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Interpretation of "Round?"

Dressage
#41

Thank you so much for everyone’s input. :slight_smile: I’m really happy the dressage coth communtity has been so kind in helping me along my journey.

I talked with my trainer today. I expressed concerns that while riding in lessons I am able to at least do what she is asking, but on my own I don’t have the feel to replicate what she is looking for. I told her what I am feeling is right and what she is telling me is right are two completely different things. She was very nice about it and told me the goal is to have my horse’s head wherever she wants it so that horse doesn’t get in a habit of “setting her frame.” High, low, deep, whatever, she should be able to put the head anywhere she wants it and horse should respond.

I told her I simply do not feel comfortable riding alone without eyes telling me what is going on because my feel is wrong, and she understood and said we will work on this more. I’m glad I posted here though because I wouldn’t have felt compelled to express my concerns. Sometimes talking with someone of authority can be very intimidating but I feel confident now in what she is asking me to do, I just need to be verbally reminded that what I am feeling, whatever it is, is correct and that is the feel I need to replicate on my own.

I suppose it is more of a gymnastic exercise. My horse, admittedly, does sort of “get set” in a way that she thinks I want and will not come out of that frame unless I really ask her.

At the end of the day it wasn’t exactly what I was hoping would happen… I want to school her correctly on my own but if I can’t trust my feel I don’t see how that is going to happen. Trainer is hopping on her this week to show me what she’s looking for. I’ll film that ride as well.

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#42

I have nothing of advise past to say that as a learner, I find it incredibly valuable to watch videos of myself riding and to watch and video other people riding my horse.

I also am new to dressage, and ended up with a green horse, so lessons on a schooled horse that already knows what it is doing so I can feel what I am supposed to feel are in my immediate future.

The rest of my post isn’t me telling you what I think, more of me kind of asking if what I think about it is on the right track, because I am also learning, and am really interested in your post…

The way I am understanding things that have been explained to me though, are that the “round” you may be looking for are tied to impulsion, which comes after rhythm (which you say you have 95% of the time). Suggests to me that maybe your horse is still trying to figure out what you are asking of her.

I can really see a difference in the body in the two pics you posted. In the second pic, forget the head, look at the body. This horse looks like it is driving itself forward from his hind end. It looks more athletic in its movement. Almost to me like its topline is slightly uphill? None of this starts with headset, rather, I think headset is sort of a byproduct of contact and impulsion. am I close in my thoughts here?

As a side, I like the first horse a lot. Has a nice expression. Is that you on your horse or just a photo from the internet?

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#43

Thank you akdraft, those are just photos from the internet. The first picture is definitely a step in the right direction. at least it’s not completely disengaged. So, that leads me to believe we’ve got at least one piece of the puzzle in place. We are far from being at picture 2, but those are the goals we are striving for.

#44

You can’t judge your own riding and your horse from a picture that isn’t either you or your horse. Post pics or a video of you or your trainer on your horse.

6 Likes
#45

OP, there is absolutely no point in speculating what your trainer is trying to accomplish or what is really going on without a picture of you riding your horse (video would be even better). We are all grasping at straws based on what you’ve told us, which may or may not be applicable to your specific situation. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Have you seen videos of your ride while your trainer is asking for this lower frame? Do you have any kind of mirrors? Has she explained exactly why she is asking for this or what she doesn’t like about where you want to put your horse normally?

Maybe your horse isn’t actually coming over its back properly and your trainer is asking for “lower” so you will lengthen the reins. Horses can set their head in a frame using incorrect muscles, like the underside of their neck. And if your horse is bad about getting stuck in one frame, they’re not truly through as they are bracing or holding somewhere to achieve that “stuck” feeling. If that is the case, it probably is a good thing for you to ask your horse to be lower at least sometimes so your horse learns it can let go of that tension.

But still, I am just guessing. What your trainer is asking you to do could be a perfectly legitimate exercise that may be beneficial. We on COTH have no way of telling you for sure just based on your words. I really think the only issue here is that your trainer may need to be better at teaching and explaining to the rider what she wants and is trying to achieve.

I do hate the term “rounder” being used too much. I think trainers should be more specific. Or at least be able to explain exactly what they want and how to accomplish it if asked for clarification. Never be afraid to ask your trainer for more explanation. You are paying them to teach you. Questions should be expected and encouraged.

#46

I’m glad this thread was valuable to you and that you cleared things up with your trainer. It has been a helpful reminder to me as an instructor that sometimes my instructions may not be clear to the rider if I don’t use different terminology, change up the exercises if what we are doing isn’t working, and generally ask more questions of the student. What do you feel now? Is she better or worse? Is she round? How much weight do you feel in the reins? And so on. Good luck in your journey with your horse!

#47

@TequilaMockingbird, thank you so much. this is absolutely wonderful insight. I think i’ve mentioned this on previous posts but this is my very first time working with a trainer 1 on 1. In my early years we (as riders at my various facilities) were told to “sit down and shut up,” shall we say. questions were discouraged, possibly because the instructor didn’t know the actual reason behind what we were doing, only that “this is the way it’s always been done.”

