Interesting article on doing less (trainers)

[dmveventer]

@Ajierene

Rent: avg $1300 (per the internet)
Power costs (based on what I pay with a little padding): $200/month (kind of depends on if the unit has centrail air or not - a lot of rentals around me do not)
Gas for a car: let’s say $200/month (mine is $30/fill up and I fill up 4-5 times a month - but half the residents of my neighborhood don’t own cars)
Average Day care: $1100/month (per the internet)
Groceries: um…$500/month sound right for a family of 4?

So, total $3300/month

$60K/year - we’ll go with your number of $49K take home, which is about $4K per month.

So they are not putting to retirement in an ideal fashion If at all) and probably don’t have a lot of cushion if something should happen and it isn’t IDEAL - but it also isn’t living on the street. So…the ends are meeting…just about.

Nope, not even close. Gas is at least double what you’ve estimated, and I would add at least another $300 for groceries for a family of four (the lowest USDA estimate is $1k a month so that’s still lowballing it). Say another $100-ish for car/renters insurance, $50 for internet, another $50 for a budget phone plan and that’s your $4k take home gone before you even get to any other utilities, healthcare, car maintenance, toiletries, etc. They’re not saving for retirement, they don’t have health insurance, and they definitely can’t afford to do anything fun. Your hypothetical family is not breaking even, they’re in the red each month as a baseline and, like most Americans, they’re one emergency away from financial ruin.

Literally all the data is against you on this one. I’m not sure where you’ve been getting your numbers but basic living wage for a family of four in your county is estimated at $91k according to the MIT data, and that assumes one of the adults is staying home with the kids - if both work it goes up to $115k. A single person with no kids would need $50k just to “make ends meet.” The fact that people technically can survive on less (by taking on debt and putting off basics like healthcare and retirement) doesn’t make it affordable or sustainable.

[kaya842]

@dmveventer

The fact that people technically can survive on less (by taking on debt and putting off basics like healthcare and retirement) doesn’t make it affordable or sustainable.

^^^^

Ajierene seems to be making the point it is possible for a family of four to survive on $60K and a horse can survive on less, but is missing that surviving is not the bar we are trying to set in either situation. Surviving with insane debt, or even just being on the brink of financial ruin constantly due to the incredibly fine line is not (typically) something people would chose (whether for horse or children sake).

Also I wish insurance was that cheap. For 2 adults with great credit and clean driving records (granted we do own two vehicles and opt for full coverage vs just liability) our cars alone are $350/ month. The house is another $200-300 (and we live in a low COL area unaffected by the current natural disasters). Same for groceries and just about everything else. I wish it was that cheap but it’s just not. No matter how much we cut back on the “avocado toast” and “daily Starbucks” (neither of which happen here), it doesn’t make up for the inflated cost of everything else.

[hey101]

@dmveventer

so many trainers are struggling to make a living themselves. Of course they’re shifting towards the upper end of the market for clients, that’s the only thing left.

I personally think there is a large population of starry- eyed young people who luuuuuv horses and think they are trainers. Maybe they are even good riders. But if they don’t know what EBITDA and EIN and 1099 mean without googling they aren’t even close to being able to run a business. I learned all those things through blood sweat and tears over the years.

When I abandoned ship myself and decided to lease my facility I had two questions on the phone before I even bothered to set up an in- person tour- are you prepared to pay a deposit equal to one months rent, and can you modify your liability insurance to name me and my business as named parties. About 80% of the time I could feel the panic because no they couldn’t financially or what do you mean about liability insurance.

I feel for the younger generation, I really do. But a lot of them are tilting at windmills.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Being able to spend 24/7 at the barn learning all this stuff comes at an opportunity cost of time and money that could be spent on other things (like paying work) that many people don’t have.

Also, it’s great if you find a trainer who is willing to share their knowledge with a passionate up-and-coming rider–they absolutely, absolutely do exist. But I’ve also seen starry-eyed kids exploited in this situation (not Safe Sport exploited, but worked to death in not-great barn situations).

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@dmveventer

If your plan relies on the horse being an easy keeper and being happy at the cheapest available boarding barn and never needing specialized shoeing or medication and never having a major vet emergency that’s a terribly irresponsible plan. I also think if you have to forego even minimal retirement contributions, cut out needed expenses for yourself, or rack up debt to get by you can’t afford horses even if you technically aren’t “out on the street.”

omg, all this. There are so many insanely privileged people in the horse world. And then once you get past that top tier, I see people who are struggling to stay in horses criticized because they do stuff like prioritizing house/retirement expenses and people who don’t idealized. I used to romanticize that myself. Then I got old. And much poorer.

