn that had a trainer (not my trainer) that had a reputation as being difficult and nasty. new people would come in and start to take lessons with her and wonder what was up since she seemed great. Then the honeymoon period was over and her nasty side came through.

Not sure what ever happened to her but her student turn over was pretty high after about that honeymoon period wore off.

[cayuse]

Criticism is a good way to learn, until it becomes abusive and bullying. I have taken lots of lessons over the years and expect to be critized so I can use the instructors observations to learn from. Positive reinforcements are nice too.
Only once did I have an instructor go over the top, her criticism turn into public humiliation during a group lesson in which another students family was there from across the country to visit and observe. She had an audience and played to it, making everyone in the indoor very uncomfortable. I dismounted and politely left the lesson so not to make an even bigger scene. The other women’s (lessoner) family came up to me afterwards and were upset about the instructors behaviour.
So it’s all about the tone for me, and whether or not the criticism is constructive.

[hb]

I tend to be hard on myself and need a trainer who will help me see the positive things in my riding. If I make a mess of a fence, I usually know what I did wrong. My trainer and I discuss what I could do better. She also needs to remind me that the other 7 fences went well and help me see what I’m doing right and to see that I am improving over time. I’ve also found her approach of discussing the rise rather than telling me what I should have done helps me become a better thinking rider.

I’ve ridden with trainers who primarily criticized, and while what they said was technically correct, I do need to be reminded not to discount what I do right.

I rode with one trainer who became visibly frustrated when I was unable to do what she thought I should be able to do. I was trying, and hearing only the negative, with her using an angry tone, didn’t help at all. That might work for some people, but it didn’t work for me.

[lesson_junkie]

There’s a difference between demanding and abusive. I don’t pay my instructor to be a cheerleader, she’s there to keep my riding correct and safe. As I get older and do most of my riding in the hunt field, this is more important than ever to me. She takes a hard line with the basics, which is exactly what I need. That makes her a good teacher, not “mean”.

But-she’s there to help me, not to make fun of me or set me up to fail.

[hunterrider23]

If she’s working well for you, then continue it. However, remember that I can see where people might be coming from. I personally can deal with the criticism, but only when an occasional compliment is thrown my way. No one likes to be told they’re never doing anything right, and a simple fix to that is simple rephrasing somethings. Stuff like “Your leg was really good there, but next time you see something short, make sure to lean back” instead of just “You have to lean back when you’re short”. Having a constructive criticism is good but it has to be balanced with some good things, other wise some people can start to feel like they’re not good enough. In that situation, you tend to hear comments like, “I can’t do anything right” or “Nothing I do is good enough for her”, and I get that. No one wants to feel like they’re totally inadequate, but it’s easy too if they only ever receive negative reinforcement.

[findeight]

Yeah, theres nasty teachers out there but this example is not one of those. IME nasty, mean trainers are bullies taking out their insecurities on both clients and their horses. Show me a trainer that crosses the line into verbal abuse and I’ll show you one that is physically abusive to horses. So I have little use for them.

One thing that concerns me about the trainers that are too nice and let repeated flaws and weakness in position continue as well as the clients who get upset over direct criticism of continuing weak position? Sooner or later that weak position will get them hurt. We sit the way we do because it is the strongest and safest way to get over fences and control the horse.

Everybody wants to go horse show and move up in height, few anymore want to put in the time and effort to fix the flaws and get stronger in position and they don’t want to be continually told what needs to improve or that they are not ready to go higher. Trainers get frustrated and tired of fixing the mess riding flaws and weak position make of the horses. And, hate to say it, the temptation to chemically be sure the horse does not take advantage, that’s a reality fueling that choice. Keep the weak rider safe. ( No I don’t agree but there you have it).

Absolutely true everybody has preferences in teaching style but at some point, you need to be told the truth, weak position, not enough pace, not straight or you will end up head first into an oxer courtesy of a horse fed up with compensating.

For those that want a more recreational, relaxing experience, trainers that sugar coat everything are fine. For those that want to ride seriousl and advance, a more direct teaching style is going to get the rider further and keep them safer. Not mean, just honest. That’s how OP should answer those remarks that trainer is “mean”. They are a better choice for serious riders ready for serious coaching who understand constructive criticism is not being “mean”.

[roamingnome]

I had a trainer who was VERY nice to me. About 2 months in, I overheard one assistant and a fellow boarder talking about how scared they would be to spend the 3 hour drive to a show in the truck with trainer–apparently everyone else (but me) was terrified of her.
I saw later why they thought that, and when I was no longer ‘her favorite’ I got the rude/mean demeanor.

There are some trainers I’ve seen at shows that I know I could never ride with. Mentally, I break down if I am berated. Some thrive under it. Sometimes you need to have some ‘tough love’ but if your trainer can’t find anything positive to say, then they’re not really doing their job right?
On the other hand, if all you have to say was ‘that was great!’ ‘amazing!’ when I walk out of the ring, first I will wonder if you were indeed watching and second I’m going to want some feedback, if I don’t get it, I’ll wonder why I pay you…

[DMK]

Everyone (trainers and students) has a style that works for them. I don’t want to be told I’m awesome all the time. OK, let’s not kid ourselves… I DO want to be told I am awesome all the time, because I am the greatest rider evah… but since that “wish” isn’t even in the same solar system with reality, I’ll settle for being told what I’m doing wrong and what I’m doing right (so I can do it more often).

But if you yell at me, I’ll just tune you out. I’m not particularly thin skinned or unaware of my limitations, I just get highly irritated by yellers and don’t learn well from them. It’s a waste of my money and their time.

Now as a teenager I’m sure I thought of the yellers as “mean” because lack of self awareness is the hallmark of the age. With age and wisdome comes the knowledge that they aren’t mean, and there are plenty of people who do just fine in that program, it just isn’t for me.

I definitely had a trainer who could say mean things, but he had so may psychological issues, that he would project his insecurities on to you at times. At the time I was old enough to get that, but it didn’t make it anymore fun and we just parted ways at some point.

[PonyPenny]

[QUOTE=bathsheba8542;8396736]
Perhaps you just haven’t seen the other side of the coin yet. I worked for some time with a woman who started out in lessons as direct and ‘helpful’ … she morphed over some months into a real monster. While at the time I didn’t know that was her reputation, it certainly became clear in my professional relationship with her. Years later I’ve had the experience of others sharing that same impression of her. So, my advice would be to be careful and be prepared.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Some trainers start out direct and helpful, but when it morphs in personal attacks is when it gets mean. I do not tolerate yelling or belittling. Calling people stupid or other choice words is when it is no longer constructive. Many times it is frustration that the rider can not accomplish whatever task the trainer is asking the rider to do. Some trainers have a hard time explaining things and just want to yell. A good teacher should be able to explain exactly how to to do something. George Morris’ books on teaching beginners to ride and Hunter Seat Equitation give great advice on how to teach. My daughter once took a clinic from Anne Kursinksi and Anne was firm, but fair. There were no personal attackes. Rob Gage is another that does an excellent job at teaching.