So asking my trainer technical questions makes me nervous, because what if she gives me that same response? The good news is luckily it hasn’t happened and she’s been more than helpful in explaining what she wants. But still, I remain slightly confused. I am a very analytical thinker, as another poster mentioned, and I must understand all the details of what I am being asked to do so I can create the bigger picture in my mind. I’ve been led astray by many bad instructors. As Scribbler also said, I lack trust in my abilities to discern good riding from bad riding as I’ve never had a constant of either.

I will further discuss with my trainer what exactly is going on in the saddle, and film would be incredibly valuable. I am completely committed to getting better with my horse. We may never score in the 70s but I think 60 is a reasonable and attainable goal for the two of us.

Sometimes the best people in sport aren’t always the best teachers, but that doesn’t make them bad riders! xD

Thanks so much everyone.

#48

Tell your trainer exactly what you said here.

Tell your trainer you are very analytical and like to have things explained. Tell your trainer also that there may be times when you are overthinking things, so having the trainer able to both explain, and also be able to say “now you are overthinking, shut up and ride” will be useful for both of you. Put your learning style out there in the open just the way you would if you had a physical peculiarity :slight_smile:

You then have a foundation for saying “my analytical mind needs to have this point explained or repeated in order to understand,” without sounding like you are questioning or arguing with the instructor.

You also have a foundation for the instructor saying “let’s just shut off overthinking for now and let me tell you how to physically ride this movement” without you feeling slapped down.

Also, tell your instructor that you haven’t been in a training situation before where you were co-operating with the instructor on training your own horse, so you aren’t always sure when it is OK to ask for clarification and when you just need to take orders.

My experience has been so different :slight_smile: in that I was a self-taught, analytical, rider reliant on books as a teen. I got some thing right, and some things wrong. Then I returned as an adult to good hunter jumper lessons on good lesson horses and had to consciously practice being a “good student.” My instructor was good but not super analytical, so I used to bring her one question maximum a day, usually before the lesson.

Then I ended up with my current horse and current instructor who is both competent and super-analytical, and some of our lessons run way overtime because we end up sitting around talking theory. Interestingly the horse also over thinks things too, and can get quite angry if we don’t agree with her. The upshot of all of this is we’ve become more interested in the process than the quantifiable result, so we may not be a very good model for someone who wants to actively show on a clear time line.

So this is also the first time I’ve been co-operating with a trainer on a specific horse. The balance I need to strike is not being a bit passive, as in my hunter-jumper lessons, but rather taking the responsibility for figuring out how to develop the feel and relationship with the horse to carry on our work when I am lone. But also not reverted to my teenage self and just making up my own training system or getting too carried away with my own ideas.

In retrospect, I think that various problems I’ve encountered with this horse would have been avoided if I’d insisted on more lessons and guidance and training rides at the start, rather than confidently trying to work through things on my own without “bothering” my coach when she was busy or distracted by life.

So I would say keep close to your trainer and lessons for the first couple of years at least while you are getting the basics in place.

#49

Is there anyone IRL you can talk to about some of this? It sounds like the problem is at least as much about having confidence, trusting instructors, and building relationships in the equestrian world you inhabit as it is about understanding basic dressage concepts or developing feel.

I hate to see equestrians dwell so much on things that have happened in the past (like these prior trainers you speak of), as so much of riding is figuring out how stay in the moment and do things now that will set you up for success moving forward, vs. thinking about the mishaps that are in the past. It’s easier to do that well on the instantaneous scale that is required for riding if you’re in good practice doing it on a bigger scale in your life.

Most of us get some terrible instruction at some point or other in our riding lives – how it impacts our journeys depends on what we do with it and how we move on from it. You may have learned some valuable lessons about how to ride from these past situations, and maybe a bit about how not to ride. Now you’ve got an instructor who’s patient and helpful, so take advantage of it and don’t look back. Worrying that the current instructor will become less helpful is like worrying that your horse might to spook – it won’t create a better outcome and it might get in the way of the things that are going well in the moment.

Good luck, keep building your local, real life support network, and never feel bad about asking for clarification when you are confused.

#50

This is really good advice. I found in all aspects of my life, I needed to learn how to be a good student. My high school teachers were mediocre, my college profs were mostly good but it never occurred to me to find a mentor or think of adults as resources to help me figure out my future. It wasn’t until I was in grad school in my 30s that I was able to do this.

#51

I found when I was newer and didn’t know what sources to trust, that it was best to find a couple solid sources and stick only with that. The education will come, but the more sources you go to, the more confusing and conflicting it will become.

It could easily be that your trainer is a fine trainer and what they see if the whole picture, but they are asking for you to fix things in small pieces that don’t make sense to you (at least not now). Which is why people keep asking for video.

It’s difficult to say for sure without actually seeing.

