Why not have the trainer video you riding your mare and post it?
My guess probably not.
OP, looks to me like your trainer rides fine and your horse looks like a typical shorter backed, fine boned TB at the training level she is appropriately at.
I found a jumping video of the horse and I think the OP, and if that is the OP riding and not her leaser, I’d have to say that the OP needs more work on developing a following hand, independent seat, and still and stable leg. The hips are stiff and the leg unstable, which means the seat is not effective, and all of those things could be hindering your horse from having a transition that is through from behind. All of that coupled with a horse who is still learning this stuff herself, this is not surprising. It’s also not a terrible thing but a phase of learning.
If the trainer is not communicating what you need to do in a way that you understand, you need to tell her. She will have to come up with another way to get the message across. Perhaps you need the information broken down into specific body parts, I’m not sure. This is the challenge of teaching that can’t be accomplished on the internet.
She looks fine. She is learning to use her haunches. Nice TL balance. She is NOWHERE NEAR RK. When she is stronger you can ask her head to come up into a higher “frame” and ask her nose to come out a bit and take more weight on her haunches. Right now, if you ask her to let her nose out even more, I’d bet she drops her back and lets her haunches trail…
i am just watching the IW videos from the 2001 Symposium and I am very impressed!!!
I think they are worth a discussion.
I hope some people have them and may watch them again.
My impression was so far that any discussion about roundness is lacking a common ground from everybody because everybody has their own ideas about it. So they Videos could provide the common ground and people could Discuss better about it. I am curious about everybodys opinion
I love this post!!! For me, it’s all about the hind legs and connection. The horse should be seeking the bit, the hind legs should be striding under. I don’t care how open the throat latch is, but there comes a point when the nose is too poked out for the horse to be honestly on the bit. I want to see supple swinging.
I do think “roundness” is also connected to the horse’s anatomy. Horses with very short necks and small throatlatch spaces have a hard time showing the kind of roundness that seems to be the ideal (face on vertical), but they are, within their own anatomy, round, especially if they are striding through under their center of gravity. By the same token, horses with long necks and lots of throatlatch room, tend to break at the 3rd and go behind vertical–as long as the hind legs are striding through, I don’t mind, but these horses also tend to stride behind.
So should the judges be judging for the ideal, or should they be judging by what the horse’s anatomy allows to meet the directives, given that the engagement is there? That is the million dollar question.
I agree with your first statement… it’s all about connection and the hind legs. Some horses find it easy to stay IFV; for others it is easy to give too much and be a bit BTV… A BIT. We must train for the ideal…
IMHO judges should judge to the standard - not to the anatomy. If that were the case, short legged downhill cow bred QH’s would get the same scores as leggy, supple, uphill WBs. Why not? It’s about training, right? Think about that commercial with the sumo wrestler ice skating. Should he get 10’s because of his anatomy? Of course not. It’s the same in dressage.
SO this concept upsets some folks, BUT we must remember the secret - ride against your own earlier scores, not against the others in the class. Dressage is a personal journey. (or it should be…)
Yes, this is how it is judged, to a standard, for the most part (with some personal preferences). It’s a very old conversation, though, as I remember this topic coming up in reference to Bonfire’s walk as he simply was unable to produce much overtrack and there were conversations on both sides of the argument. My point is simply that that in the question of roundness, you have to look at what the horse can do and judge it by how well connected and engaged the horse is…but if that is case, surely there can be an argument for judging somewhat by how well the horse is meeting the directives within its ability by looking at the other elements of the directives (like, for example, in extended walk–if the horse can’t manage much overtrack, but reaches for the bit, marches and is regular–perhaps it should get a 7 instead of a 6). I’m not saying it should get a 10.
We merged another thread started on this general topic into this one to limit the number of parallel discussions going.
Thanks!
Mod 1
OP I think I understand where you’re coming from in terms of the discrepancy between what you’re feeling and what your trainer is seeing.
I changed to a more classical dressage training style a couple of years ago, and the transition was difficult for me as a rider. I was afraid of using too much hand, frustrated that my muscle memory was preventing me from riding how my trainer was asking me too, and unsure of what I was supposed to be feeling. It was hard for my horses as well, because I was asking them to do new things without great skill or feel.
I persevered because I trusted my trainer (I thought they and their students rode beautifully) and with a lot of work on my position, my horses and I have come along in leaps and bounds.
It sounds like you’re going through the same thing, where your frame of reference needs to change. Communicate with your trainer as you have been, listen to your horse and I’m sure you’ll be fine 
Ok I guess nobody watched these videos 
It is kind of sad because they answer a lot of questions and misunderstandings in these discussions… They are available in the USDF store BTW.
I doubt anyone will spend 20$ per video (60$ total) just to keep this thread alive.
No judge can judge to “the horse’s ability/conformation” - they have to use the overall standard. How does the judge know that it is a conformation limitation versus a training/rider limitation?
But the judging does consider all those other elements as well - so lack of overtrack will knock the score down, but good reach and energy are considered. And I will tell you a little secret about the walk - a horse with lack of overtrack may not do well at the extended walk, but it is generally much easier to collect that same walk, so they often make up points in the collected walk work. Big, swingy walks are VERY difficult to collect.
I assume you haven’t seen them… Its a pity.
Links? Or do we have to buy?
OK $60 is a lot! Especially for 17 year old videos. Too much for just an idle browse for a chat thread.
Well bless your heart sweetie.
Wow, Not really sure what to answer…
first, The last time I posted a link, you reprimanded me. So now I try to avoid to post links in order to hurt nobody’s feelings…
and yes 60 is a lot. I believe you get the concept already with part 1. that would only be 20…
Well you are talking about an amazing symposium with the current #1 rider in the world. She does not do a lot of public clinics, so this is something special. It shows her method very good and this method produced many many international horses. You make it sound like it’s out of date (17 years old) so now I wonder if you even know who she is??
And the last sentence is even more interesting…so you basically chat?? The content doesn’t matter to you?? You are not interested in improving your riding ?? Good to know …
i was even hoping somebody from COTH attended this symposium but obviously too long ago
And as an example 2 videos which demonstrate what watching the videos and trying to follow the instructions did for me…
video from a couple of weeks ago
Video from today
https://youtu.be/w6DdMZ4u8BA
IMO it shows what difference it makes if a horse is round…
I’m seeing a chicken and egg argument here, and I don’t think it’s the ROUND that made the difference in the video. What is immediately, obviously different to me in the two videos is the difference in TEMPO - in the first video, the horse is sort of lollygagging along, and cannot create a true connected, round outline because there’s simply not enough energy coming from the hind end. There were moments (particular the diagonals) where the tempo picked up, and the horse became softer and more steady in the contact. In the second video, the horse is actually coming forward, which allows him to be round.
I admit, I do not own and will not be purchasing the IW videos from the older symposium. I DO remember watching a fair bit of the available video of IW’s symposium from last year’s World Cup in Omaha, and enjoyed what I saw. I remember being pleasantly surprised, as I’ve never been a particular fan of IW - her horses always seemed to have a certain style that just wasn’t appealing to me (Weihegold being the exception). I certainly take nothing away from her success though - she HAS consistently made international-caliber horses over a span of time that speaks for itself.
