Introducing myself and few questions to those that hang around the "western" section

[Aces_N_Eights]

You may have seen me posting for the last week or so and lurking through here, thought I would introduce myself and ask a couple of questions. Also hope you don’t mind me digging up some older threads that have piqued my interest!

Hello!

My husband and I live in NE Nevada working on a ranch. We run about 1000 pairs and on a good year(we are in a drought now) also run any where from 1000-5000 yearlings in the summer. We have about 7 of our personal horses, take in a few colts for friends every once in awhile and the ranch runs about 30 head of saddle horses. (Of course winter time is slow so I have the time to cruise the interwebz )
My husband has a background of ranching/cowboying, working feedlots, hauling cattle and working rodeo stock contractors. I have also cowboyed and worked for various trainers(cutting, reining and cowhorse) as an apprentice and eventually as an assistant trainer. Not saying that I am worth a pile a beans at any of those things, but all great learning experiences! I do show a little mostly at our local stock horse contests and also participate in ranch rodeos.

HOWEVER, I have always been fascinated by the “other side”. Secretly, I would love to try 3 Day eventing and learn more about english riding but have only ridden in an English saddle once in my years.

This leads me to my questions, since I have been lurking I have noticed many of you that post in the western section seem to have been English/Dressage riders (please forgive my ignorance and lack of proper terminology) that either ride both English/Dressage and western or converted to western. I hope you all will be willing to satisfy my curiosity since you are both English and western riders. Maybe you can put things into perspective for a gal that knows nothing about English riding.

First question:
I have noticed that many of you are Buck fans.
Why Buck? Because of the way he teaches was it easier for you to convert your English teachings to western? Are there other clinicians or trainers that feel make the cross-over well? Or was it the Buck movie that inspired you to try western riding?

Second question:
For those that have converted or ride both English and western, do feel that the term “collection” is the same for both disciplines? Or is the English or Dressage version of collection feel or defined differently than what western riders think and feel? Also I would love to see some pictures of what you feel are good examples.

Looking forward to your responses!

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Hi, Aces and Eights, and welcome. I hope you have better luck at cards than your namesake.

I’ll take a stab at the questions in your first paragraph.

I rode huntseat for years - and still do - but my instructor used a lot of Buck Brannaman’s techniques. I knew who he was from the movie, Buck, and also from his book, The Faraway Horses, but I didn’t know a whole lot about how he trained horses. Then I found a video where Buck started a colt for a benefit in Buffalo, NY. I loved it, because it contained many of the same concepts my instructor was trying to teach me. It was great having a video I could rewind and watch it over and over till I got it.

Since then, I’ve audited one of his clinics and got the DVD set made by the lady who filmed the Buck movie. It’s a good reference to have around.

I’m afraid I don’t know anything much about any other clinicians, so I can’t answer the second question in your first paragraph.

As for the third - many people where I live ride western. I started out riding western, but switched to hunt seat because that’s what the better instructors in my area taught. I recently came back to western because my huntseat instructor thought it would be fun for me and my horse - he’s from North Dakota and was western-trained when I got him. He put up with four years of doing it my way, huntseat, so now I’m trying it his way, for a change.

As for your second paragraph - sorry. I don’t know anything about dressage and I don’t know much about western, so I can’t make any comparisons. As far as the huntseat definition of collection - I understand it as having the horse between your legs and your hands. Which I think may be Kind of like western collection, in that the horse is available to do what you ask?

[Aces_N_Eights]

Thanks pAin’t Misbehavin’ ! I’m not dead yet, so I guess that makes me slightly luckier than Bill Hickok ;D