[FitToBeTied]

@Montanas_Girl

Lifestyle inflation is not nearly as big a problem as is the fact that wages, particularly at the lower socioeconomic level, have not kept pace with overall inflation for the entirety of my adult life.

This caught my attention and I post this just for the sake of accuracy. The median wage (IRS Data) for the country in 1980 was 12,850.89. At the end of 2023 (latest available) the median wage was 63,932. So that is a gain of 397%. Inflation over that time was 396% (bureau of labor statistics data).

That’s median wage. Let’s look at hour workers. In 1980, the median hourly wage was 4.82. At the end of 2023, it was 19.24. Adjusting the 1980 hourly rate for inflation would yield an hourly rate of 19.09. So like median wages, the actual hourly rate in 2023 exceeds the inflation adjusted rate of 1980.

I know the wages/inflation comment gets trotted out a lot and maybe at one time is was true. But it is not now. Also, per this discussion, people in the lower economic regions are not buying and boarding horses, so it is not germane to the topic.

[Montanas_Girl]

Not disagreeing with the data you’ve laid out, but I specified in my adult life time in my post, not in my entire life time. Genuinely curious about what the data would look like over a 20-25 year time line, not a 40+ one (I’m a nutritionist, not an economist).

The federal minimum wage has not increased since 2009…Someone working off board is going to be “paid” at or just above minimum wage. From my real-life example, back when I was a student, minimum wage would pay my horse’s full board costs at about 76 hours per month. Today, boarding at the same facility would require 166 hours per month of work. It was doable then; not so much now - which was my point germane to the “working off board” tangent.

[dmveventer]

@kaya842

Surviving with insane debt, or even just being on the brink of financial ruin constantly due to the incredibly fine line is not (typically) something people would chose (whether for horse or children sake).

Also I wish insurance was that cheap.

For sure, a lot of her numbers are best case scenarios and could easily be higher. In this case, I actually live not far from Ajirene (but in a more expensive, higher traffic area) and $100 is what I was paying for full coverage on my older car before I traded in. My newer car is only a little more expensive than that. I’m not sure why our insurance is so cheap considering how horrific our traffic is but I don’t ask questions. But I also have great credit which this hypothetical family probably doesn’t considering they can’t cover their basic costs without taking on debt.

@FitToBeTied

I know the wages/inflation comment gets trotted out a lot and maybe at one time is was true. But it is not now.

You’re assuming that inflation is an accurate measure of cost of living, which it really isn’t. Average rent costs have increased 571% from 1980 to 2022, well above the overall inflation rate. Housing is a huge chunk of most people’s budgets so has an outsize impact on their buying power. People don’t buy the same things or live the same way they did in 1980 so any broad cost comparisons are going to be flawed. I agree that the wages/inflation comparison isn’t simple, but it’s still fair to say that wages have not kept up with inflation and the cost of living.

[Montanas_Girl]

@dmveventer

You’re assuming that inflation is an accurate measure of cost of living, which it really isn’t. Average rent costs have increased 571% from 1980 to 2022, well above the overall inflation rate. Housing is a huge chunk of most people’s budgets so has an outsize impact on their buying power

That’s a great point. In 2010, I was renting a 1 bedroom apartment in the town where I currently live for $395/month - including water/sewer, trash, and cable/internet. Today? That same apartment, still managed by the same company, rents for $900/month.

[FitToBeTied]

@dmveventer

You’re assuming that inflation is an accurate measure of cost of living, which it really isn’t.

You do know that the inflation incorporates housing costs as well? If you are not going to use the official government data what are you going to use. There is always going to be locality differences but since we’re not talking about specific localities, I think it is fair to use the government data.

@Montanas_Girl

Genuinely curious about what the data would look like over a 20-25 year time line, not a 40+ one (I’m a nutritionist, not an economist).

For that period, the 2000 median wage adjusted for inflation would be 18.11 versus the 19.24 it really is. Why the difference between using 1980 and 2000? The early 80’s were a period of high inflation.

[Montanas_Girl]

@FitToBeTied

Why the difference between using 1980 and 2000?

Well, 20 years, for starters…

[enjoytheride]

Actually locally barn help pay starts at $15 an hour now and I have seen it as high as $20 an hour including pto, vacation, and health insurance. Anyone advertising for less than $15 an hour gets attacked online pretty hard. A boarder working off board is paid about the same.

