I’m guessing the reason these threads take this turn is because it really isn’t that common to see adults consistently riding inappropriately small ponies.
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KBC brings up a very good point.
The videos shared were not just about a gross size mismatch, but also some clearly abusive riding. I would have been almost as appalled at the videos with a smaller, pony appropriate, rider. The fact that the riders were way too big for the pony and physically able to be MORE abusive is just the crap cherry on top of this manure sundae.
I think the segue from talking about the size mismatch in these photos to “How big is too big?” and fat shaming is an obvious one. Yes, it is legitimate to discuss rider size and fitness as it relates to suitability to a certain horse. Yes, it is legitmate for lesson programs to impose size/weight restrictions on their horses to protect them. However, those two legitimate concerns open the door for lots of railbirds to criticize and fat shame riders based on their own biases and prejudices.
What this subject needs is better research that considers multiple variables, and more hard facts.
Also, I have re-read the quoted piece by Dr. Deb Bennett and am even less persuaded. She offers NO clinical data to support her opinion, other than referencing articles in Equus. She offers absolutely no factual basis, no studies, no data for her statement that no horse alive can carry more than 250 pounds for more than a few minutes. She may be an expert in biomechanics in horses, but this is an opinion piece showing a great deal of bias. (I sincerely hope the lovely horse that has hunted regulary and happily with me for years doesn’t hear that Dr. Deb thinks he shouldn’t have carried me longer than a few minutes.)
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Good god, my arab is my sister from another mister (species). We both gain weight on nothing but forage (hay for her, salad for me) if we’re not getting enough exercise.
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The other things that are truly appalling about the video are:
- the “rider” is an internationally known and successful rider, and the level of abuse he’s doling out to the pony would be unacceptable for any rider, much less someone who is supposed to know better. One extra issue here is that he then went on to try to justify the behavior and insult those people who were criticizing his “techniques.”
- the laughter of the person filming the video. I don’t know who that was but at the very least it suggests (to me) that abusive behavior is pretty commonplace in this riding establishment.
The video is beyond the pale in so many ways.
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But you were the one that started the thread talking about weight. Perhaps I’m misreading the original post…
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And there’s the assumption…that overweight and obese people aren’t doing that.
There’s quite a lot of research that shows that many are, and they still aren’t able to lose weight. Gut bacteria is one theory getting some traction (and indeed, changes in gut bacteria are what are associated with the medication that I took).
There was a male teacher at the high school I went to who was very very obese - think “my 500lb life” type of obese. His lunch was an apple. He was open about his struggles, and he was barely eating anything. We know now that starvation doesn’t allow for weight loss too (we didn’t in the 80s).
Now - does this have anything to do with riding? Not really, other than the judgements from riders who do not have it so hard.
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That is my assessment of her piece as well. She routinely, in my opinion, oversteps her data, which is one of the cardinal sins for scientists.
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Yes. I like the basic anatomical information in Deb Bennett’s work. It has given me more precise ways of seeing some of the basic components of bone and joint angle. I like that she talks about functionality for different goals, that she is not misled by a pretty face, and that she is able to distinguish between basic conformation and later injury like hunters bump. In particular she is good for articulating why a horse that might look nice on first glance is actually weak in some area. I haven’t seen a more consistent or comprehensive approach to conformation analysis.
That said, yes, as soon as she moves beyond her anatomic speciality, she is in the same subjective realm as many horse people. She has no access to do original scientific research on her ideas about training or rider weight or whatever. She does make a good effort to find reputable sources for her claims, hence the reference to the cavalry manual rules on weight.
But a cavalry horse also worked much harder day after day than a modern recreational or show horse.
Here’s the thing. Do modern horses ridden by heavier people consistently break down at a higher or faster rate than horses doing the same job ridden by smaller people? There’s a high breakdown rate in reiners, apparently. Is it consistently lower for riders who weigh less?
I have seen enough broken down horses in kiddie lesson programs and young dressage prospects crocked by slim trainers with bad technique, to know that smaller riders can cause big damage.
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I do think that weight is an issue. For any of us.
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I would say that in order to do this analysis we need to have horses in the same sport. Reining and cutting are ridiculously hard on a horse’s body, and with the futurities so popular, they start them hard very,very young.
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Yeah I don’t buy her statement either.
I watched my senior mom ride her Amish plow Belgian around. For sure tack and rider exceeded 250. Mom was happy. Belgian was happy. Belgian toted my mom at the walk and trot in their yard for a year before getting promoted to chief lawnmower when my mom got sheep. I’d probably throw hands if someone had the audacity to tell me Mom shouldn’t have gotten to ride her horse. Probably the Belgian would throw hooves.