Appreciate your answers. Very Interesting!
Already I am learning something. I didn’t know that there is a difference(perhaps?) between hunt seat and dressage, let alone English riding(generally speaking) and western as far as collection is concerned.
Maybe I should give a little background on why I ask this question about the difference in collection, if there is one, between English and western.
On another forum quite some time ago a discussion was going on about collection or maybe it was about western dressage, one person mentioned that possibly the closest that western riding came to dressage or collection is the Californio/Vaquero style of riding.
Another said that no true collection can from riding a horse in a “big bit”, meaning a spade, or without riding a horse “on the bit”. This came from a higher level Dressage person that I am fairly sure has never ridden western, let alone a bridle horse. I had posted a couple of links to some pictures of Bruce Sandifer riding a couple different horses, some that I thought were good examples and some that were okay. I had asked their opinion if they thought it was collection or not. The person couldn’t get over the equipment used so therefor it was difficult to come to a conclusion. Ever since then it has been bugging me and would love to hear some opinions of people who have ridden “both” ways.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7461468]
You may have seen me posting for the last week or so and lurking through here, thought I would introduce myself and ask a couple of questions. Also hope you don’t mind me digging up some older threads that have piqued my interest!

I did notice, and I’m glad you paused to introduce yourself - welcome!

Hello!

My husband and I live in NE Nevada working on a ranch. We run about 1000 pairs and on a good year(we are in a drought now) also run any where from 1000-5000 yearlings in the summer. We have about 7 of our personal horses, take in a few colts for friends every once in awhile and the ranch runs about 30 head of saddle horses. (Of course winter time is slow so I have the time to cruise the interwebz )

Sounds like heaven to me . . . :yes:

. . . I have always been fascinated by the “other side”. Secretly, I would love to try 3 Day eventing and learn more about english riding but have only ridden in an English saddle once in my years.

[B]Eventing is fun! Eventing is a dressage phase, a XC phase, and a stadium phase. There’s also h/j land which is divided into hunters (horses are judged on their way of going, jumping style, manners, and “look”; jumper are judged on time and how many rails are dropped; then there’s equitation, where the rider is judged, but of course how the horse goes is a reflection of the rider’s ability so the horse is taken into consideration somewhat, but they don’t have to be as “stylish” as hunters).

[/B]This leads me to my questions, since I have been lurking I have noticed many of you that post in the western section seem to have been English/Dressage riders (please forgive my ignorance and lack of proper terminology) that either ride both English/Dressage and western or converted to western. I hope you all will be willing to satisfy my curiosity since you are both English and western riders. Maybe you can put things into perspective for a gal that knows nothing about English riding.

First question:
I have noticed that many of you are Buck fans.
Why Buck? Because of the way he teaches was it easier for you to convert your English teachings to western? Are there other clinicians or trainers that feel make the cross-over well? Or was it the Buck movie that inspired you to try western riding?
[B]
I am a Buck fan because of a little bit of a long story but I’ll make it short. I have my mustang, Mac (in my blog link below, if you’re interested and bored one day) - he was my first real project horse, from barely broke vs. already good basics. Since I grew up riding english (30+ years - h/j, then eventing, then dressage), that’s the main direction I headed with him. I did buy a western trail saddle for him when I first got him because I wanted to wait for him to fill out a bit before I got a proper dressage saddle. I’d always wanted to ride in a western saddle and love trail riding, so that was my go-to saddle for trails. I’ve never had a “western” lesson, though. So as we proceeded along in our dressage training (with the help of a trainer), we came across a big stumbling block that was evidenced by me getting royally bucked off. The issue was something that I didn’t feel would be addressed by dressage training - both in the application of the training and the expertise of the person I was working with. The main evidence of the underlying issue I was having with him was the brace he carried pretty much at all times.

After hearing so much about them, I got myself the 7 Clinics DVDs and watched and applied the exercises to my work with Mac. Theretofore I had never really done any groundwork except for lunging, so the whole concept was new to me. But I saw a difference right away. On a whim, I went to his website, saw his clinic schedule, and saw that he was coming my way very soon. So I sent my application in and got in! My blog has all of my clinic reports, but to summarize, it was a huge learning experience for me and I got so much from it. So that’s why I’m a fan. I’ve been to some other clinics but his has been my favorite by far.
[/B]
Second question:
For those that have converted or ride both English and western, do feel that the term “collection” is the same for both disciplines? Or is the English or Dressage version of collection feel or defined differently than what western riders think and feel? Also I would love to see some pictures of what you feel are good examples.

[B]IMHO, there is a difference between dressage collection and western collection. To me, western collection is the basic “on-the-bit”-ness of dressage - the horse is on the aids, balanced between seat, hands and legs. He’s accepting the bit, he’s forward and round, and there’s a cycling of energy from his hind end that runs throughout his body.