However, barns are still struggling to find help for a variety of reasons.

Minimum wage here is 7.25

[dmveventer]

@FitToBeTied

You do know that the inflation incorporates housing costs as well? If you are not going to use the official government data what are you going to use. There is always going to be locality differences but since we’re not talking about specific localities, I think it is fair to use the government data.

I am using the government data. Rent costs are only one factor in the CPI, and get averaged out with other costs that aren’t increasing or are decreasing. There’s some weighting involved, but the CPI assumes consumers are also buying fun stuff like clothing and sporting equipment every month so the weighting is skewed to accommodate that. The CPI only considers rent for housing costs and doesn’t factor in home prices or ownership costs like maintenance, property taxes, etc, and it only asks current renters what they’re paying for rent right at that moment so it’s always going to lag behind since leases aren’t updated monthly. It’s not a perfect metric by any means which is why these conversations can’t be tied to one statistic or another.

[Texarkana]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Being able to spend 24/7 at the barn learning all this stuff comes at an opportunity cost of time and money that could be spent on other things (like paying work) that many people don’t have.

Also, it’s great if you find a trainer who is willing to share their knowledge with a passionate up-and-coming rider–they absolutely, absolutely do exist. But I’ve also seen starry-eyed kids exploited in this situation (not Safe Sport exploited, but worked to death in not-great barn situations).

Who says it has to be 24/7?

You don’t have to be exploited as a working student to learn. You don’t need a professional trainer to teach DIY horse sense.

There are opportunities everywhere if you look for them.

[Texarkana]

@enjoytheride

Actually locally barn help pay starts at $15 an hour now and I have seen it as high as $20 an hour including pto, vacation, and health insurance. Anyone advertising for less than $15 an hour gets attacked online pretty hard. A boarder working off board is paid about the same.

However, barns are still struggling to find help for a variety of reasons.

This is absolutely true in my state where the minimum wage is $15.

But many states still abide by the federal minimum wage of $7.25, and as a result, barns still want to pay workers at that rate.

[RedHorses]

I think comparing buying power of then vs current wages would be more relevant than median wages. Without knowing how accurate the source is, I recently heard someone say that current wages would need to be $66/hour to match the buying power of their grandparents (possibly great grands).

[FitToBeTied]

@dmveventer

It’s not a perfect metric by any means which is why these conversations can’t be tied to one statistic or another.

You claimed housing costs have gone up 576%. Where is that data from? I looked at the local market and rents here are up about 50% over twenty years. So your data point from whereever you got is not particularly valuable without knowing the locality. I live in a rural horse area. I’d bet you’d see those high rent increases in metropolitan areas but not areas like this.

The bottom line back to the origin of the thread is that for equine operations to stay in business they are going to have to raise prices. Raising prices will cut out the lower end of the market. The reality is that horses are a luxury item and will become even more increasing so in the future. I will say the harsh reality thing. If you have horses and are always scraping for money then maybe you shouldn’t have horses. What are you going to do if you horse needs surgery or some other expensive vet procedure? What are you going to do when the price of hay and feed goes up because some weather related incident wipes out big farms that are producing the hay or grains?

[enjoytheride]

Minimum wage here is 7.25 and I have not seen a barn offering even $10 without heavy backlash. I pay kids more than $10 an hour to pick up hay out of my field and provide a meal.

[Texarkana]

I think you can slice and dice the COL data any way you want, but what the metrics don’t show is the “creep” that has made life more expensive.

For example- how many more electronics do we have in our homes today that raise our electric bill? Who is still living without air conditioning in the summer?

Upthread we had a conversation about smartphones. Being able to survive without one or with a woefully outdated one is unfortunately not the norm.

Sure, we’ve “cut the cord” for landlines and cable, but replaced those costs with cell providers, an ISP, and a bunch of streaming services.

And don’t get me started on the impact of technology and influencers on kids. Even if you skip the pricey Disney vacations, kids are going to want expensive stuff. Middle class parents all handle those requests differently.

There’s just a lot more expenses you are pressured to have today to “keep up with the Jones’” in the middle class.

[Texarkana]

@enjoytheride

Minimum wage here is 7.25 and I have not seen a barn offering even $10 without heavy backlash. I pay kids more than $10 an hour to pick up hay out of my field and provide a meal.

I’m happy to hear that!