#52

Ok this made me laugh…

“now you are overthinking, shut up and ride” will you

i MAY have heard that a few times…

2 Likes
#53

But this might not be wrong to say from the trainer part.

While teaching, I had to say it quite a few times because students would keep talking and talking and talking ; about what they were feeling , what was wrong, telling me what they were doing…

Like, as a trainer I see what is wrong, I see what you are doing and all your efforts.
That’s why I can tell you what to do while you are riding. We take breaks to clarify stuff and all.
A little word here and there or answers to my questions is ok… constant blabbing? Not so much.
It takes a lot of energy and skills to ride and to talk about it at the same time.

So while students are talking, they are not riding…

My trainer always said « People can focus on 3 things at the time. Be sure these 3 things are important. »

Constant blabbing isn’t.

1 Like
#54

I normally only ask detailed questions during walk breaks or if I’m really not sure what my trainer is asking for.

Otherwise I might ask an occasional thing like “is my horse in front of the vertical” or “is she crossing over better;” things that help me compare what I’m feeling from the saddle to what is actually happening. I don’t have the luxury of mirrors so asking these things occasionally is really helpful.

But you’ll never get anywhere during a ride if you spend the whole session talking. I think there is a certain subset of riders out there who subconsciously enjoy the social aspects of riding more than the actual riding.

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#55

Lol, it is correct for me…I tend to freeze in a “think loop” rather than talking…to break through it is the shut up and ride…

#56

Because I was just discussing it with a friend of mine who said my horse is not round enough… He recommends the 3 DVDs from Isabel Werth which are available in the USDF store because they explain and show exactly this.

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#57

I think the suggestion of a lunge lesson was a good one. it’s unlikely, but is there a schoolmaster around you could take some lessons on? Try to stop beating yourself up about your feel; it’s so important, but you can only compare what you’re feeling to what you’ve felt before… which is why the opportunity to ride a trained horse can make such a huge difference.

I don’t necessarily have the same issues with the word round, but I tend to think of through more often. A properly through horse will be up through the back, and soft in the jaw and neck (aka, they take a half halt.) When a horse is truly collected and sitting down it feels like their shoulders/heart girth area has ‘puffed up’. It’s why you’ll hear a lot of people using leg at the girth as an aid. One way to think about the spine is that it’s a suspension bridge: there’s nothing holding it (and you!) up other then muscles and the connections at the shoulders and hips. That’s why you want the horse to really be using their abs to create an arc over the back, otherwise, you’re sitting in a big hole and that’s never any fun to ride.

Having feel you can trust makes such a big difference because sometimes you have to break the rules. My upper level horse has an EXTREMELY high set and strong neck. He looks very, very impressive, but boy can he use that neck against me. We’ve been going through a remedial period of ‘stop cheating with your damn neck’ by putting his head and neck down pretty far. The reason being, when you take his neck away all of a sudden his shoulders get free, and he starts moving really well through the back and it feels like we’re really on the right track. It’s important of course to keep him tracking up like others have mentioned.

lt;dr get a friend to video you riding, take a lunge lesson, try to ride a better-trained horse so you can trust your feel.

#58

so the video everyone’s been waiting for is here. I took several, but this one is what I will share. Trainer riding horse. I expressed my problems to her so she came out and gave me a visual lesson.

https://youtu.be/eHVDZkUBdq4

This is where she wants my horse. To me, in my hand when I am on her, it feel very, very low (almost rollkur low) but she is not behind the vertical nearly as much as I thought she’d be.

We are discovering that she is really struggling getting on her hind end. She can be in a frame all day long but actually rocking back for collection is difficult for her. She begins to lean pretty strong into the contact and literally demands the rider hold her up. Trainer is going to be working with her more on lightness.

This horse will not be a UL horse. we tool around in the dressage court. Our competition goals are only what we feel she can do well in. So getting to GP is either not even in the scope of thoughts or way waaaaaaaaay into the future if ever.

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#59

I’m by no means an UL dressage rider but I think she looks pretty typical for a Training level TB. She is on her forehand and tight in her back (which is pretty much exactly the same struggle I have with my horse and pretty standard for TBs that aren’t built uphill). She is not particularly BTV and in no way rolkur-ed.

6 Likes
#60

She looks fine in the video, I agree with above, typical for her build and level. The problem is that your feel does not match what you’re being told. You think when your trainer says rounder, she means, behind the vertical. More likely, is the horse is not on the bit and your trainer is trying to get you closer to that feeling. (I’ve watched someone have this lesson…where the horse was dropped in the back with it’s head up and nose well in front of the vertical, but the rider felt or thought the horse was fine and she (rider) objected to the thought of rounder/deeper/whatever, equating it, as you have, with rolkur…until she saw video of herself.)

It’s fine to have questions, but at some point you just need to listen to your coach and just do it. It’s very hard to know what’s correct until you’ve felt it and had someone tell you in that moment what you have is correct.

All of that is to say, seeing video of your trainer doesn’t really help in this discussion of your riding.

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