Dressage collection takes it a step further. In addition to the explanation above, there’s a greater coiling of the loins and carrying of weight on the hocks. The highest GP (grand prix) levels of collection that you’ll see consist of piaffe and passage, one-tempi changes (flying changes every stride), canter pirouettes, etc. Between the general “on-the-bit”-ness and the highest levels of collection are gradual stages that work up to that collection - simple changes, basic flying changes, counter-canter, transitions within gait, backing, leg yield, shoulder in, half pass, etc. It is a very systematic and prescribed progression.

[/B]Looking forward to your responses![/QUOTE]

Here’s an image of Charlotte DuJardin riding Valegro (she won the individual gold in dressage at the last Olympics). This looks like a passage to me. See how the horse is carrying and pushing from behind:

http://theolympicssports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Charlotte-Dujardin-Valegro-at-CDIO-Rotterdam.jpg

Here she is doing a canter pirouette:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02767/valegro_2767566k.jpg

Edited to add this link:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ray-Hunt-Horseman/375889052428523?directed_target_id=0

If you go down to Nov. 3, 2013, there’s a picture of Ray Hunt working a cow. He and his horse are (of course) totally in sync. The horse is what I consider to be “on the aids” but not collected (from a dressage perspective). I think (I could be wrong) that a western person would say the horse is collected, though.

[froglander]

Welcome!

I am still trying to understand things better myself, so probably don’t have much to offer. I take dressage lessons in a western saddle and try and glean understanding from the lovely folks here, as well as I need to watch the “7 Clinics” dvds again.

[re-runs]

First of all WELCOME.

I hang out in the western section the most because I find the people that post here are the most stimulating and the principles that they speak of are the closest to what “true” horsemanship is all about (which is universal and can be applied to EVERY other discipline)… that is even after many years of riding…

Hunters and jumpers

Saddleseat, both Saddlebreds and Arabians

Western riding

A long love of true classical dressage.

With showing and teaching in every one of the above disciplines. (Life is long if you start early, but never long enough to know it all)

After all that, I felt a piece of the puzzle was still missing and found the pathway to seeking that nugget when I first saw Ray Hunt in action. After many R.H. clinics until his passing, I saw Buck do a demo at our local university (way back before he became famous) for the vet students and more of the onion got peeled. Then on to Bryan Neubert and Joe Wolter and through all of them, got glimpses of the Dorrance brothers in their subtlty and their refinement of the art (the horses faces prove what works). I only regret that I never met the Dorrances. I am seeing how horsemanship evolved and how one discipline branched out from the other…really a facinating pursuit in itself. Especially classical dressage and the vaquero tradition.

I still want to dip my toe in ranch working, cattle working and work towards having the same ability I see my mentors use. Now I will never get there but…it is sure fun to have that horizon to focus on.

Here are a couple of places for more bits of knowledge and inspiration…

www.eclectic-horseman.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ray-Hunt-Horseman/375889052428523?directed_target_id=0

( scroll back and observe the pictures of Ray Hunt and Joe Wolter riding and see the lovely balance and harmony of horse and rider in those pictures)

https://www.facebook.com/TBDorrance?ref=stream

http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/forum1/

If you can get ahold of any of the Reiner Klimke series of Training the Dressage Horse, especially of him riding Ahlerich in a snaffle doing all the GP movments…THAT is collection.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7461468]

I have noticed that many of you are Buck fans.
Why Buck? Because of the way he teaches was it easier for you to convert your English teachings to western? [/QUOTE]

I think it’s because he’s one of the few well known clinicians in the western world who always has a few english riders in his clinics, and who has ridden in both “worlds”. He also makes “upper level western horses” ie bridle horses that impress people. He’s knowledgeable about the cue and aid differences generally used on both sides of the fence, and can translate.

Personally, watching one of his clinics was my first exposure to a bridle horse. I’ve worked with a trainer here (Josh Nichol) who is very good in both worlds as well, but hadn’t/hasn’t made a straight up bridle horse. Up until then my exposure to western riding had been trail horses and rodeo horses, neither of which impress the same way a horse trained via the European high school does.

