It is a two way street - the student has to be teachable, attentive and ready to try to make changes…no wonder coaches get tired of those who cannot or will not. A bright, curious, intelligent and teachable student will not bring out the worst in a coach. Both sides should get satisfaction.
As long as you are having good interactions with this instructor, keep riding with her. If, once the honeymoon is over, she becomes harsh and critical and you don’t like it, then move on.
In terms of teaching style, there is a huge range between “sunshine and bunnies” and “harsh and mean.” I won’t ride with someone who is extremely critical or yells. That doesn’t mean that I want nothing but praise. But there are a whole lot of ways to coach someone without being negative and critical.
If, for example, I screw up the approach to a fence, I don’t want a step-by-step critique of the many ways I suck as a rider. At this point, I’m fully aware of them. What I want is an instructor who says, “OK, let’s do that again. This time, as you make the turn, I want you to think about doing this instead of that.”
It is absolutely possible to teach a person to ride better without being overtly critical. The caveat being, of course, that different approaches work better for different people.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8396995]
It is a two way street - the student has to be teachable, attentive and ready to try to make changes…no wonder coaches get tired of those who cannot or will not. A bright, curious, intelligent and teachable student will not bring out the worst in a coach. Both sides should get satisfaction.[/QUOTE]
This is so true. I’ve ridden with some VERY tough trainers…and saw a few of them perhaps cross the line but it was almost always out of frustration with a rider not listening or even trying.
Everyone has a different learning style. I am pretty thick skinned and want to have challenging lessons where I’m learning and being criticized but in a constructive way. I once had someone tell me “you’re ruining that horse” and as a competent riding junior and now adult that falls in the category of unhelpful and just demeaning…Now the other day in my lesson my trainer said “why did you choose that turn it was a terrible turn and led to a terrible jump” but she was right both my turn and jump were bad :lol: so I started over and got it right that time.
I think there is a line between pushing your students and challenging them and personally attacking them and their riding abilities. And of course finding a trainer’s style that works for you is what’s important. OP I would keep riding with her until you see something that you personally don’t like.
I agree it may take a bit of time for the nasty to come out. The other thing I have noticed is that people often know who they can get away with the crappy attitude with and who then can’t. I don’t hear the type of things said to adults that I heard said to juniors. Hopefully things will keep going smoothly for you.
I ride with a trainer that some people consider too blunt and plain spoken. Not me! I love working with her, my horse and I have made tons of progress, gained in confidence, and I understand the mechanics of what I am doing so much better. Love this trainer-- it is hard to find one like this, who knows horses and people inside and out, SEES the important details and communicates with you about them. I tell her occasionally I need a kick up the rear to do something, I am plain and honest with her on how I am on a particular day. For instance, one lesson the horse and I could not get our act together. I told her I could not shake the stress from a bad work day, and it was affecting my ride. She said, fine, and we toned down what we were working on.
My self worth does not hang in the balance depending on how my lesson goes. I know there will be great ones, awful ones, and everything in between. It is part of learning. My instructor knows what my goals are for me and my horse, and is on board with getting us there. She believes they are realistic, and explains what needs to develop to make it happen.
And yes, I think there are people who are too sensitive and thin skinned about it. Horse riding can be a dangerous sport, horses are unpredictable, and people need to have a realistic assessment of how they are doing. If they lack the foundation to jump a certain height, the trainer owes it to that person to tell them that, and suggest the work needed to fill the hole. You see way too much of people careening around jumps, hanging on for dear life, on game but overfaced horses, where eventually the horse gets hurt, the rider blames the horse, the rider continues to careen around on another kind soul… riders who collapse in heaps after a jump, do not know how to release, whose legs kick near the cantle of the saddle over the jump, so the horse’s back and legs take a pounding. But these people are invariably sensitive souls about a critique.
I would rather just be told plain and outright how things stand. And then work to make them better. I actually have a tough hide about being told about my riding-- I want honesty, not flowery, and because my riding goals are important, I will dig in and work to get there. If there is something I do not understand, I will ask.
Your instructor does not sound mean, and does not sound as if she has the capacity to turn that way. Only time will tell. But I do think people are used to receiving false praise, and not real appraisals, and struggle because they want constant self validation.
How I ride is just how I ride. It does not pay my bills ( it causes them! :D) and is not a measure of my sense of self. A bad ride does not make me a horrible human, it only makes me human, because there will always be good days and bad days.
I guess I just don’t get the point of a unduly harsh or superficially positive trainers. Like everyone, I assume, I just want my trainer to be honest. If I get it right, say so. If I don’t get it, or do a bad job, tell me. Don’t stand in the ring and yell the same set of instructions over and over - if I didn’t get it the first time, I probably ain’t gonna get it the next twenty times no matter how loud you yell. Likewise with the sweetness and rainbows - if I didn’t get it, don’t tell me I did. I’m going to find out from someone that I’m not as good as you say and then I’m going to be humiliated and furious!!