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Exactly. They aren’t doing forced marches on lean rations every day and expected to charge the enemy lines at the end of it.
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Ok, but I was following that conversation and it seemed like you were pinning the weight conversation on another poster. My confusion!
Bottom line, is that you cannot compare this abusive dude and someone who is carrying an extra pandemic 20, 30 or even 50. The math is grossly off.
Let’s say that abusive dude is a standard healthy weight of about 160 for most men of about 5’9". I’m going to assume he’s around 5’9", because most Brazilian men are not super tall (loads of assumptions, but while we’re in the business of assuming here we go). Most small shetlands weigh between 400 and 450 pounds. If I take the top end of the shetland, he weighs 36% of the Shetland’s weight. If I take the low end of the shetland it’s 40%.
In order to weigh 40% of my 1100 pound gelding’s weight, I’d have to weigh 440 pounds in which case I’m pretty sure I’d find mounting so difficult that it wouldn’t matter, much less riding for any length of time. In order to weigh 36% I’d have to weigh 396 pounds. These are pretty large numbers, and I don’t think we’re seeing much of that, even on the internet. I mean, this gentleman was 445 lbs. This woman is 396 lbs (and she’s even tall for a gal).
I’m definitely NOT fat shaming in any way shape or form. I have a LOT of compassion for folks that find themselves in the predicament where weight loss doesn’t happen the “normal” way that all the skinny folks say it should.
But what I AM saying is that most riders do not approach the weights that one would consider abusive by any stretch of the imagination. Close to 20-25%? Sure, I’m sure some do, on fit horses, and I’m sure the horses are fine. 35-40%? Probably not as often as people who make statements about 200lb people would think.
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Charge into firing guns no less!
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What a great story that is, shows what people can achieve when they get the right support and actual help.
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I was also thinking when I read the report that 34% sounded like a super conservative estimate. That pony isn’t a particularly heavily built Shetland and he doesn’t look that short. If I were guessing I would have guessed 420ish for the pony and 165 for the rider.
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Not a statistical relevant sample, and purely anecdotal evidence, but back when dinosaurs were a recent memory, I galloped racehorses and I started out at an appalling heavy 165 pounds. (I dropped the weight so precipitously galloping 10 - 12 a day I smile to remember it.) Most of the horses I broke and trained were long yearlings, only a few had been raced.
I was VERY concerned about my weight on the babies, as was the trainer. But they were desperate enough for riders that they hired me; and my willingness to ride anything helped. They did assign horses to the various riders with weight and/or nuttiness in mind.
But here’s the funny thing. I broke all my babies being very conscious of my weight - got 'em out of the round pen early, stood up off their backs as soon as possible, no quick starts and stops, no sharp turns. The farm where I worked also had a hot shot 110# rider who was going for her license, who rode them in the round pen til exhausted, never stood up unless we were working, and didn’t think rough transitions and turns were a problem. Wanna know how many of my horses stayed sound as opposed to hers? Well, there is the selection bias - the lightly boned, immature horses all went to her, the big, mature, good boned ones went to me, as well as the older ones. But the difference in the percentage of our horses that made it to the track was profound. All of mine made it. Lots of hers didn’t.
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And I always wonder… did they keep the weight off? For the vast majority, the answer is probably no. I know so many people who have had weight loss surgery, in particular. They have passed the “ability to diet” pre-screen, gotten the surgery, dropped weight like crazy… and then a few years later they are almost as heavy, or even heavier, than they were at the start. AND they still aren’t able to eat “normally.” Is it really worth it?
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And there we have the crazy part of the problem, the stats for maintaining significant weight loss are very very poor. I know to my cost that problem, lost 140, gained most back, AND NEVER REALIZED IT WAS HAPPENING. Yes I know that sounds crazy to ‘normal’ people, but seriously it just kind of happened. I am a well educated, mature woman, and did not see it happening.
On bad days it feels so depressing that you don’t want to even try to keep fighting the weight, because “what’s the point” but if you don’t try you won’t win right?
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Why is is so important to defend the right to be overweight, and participate in a sport ?
In most sports, it is necessary to be maintain fitness just to be able to compete,
Now, not all riding is competitive, but the question remains. No one here is supporting the idea of being fit and maintaining a healthy appropriate weight. It’s all about “hey, I am heavier than I should be. And you need to agree that’s ok!”
I find that interesting.
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