I’ve since been drawn down a path in my western pursuits that doesn’t treat the snaffle as a requirement before hackamore work, so I don’t do things the same way that Buck teaches most people to do in most of his clinics. When I rode with him he said the only reason he uses a snaffle as extensively on a youngster is that he doesn’t want a horse getting used to the concept of a bit for the first time as a two rein horse, but that there was nothing fundamentally wrong with starting a horse in the hackamore. Others have reported him having a list of prereqs that he wants in the snaffle before hackamore use.

The only reason I draw the distinction is that over the years my eye has seen a difference between bridle horses with a strong snaffle start, and those that are brought up through the hackamore progression with no snaffle stage. They’re both bridle horses, but they do develop differently.

[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7461468]
Are there other clinicians or trainers that feel make the cross-over well? [/QUOTE]

Josh Nichol and Harry Whitney come to mind.

I’d suggest NOT looking at western dressage for now for this link, on a related note.

[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7461468]
For those that have converted or ride both English and western, do feel that the term “collection” is the same for both disciplines? [/QUOTE]

A horse is a horse, so the mechanism of balance, posture and weight support is the same. What people mean when they speak of collection is often different WITHIN disciplines, let alone across them.

[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7461468]
Or is the English or Dressage version of collection feel or defined differently than what western riders think and feel? Also I would love to see some pictures of what you feel are good examples.[/QUOTE]

I did this up a while back to prove a point:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/OneOfTheseThingsIsNotLikeTheOther.png
TL: Klimke/Alerich
TR: Richard Caldwell
BL: 2012 or 2013 winner of ranch pleasure at an AQHA show (I think)
BR: some relatively representative WP winner of something.

Among three of these horses (I tried to get roughly the same phase of the same gait), the biggest differences are as a result of conformation. The WP shot is just different, and yet WP riders often speak of collection.

[Emilia]

Welcome to the board, Aces N Eights!

Until recently, I was a long time lurker myself, so I have also just been settling in.

@re-runs;7462611

I hang out in the western section the most because I find the people that post here are the most stimulating and the principles that they speak of are the closest to what “true” horsemanship is all about (which is universal and can be applied to EVERY other discipline)…

Similarly to Re-runs, I enjoy western forum for the quiet, low-key exploration of various concepts in horsemanship.

My favorite “western” authors are Bill Dorrance (“True Horsemanship Through Feel”) and Mark Rashid (earlier books especially). I respect Buck Brannaman and draw from him for inspiration.

I am not trying to make a bridle horse, yet I am interested in different theories of training, so it is helpful to see, how he goes about it.

I dipped into western riding, when I first started to ride in the US. As many European people, I am a sucker for westerns and the type of riding appealed to me a lot.

As a pleasure rider, I have since returned back to “English” style, as it is called in US. I was raised in it, understand it better, and I live on the East Coast, where most cattle comes from their little pasture land, when called. People do not seem to need to round them up/ rope them/ brand them, etc., except for entertainment. That bothers me, so I cannot take part in it.

I have a great admiration for working ranch people, cowboys, and cowgirls.

As for vaquero style and its similarity to dressage- you can check “doma vaquera,” (if you can read Spanish, that would be ideal) and see the tradition and its roots in Spanish riding, which followed the European tradition of thorough training in high collection up to high school movements (mostly for aristocracy and some cavalry). In working environment, periods of high collections were important for picaderos during bull fights and, of course, vaqueros, when working cattle.

As for collection in western vs. dressage, well, I think, the most important objective in training of a riding horse, IMO, is to enable the horse to learn to carry the rider with the least wear and tear on its body. The development of the ability to collect (self-carry) to a certain degree under the rider can assist in that.

Collection, as I was taught it, has several levels. Most horses only need and, perhaps, conformation-wise it is the best for them, a lower level collection, which, in my home country, was called “campaign” collection and is, actually, similar to how many working western horses carry themselves, when well trained (perhaps, little higher head set). It still looks quite loose, horse is roundish, has its weight shifted back, but not profoundly. Horses can travel like that for some time. You do have to put in periods of completely free walk, just like western people do. This type of collection is the one that helps horses to stay rideable for the long time.