With all that said, I’ve had trainers that think the only way to communicate is by belittling the rider or yelling at the top of their lungs - in English and German. I’ve spent time sitting on my horse in the corner crying because I was all out of answers and still didn’t know what to do or even what I was doing wrong. Thank goodness, I found a backbone and ditched those trainers - mostly thanks to a lot of really strong friends - and now I just won’t put up with that garbage. Treat me with respect or I’m just not going to play (or pay you).
Not necessarily a riding instructor example, but going through high school, we had a TOUGH English teacher. He expected a lot from us and expected perfection. Didn’t do your homework? Detention. Period. Didn’t compliment people. Didn’t give “gold stars”. But dang, it was evident when I talked to students from other schools at the time, or did academic competitions, or when I got to college, that I knew my stuff when it came to English (grammar, nouns, adverbs, etc). He was a really, really good teacher. Yea I know there were those in my class who didn’t like him, but even they would admit he had a good program.
Same went for my volleyball coach I had in high school. She was downright scary! She’d have no problem yelling at you in front of everyone, or make you drop down and do push-ups for not calling the ball, or what have you. But you are darn right that we had one of the best volleyball teams in the region and routinely went to state. She unexpectantly passed away my junior year and we all missed her terribly because she was such a good coach. Made us work hard and strive to be the best.
Not everyone has a teaching method of roses and rainbows. Doesn’t means it is any less effective.
I agree that if I take riding lessons, I want to know what I am doing wrong and how to fix it. That’s why I am there!!
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8397073]
This is so true. I’ve ridden with some VERY tough trainers…and saw a few of them perhaps cross the line but it was almost always out of frustration with a rider not listening or even trying.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, about a month ago, while watching a friend’s lesson, the trainer crossed the line. The trainer was trying to get my friend and her horse to do a shoulder in at the trot but neither the horse nor my friend were getting it. The trainer’s instructions weren’t making any sense, and after about 15 minutes, the trainer just yelled across the arena, “Okay stop! I’m getting on, I don’t have time to deal with you tonight.” I didn’t say anything but I was pretty much floored. For one, the trainer has nothing but time to deal with my friend and her horse seeing as they are paying the trainer to do exactly that. For two, watching the blow to my friend’s confidence was awful.
The trainer got on the horse, smacked it around for about 10 minutes until it got the shoulder-in and then had my friend get back on. All they did were a few transitions after that and the lesson was over. From beginning to end, just over 1/2 an hour.
[QUOTE=sammicat;8397407]
Unfortunately, about a month ago, while watching a friend’s lesson, the trainer crossed the line. The trainer was trying to get my friend and her horse to do a shoulder in at the trot but neither the horse nor my friend were getting it. The trainer’s instructions weren’t making any sense, and after about 15 minutes, the trainer just yelled across the arena, “Okay stop! I’m getting on, I don’t have time to deal with you tonight.” I didn’t say anything but I was pretty much floored. For one, the trainer has nothing but time to deal with my friend and her horse seeing as they are paying the trainer to do exactly that. For two, watching the blow to my friend’s confidence was awful.
The trainer got on the horse, smacked it around for about 10 minutes until it got the shoulder-in and then had my friend get back on. All they did were a few transitions after that and the lesson was over. From beginning to end, just over 1/2 an hour.[/QUOTE]
And friend STILL does not know how to execute a shoulder in at the trot after watching “trainer” smack horse around for 10 minutes. I’d be outta there. That’s a waste of friends time, she’s not being given any tools to learn with regardless, none are being presented to her mean or nice.
I see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, people are too sensitive a lot of the time. The comments you mentioned are all instructions and constructive criticism. But you haven’t been there long enough to know what may happen in the future. I think some healthy skepticism and professional distance is a good thing. Some trainers are just unprofessional. As in any service profession there can be bullies or sickos with lots of problems - drugs, alcohol, shady business deals, etc. So on the one hand people may be more sensitive, but on the other hand there are lots of weirdos and sickos out there who may get pleasure out of bullying people or whatever. Anyone can become a trainer and there seem to be more of them now than there used to be.
[QUOTE=findeight;8397444]
And friend STILL does not know how to execute a shoulder in at the trot after watching “trainer” smack horse around for 10 minutes. I’d be outta there. That’s a waste of friends time, she’s not being given any tools to learn with regardless, none are being presented to her mean or nice.[/QUOTE]
That comment “I don’t have time for you” is awful. I would look for a new trainer.
[QUOTE=findeight;8397444]
And friend STILL does not know how to execute a shoulder in at the trot after watching " trainer" smack horse around for 10 minutes. I’d be outta there. That’s a waste of friends time, she’s not being given any tools to learn with regardless, none are being presented to her.[/QUOTE]
Yes…I think I would say that may be a tough trainer but not good one. Being good…doesn’t mean soft or tough…but being able to teach well.
My point was that I’ve had very good AND tough (high expectations)…but even good ones can get beyond frustrated with students at times who do not try or listen. That was more the point.
A shoulder in is not a difficult concept to teach…but when both horse and rider are new to it…it could be confusing to both. But still…never seen a good trainer who couldn’t get a horse and rider to understand it pretty quick.