The high level of collection takes a lot of slow training and is not achievable by every horse, just as it is not possible for every person to learn & perform intricate ballet movements without getting injured in short or long term. You need an animal with suitable conformation. Any horse should not perform in high collection for extended periods of time and by that I mean more than a couple of minutes at a time.

If you ever watched a ballet performance and see, how periods of “high collection” of dancers change with “loose moments” in quick succession, well, it should be the same with horses worked in high collection.

As for, where to see the collection, well, I don’t really know. I would not look for it in modern dressage competitions. As Re-runs mentioned, you would need to dig up the older books and photos. In true collection, horse’s highest spot is the poll and you can literally see him “sitting” back. There is no curl to the head. It is held back, but the horse is not curling it. Withers elevated. The horse carries himself high, has an air of lightness around him, and there is hardly any visible pressure on reins. They are short, but that’s because a horse “came back to the hand,” not because he was pulled & held there, hence the lightness.

Google old-timers, such as Reiner Klimke, Nuno Oliveira, General Decarpentry, Otto Lorke. Then, compare with modern pictures and see, if you can see the difference for yourself.

[Flash44]

May I come and visit you? I switched to Western due to my son, and rode English most of my life. The “collection” is different. English riders allow their horses to hold the head higher, and feel for the hind end to track underneath. The horse is still really moving forward with impulsion. The “Western” collection has a much lower head with the horse traveling much slower. I think it’s harder to do the Western version correctly because it requires a tremendous amount of strength and conditioning on the part of the horse.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7463417]
English riders allow their horses to hold the head higher, and feel for the hind end to track underneath. The “Western” collection has a much lower head with the horse traveling much slower.[/QUOTE]

Pretty easy to find the opposite situation too:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_oVLvU6_r1E/UB6p3RFiUhI/AAAAAAAAAE0/CtfKxwWFXJw/s1600/collection.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WMLJW9X6BqU/TEia_4s6MlI/AAAAAAAALxg/oIpH2xKJAw4/s1600/trot_vv.jpg

[Fillabeana]

Pretty sick today, and I will wait to tell you my story, but a couple of things:

I have come to believe VERY strongly that there is NO difference whatsoever in the biomechanics of a horse collecting himself correctly, ie in a way that strengthens, co-ordinates, contributes to the athletic development of, keeps the horse SOUND in the long term…regardless of whether you want to do ‘Competitive Dressage’, ‘Classical High School Dressage’, Reining, Reined Cowhorse, Cutting, Saddleseat Park Horse…

There is, however, a BIG difference in what judges of various disciplines idealize as ‘collection’. And many disciplines will reward poor/damaging posture at the very highest levels of their ‘sport’. I see a TON of low/mid level dressage horses with the base of their neck down, a bend between vertebrae C2/C3 to make the ‘face’ vertical-thus a completely braced poll joint…regarded as correct and ‘round over the topline’, as displaying the fundamentals of collection.

And some disciplines are really off. As one example, Western Pleasure as a discipline pretty much rewards only horses with their weight dumped WAY over their forehand. Big Lick Tennessee Walkers are rewarded for…yikes…so there are some disciplines that might speak of collection but yet not get anywhere near it.

I had it (‘collection’) pretty wrong for oh, thirty years, and am finally getting a few glimpses of what I would now call correct collection (with the help of Buck directly, my Ray-Hunt-student-mentor directly, and plenty of studying of Dr. Deb Bennett) with my ‘formerly extremely troubled’ TB gelding.

It feels REEEEAAAALLLLLYYYY different from what I did before. Both with how the horse moves, and how the horse feels about what you are doing. When the horse raises his withers, coils his loins, has zero brace at the poll so his head hangs naturally vertical rather than having to pull his nose back (‘english’) or reminding him to pull his nose back (western).
And for reference, I did have some 70% scores at Training and First Level dressage, in both schooling dressage shows, unrated events, and rated events…so in other words what I was doing was rewarded as ‘correct’.

Ray Hunt used to say (I think it was Ray, someone please correct me if I’m wrong) that collection is something you cannot TAKE from the horse, it is something that must be given.

And…
If you have the brass to go down the fence, or to rope something bigger than a yearling that would just as soon come up the rope at you…
You’d love eventing.

[Aces_N_Eights]

Wow! I came back to a lot of reading material and information!

Thank you for the welcomes along with the effort and time into your responses for answering questions and sharing your story!
I am sure I will have plenty more questions once I get through my required reading list.

But real quickly…

@pocket pony- Thanks for the individual descriptions of the classes, very helpful!Along with the links posted for the collection pics, loved the one of Ray Hunt. It does show a difference between western and dressage.
I am excited to read your blog, I have a soft spot for desert ponies- my first job riding horses as a teenager was starting mustang colts

@froglander- I am learning too, aren’t we all
I took my first lesson from a Dressage trainer last spring in my ranch saddle while visiting family in CA. Oh my! I have never been so sore in my life! During the summer I ride from 8-14 hrs. a day. An 1 1/2 hr. lesson from her about crippled me…LOL!
Props to all of you that can do it!

@ re-runs-
You’ve got quite the resume!
That’s cool that you’ve seen Ray Hunt in person. I never been to a clinic of that sorts so I am a little intrigued. I have met one of Bryan Neuberts boys, he was starting colts at trainers “neighboring” where I worked, I think he started colts the year before I did for the same trainer. Super nice guy, a lot of “kids” riding for trainers in that area used to hang out at the same bar after hours
I have been told that Jim Dorrance used to run the wagon on the ranch we work on in the 60’s. I think there are some pictures in the cook house if I remember right. I will have to go check.

@aktill- I originally was taught that a snaffle was a pre-requisite to the hackamore. I too am trying to get away from it and trying it in “real life situations”, not going to lie, it’s a little scary! The hackamore is kind of what I consider a truth serum, sometimes I don’t want to hear the truth! LOL! It is not a tool you can fake or muscle your way through that is for sure.
Loved the comparison photo, very helpful, which leads me to Emilia’s explanation of the different levels of collection.

@Emilia- To my uneducated eye, I thought your explanation went hand in hand with aktill’s photo. I think it demonstrated the different levels that maybe considered collection for those disciplines or events/classes. Although when I seen the western pleasure pic, I immediately thought of reading that if a horses tail gets caught between the hocks he’s probably not collected. But again I suppose that would depend on level of collection? Maybe having a 2 lb. fake tail tied on might be a factor?

@flash44- Come on out!
Flash, do you think that that conformation differences play a role in the head is carried between English and western?

[Pocket_Pony]

@Aces N Eights;7463844

I am excited to read your blog, I have a soft spot for desert ponies- my first job riding horses as a teenager was starting mustang colts

Mac’s from Nevada! :yes:

What I like about the BB training (or NH, but I really actually hate that term) is that it is about more than what needs to be done to succeed in the show ring. It can absolutely help you improve your horse’s performance in the show ring through various ways (calming, getting in sync, suppleness, responsiveness, forward, etc.), but that’s not the point.

I’m all about learning all I can to be the best horsewoman I can be. Taking this different turn with my horse has had such an impact on me and I think Mac, too. It has been really fun and rewarding and enlightening.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7463829]
I have come to believe VERY strongly that there is NO difference whatsoever in the biomechanics of a horse collecting himself correctly, ie in a way that strengthens, co-ordinates, contributes to the athletic development of, keeps the horse SOUND in the long term…regardless of whether you want to do ‘Competitive Dressage’, ‘Classical High School Dressage’, Reining, Reined Cowhorse, Cutting, Saddleseat Park Horse…

There is, however, a BIG difference in what judges of various disciplines idealize as ‘collection’. And many disciplines will reward poor/damaging posture at the very highest levels of their ‘sport’. I see a TON of low/mid level dressage horses with the base of their neck down, a bend between vertebrae C2/C3 to make the ‘face’ vertical-thus a completely braced poll joint…regarded as correct and ‘round over the topline’, as displaying the fundamentals of collection.

And some disciplines are really off. As one example, Western Pleasure as a discipline pretty much rewards only horses with their weight dumped WAY over their forehand. Big Lick Tennessee Walkers are rewarded for…yikes…so there are some disciplines that might speak of collection but yet not get anywhere near it.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with this and Fillabeana said it better than I could, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Welcome, Aces N Eights. It’s good to have another poster here on the western forum.