There is a big difference between tough and bullying. Miss a lead change, drop and do ten push ups. Forget your spurs, run a lap around the arena. We had a trainer that worked that way. She could also be a real betch, mean. At one point after DD had been horseless through no fault of her own and had not been able to lesson consistently at her height the trainer remarked with quite a venomous tone: “You’re not the rider you used to be.” Ow.
I didn’t object to the consequences for mistakes at all, but the cutting personal remarks and put downs were indicative that she had problems and lacked self control. And in the end she demonstrated the latter in a rather epic way. I’m glad we got out and away before she really melted down.
[QUOTE=Soaponarope;8397451]
That comment “I don’t have time for you” is awful. I would look for a new trainer.[/QUOTE]
It’s tough, my instructor has definitely said that but under very different circumstances. I’m not always convinced that my instructor is the right one for me. But she’s the current best option at a barn that is the best barn for my horse. So I deal with it.
I have a group lesson (7-8 riders) with a combination of weekly lesson students and boarders who show 2-3 times a month. If someone (boarder or weekly student) is having a horse problem where the horse continually runs out on a jump or stops or does something equally dangerous and the rider is not following instructions and making the appropriate corrections, I’ve heard “I don’t have time for you tonight.” Because she’s not going to make the rest of us watch one person for 10 minutes of our 60 minute group lesson not make the changes that she’s telling them to make. Some lessons are heavy on one person or another, but very few can be so unequally balanced such that everyone else gets short shrift.
[QUOTE=Soaponarope;8397470]
There is a big difference between tough and bullying. Miss a lead change, drop and do ten push ups. Forget your spurs, run a lap around the arena.
.[/QUOTE]
I would actually have objected to the first one. This is not the Marines, and there are plenty of reasons to miss a lead change (some of which involving the horse alone.)
In general–the OP’s trainer sounds fine SO FAR. Though I have to say, while that seems like a happy medium I hope it’s sometimes phrased as something other than “You did [good thing] right, BUT [wrong things.]” After a while, even if it’s not vitriolic, constant couching of praise in a “that was good BUT” framework gets wearing. Sort of like a constant nagging reminder that no matter how many things you get right you’ve always done something wrong, too, and eventually that turns into hearing “Okay, you don’t suck, but you’re never good enough.” Just me personally, I find too much praise off-putting, constant strict correction oppressive, and like the balance I got from my British dance instructor (who also had a ‘scary’ reputation which I didn’t find to be the case)–he would offer corrections, never in a harsh way, and once in a great while he’d offer verbal praise in addition to just not correcting anything. If he didn’t say anything, I was doing it right. If I got a “well done” I knew that actually meant something was good, not just correct.
I know of a couple of trainers who can be quite harsh w/ their clients at times - and it always amazes me that when those trainers lashed out like that that the clients (or the parents) didn’t stand up for themselves. I’ve witnessed some trainer lash-outs that honestly if I was their client or parent I’d have to call them out on it. Having said that the trainers I know that lose it I think would be surprised if someone recorded them as I don’t think they realize how awful they can actually be and I don’t believe it was to be mean.
I think it would depend on the people who have told you that she is mean. What type of people/riders are they. You should be able to tell from their personalities if they are the type who like to be coddled along and take criticism badly or if they are the type that are looking for things to be improved. It really could depend. If everyone you’ve talked to who rides/rode with her thinks she is mean, I’d be cautious to see if she changes once she thinks she has you long term.
But I also think that people are way too used to not having anyone criticize them any more. We take things way too personally and are constantly told we need to be careful with our words so we don’t hurt others on accident.
I get frustrated with the tired old adage that “people today are too soft/sensitive.”
I think people today expect to be treated with respect and with simple human courtesy.
The only valid reason to yell is if there is a safety issue or emergency. Otherwise, speak to me like the adult I am and I will do the same.
We wouldn’t expect anything else from all of our our other interactions with people day-to-day, would we? Why should our interaction with a trainer be any different?
Let me preface this by saying that I didn’t read all the responses. But I really feel it depends not only on the person, but also on the mood or how the ride is going.
My first trainer was encouraging at first, and once he became more and more comfortable with me, the helpful hints started to turn into yelling and belittling comments. Now I know that sometimes you need a swift kick in the butt, but there is a serious difference between, “You need to open your outside rein, block with the inside leg. Try again.” And “Open your damn outside rein! Are you even listening to me?! Why the F*** am I even standing here for?” Its all about how things are said, and what words are used.
Also I feel like some trainers don’t read the mood of their riders. There are going to be certain days, especially for us older ammies, where we come out just off. Be it that we’re nervous for whatever reason, or we don’t feel tight in the saddle, we’ve all had these days. Those are not the days to push our limits. Those are the days to build our confidence.
Keeping all that in mind, riders need to realize that if we want to lesson with trainers like George Morris or Christina Schlusemeyer, you have to not let to jibes get to you. You know going in how those trainers are, so don’t be so sensitive to the constructive criticism you knowingly are walking into.