I have always ridden both English (hunt seat mostly, a little dressage) and western, but really focused on English. My sister rode mostly western. I think one reason for that was that we made a subconscious decision to try to avoid sibling rivalry in that area so we each stuck mostly to our own discipline.

Right now I’ve got a horse that I ride hunt seat and a mule that I ride western. Honestly, for what I do, I don’t see much difference in riding one or the other. A nice balanced seat serves both disciplines well. However, I acknowledge that these days, my equine activities fall decidedly into the “low level” category and people who pursue higher level, more demanding activities may disagree with that.

I’m not a big fan of any particular clinician or “guru.” I live in an area where the western and Natural Horsemanship clinicians just don’t show up very often. I’ve tried watching videos from some of them, but I guess I lack the attention span and/or time for it. Fortunately, I have some really good local people available to work with. The guy who started my mule under saddle is fantastic and always willing to help me with any problems.

[aktill]

Just for terminology clarity, “Natural Horsemanship” is a trademarked term associated with Parelli. What Buck does is vaquero horsemanship with influences from the Dorrances. Parelli has done amazing things to leach the former off the latter, to the point where most people think they’re synonymous. They’re most certainly not, in either execution or approach.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=aktill;7463782]
Pretty easy to find the opposite situation too:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_oVLvU6_r1E/UB6p3RFiUhI/AAAAAAAAAE0/CtfKxwWFXJw/s1600/collection.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WMLJW9X6BqU/TEia_4s6MlI/AAAAAAAALxg/oIpH2xKJAw4/s1600/trot_vv.jpg[/QUOTE]

Welcome, OP.

A word of clarification regarding the English/Western collection topic and those pictures.

1. The vaquero-style bridle horse should not be confused with any other branch of Western, particularly what goes on the show ring. The comment above about “western collection” involving a much lower head and a hell of a lot of strength on the horse’s part (when done right) doesn’t related to the bridle horse, but to the show horse.

2. The picture of the low-headed horse in English tack is from a breed show of some sort, not of a USEF hunter. I came from hunter world, and IMO, show hunters carry themselves better than that. Much like the (good) western show horse and the lower level dressage horse, their head might be low (but ears never below the withers). But what you see of importance is the shoulders raised. The horse looks likes he’s trotting slightly up hill.

If you think about the biomechanics of collection, you’ll realize that a crucial prerequisite is the horse shifting his weight from his forelimbs to his hind limbs. In order to do that, he needs to raise his rib cage up between his scapulae. When you look at and ride all but the quite advanced horses, you’ll see a relatively low head. You get used to looking for signed of hind end engagement, but it won’t look like the squat of say, the horse doing a canter pirouette. So where the head/neck are doesn’t matter as much as whether or not the horse is raising his shoulders and pushing.

IMO, the reason every one is all jacked up about head/neck position and what relationship with the bit a horse should have to get it is the happy confluence of two bits of both species’ basic body plan.

1. We humans have lots of manual dexterity. We are better at communicating with our hands than, say, our legs or by shifting our weight or changing posture and muscle tension in our core.

2. Because a horse uses his head and neck to balance, if you constrain his head and neck, he will chance what he does with the rest of his body so as to avoid falling over.

This is the reason that all of the request for a horse to “put his head down” seem key to beginning to get a horse to use his hind end more than he would if loose. When he lowers his head, he has to lift up his shoulders or he’ll fall on his face.

See? None of this is about the bit or even the head at all. It’s just an effective way to get to controlling how the horse uses his hind end.

[aktill]

Yep, was really just to prove a point…that being that generalizing really serves little purpose. A lot of people on this board will be crossover english riders whose main experience with western riding will be with one of the show disciplines, but real horsemanship is largely independent of tack.

Any discussion of collection needs to have boundaries…what is it even? Mine is in line with Dr Bennett:
http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf

1. engage abs
2. coil loins
3. raise base of neck

“Going slow” etc has really little to do with collection. It’s perfectly possible to expend huge amounts of time and effort going slowly while doing none of the things on the little list above to any meaningful degree. Is that, then, “collection”? It’s in the eye of the beholder.

[mvp]

Yeah, aktill.

And for the OP. You probably need to divvy up English World more finely for the purposes of this conversation, too.

Dressage can be divided into “classical dressage” and “competitive dressage.” There will be some fighting there. The distinction is made for the same reason that western folks don’t want Western Pleasure-- and particularly the stuff done to those horses–to represent all of western riding.

For my purposes, Classical Dressage is the thing I’d compare to a vaquero-style training goal or way of going. (But with some large differences regarding ideas about how the horse should relate to the bit/ whatever “face equipment” equipment he’s wearing.)

Then there’s the Show Hunter. That horse never looks like he’s got a ton of collection but, much like the well-trained WP horse, he does have a lifted shoulder and he’s pushing from behind. That’s what makes him able to lope along quietly and the power off the ground for a pretty, athletic jump. He looks easy to ride, not a lot of weight in your hand.

Jumpers and equitation horses have even more collection (but also extension) than the hunter. They can be ridden with more visible interference or stronger bits than the hunter.

Eventers take that to the extreme. Remember that by the time you get to a horse selected for success cross country, you picked and conditioned a different animal than the one you chose for something quiet like hunters (or WP) or where collection is valued as in upper level dressage.

The short version of my story is that I’ll learn from the best horsemen I can find… no matter what tack his horses wear. I want a horse that I can ride from my body and using minimal hand, no matter what job we are doing.

I like the biomechanics of dressage. I like the hunter trainer’s goal of making a horse who can carry himself and jump around without me bugging him too much. I like the pedagogy of some of the western folks I have known. Those guys-- the ones who believe in letting a horse alone as much as they can and really getting inside a horse’s head-- have a lot of offer the person who started in English world.

That said, I don’t go in for the discussions of horse training in which the dude extrapolates to the point that he sounds like a cross between Tony Robbins and Aristotle. It’s another, perhaps offensive rant, but I think all that talk is just a bunch of guys who found recovery from being White Males. Had they not been schooled up with their particular set of expectations and ways of thinking about sharing (or taking) power in the world, they wouldn’t make such purportedly remarkable discoveries about how to share power nicely with a horse.

[re-runs]

@ re-runs-
You’ve got quite the resume!

OP, my point was not to brag…the point I wanted to make is that with all that exposure, I was still missing the vital principles that makes a real horseman. I am still on that quest and will be until the day I die.

Also, collection can be thought of as both mental and physical. The description of the physical aspect is easy, but knowing about the mental aspect is a lot more difficult, that is where the all allusive “feel” comes in. Back in the day, I could MAKE horses do things, I could make them assume an outline of the action of physical collection that I desired and that won me ribbons but with out the mental co operation of the horse, it wasn`t really true. Yes, a person has to study biomenchanics to “get it” all, that can not be overlooked to complete a persons understanding of the big picture but the more I live, the more I understand that it is the mental aspect that is the most important, otherwise, especially when it comes to show disciplines, we are just posing.

And now we come back to a complete circle…back to “turning loose” and it`s meaning.

[cowboymom]

A&8’s, I’m more like you. Started in western and am immersed in it here but through this board and a good friend have been incubating an interest in the other disciplines.

I like Buck b/c I’ve met him and followed him way back in the day. One of my husband’s very close friends is a colleague and now friend of Buck’s and works closely with him and I’ve been extremely lucky to be a fly on the wall to the inner circles of the western horsemanship. I know what they care about (horses) and that they understand they have to help people to help horses. And I know that they burn out and want to go home and spend months on their own colts and improving their horsemanship. I have a deep profound respect for them and spend a lot of time cringing when I see the term “cowboy” used disparagingly here on this board.

As a rule, I see more respect extended by the western trainers toward dressage/eventing than the opposite.

I personally think that the conformational nightmares created by the QH industry make riding a western horse in true collection a difficult thing to do. So if western riders are on an average QH and dabbling in collection/dressage they start out hampered by their horse’s build.

And I will clearly clearly say right now that Parelli has little to no respect from me or anyone I know except as a marketing genius.

And now after throwing all that out, I am going to be offline for a few days! LOL

Good to meet you, it’s fun to hear a true western “voice” here!