[QUOTE=mvp;7464186]
Dressage can be divided into “classical dressage” and “competitive dressage.” There will be some fighting there. [/QUOTE]
And if you want to break it down even further and start a fight, go onto the dressage board and ask which is better - French- or German-style training? :winkgrin:
Conformation nightmares like this one?
https://www.facebook.com/kathryne.magnuson/media_set?set=a.3988579881562.2174987.1492791407&type=3
First question:
I have noticed that many of you are Buck fans.
Why Buck?
I rode in a Ray Hunt clinic back in 2000, I think, when I’d come to know who he was through the references from John Lyons, even Pat P, etc - really cool. So Buck’s the next best thing that’s still alive 
Because of the way he teaches was it easier for you to convert your English teachings to western?
I was a western rider as a teen and on up until 2008 ish when I started taking lessons in basic dressage …on a TWH. So there
Are there other clinicians or trainers that feel make the cross-over well? Or was it the Buck movie that inspired you to try western riding?
Jon Ensign. Stacey Westfall. Richard Winters.
Second question:
For those that have converted or ride both English and western, do feel that the term “collection” is the same for both disciplines?
NOPE. In general, western collection is about rocking back over the hocks but the horse is always ready to whoa and slow down. In English, collection is about rocking back over the hocks but the horse is always ready to whoa or go forward. There is so much more forward than in Western.
The goals are different- there is nowhere in Western land you are going to ask for an extended, fully through, trot. There is not a place where you’re aiming for passage or piaffe. You’re just not. It’s about intricacy in the refinement of the spin, turnarounds, halts, slides, etc…maneuvers.
Welcome 
I am sitting on several fences and enjoy learning from all disciplines - I took a dressage lesson Saturday morning and skeedaddled down to the Horse Fair to see Richard Winters’ demo that evening. You can pick up different points of view if you’re willing to look for what’s to be had from others’ perspective. I believe there is GOOD and BAD in every discipline- I just like to keep an open mind and clean BS filter
[QUOTE=cowboymom;7464330]
And I will clearly clearly say right now that Parelli has little to no respect from me or anyone I know except as a marketing genius.[/QUOTE]
Given the history of Pat Parelli and the current history of Buck Brannaman, you might want to tread lightly on Parelli. Friends who worked with Parelli back in the day when he was in California felt the same way about him as you do about Brannaman, having known him up close and personal from way back. And legend has it that his wife, Linda, added the marketing pizzazz to this career. And Brannaman now has a movie made about his life. I don’t know much about that, but you can’t say that between that and the clinic tours that they guy isn’t also getting big into teaching.
IMO, horse trainers who are good and not perfect have a hard, hard time keeping their reputation intact after they do try to go out and teach people en masse.
They need to change how they explain things in order to suit an audience with far less skill, experience and perhaps courage or commitment than they have.
They need to show folks how to change problems quickly, or at least make a start on them in the course of a 3-day clinic. That usually isn’t how they think about making a horse of their own.
They encounter horses with worse histories (or work ethics or builds) than they might have chosen for themselves.
In teaching large groups, they need to let a lot of imperfect things slide. I can tell you that auditing a clinic can be confusing for this reason, and it’s a huge help when the clinician demonstrates with his own horse.
In short, I believe that the longer any of these guys has been on the clinic circuit and the wider his circle, the more gets lost in translation.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7464342]
And if you want to break it down even further and start a fight, go onto the dressage board and ask which is better - French- or German-style training? :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
I grew up behind “Iron Curtain” and the differences between different schools of thoughts of training horses were way more important than classical vs. modern.
These terms did not even exist there. I first heard them in the US. I am aware, they are now wildly used in Europe also.
So, in Europe (not including GB), French/Spanish/Portugal/German nuances, or even better, discussing the old riders, especially, Baucher with his 1st manner and 2nd manner, etc. were way more important points of discussion (at times boiling down into screaming matches).
People would actually meet to show each other during training what they meant. Sometimes, they found out they meant the same thing, just used different words! It was fantastic.
One thing that attracted me to Dorrance brothers and made me want to learn about them more was the fact that they seemed to have had similar approach to horsemanship (minus European riding theories). They visited and accepted visitors to just discuss various aspects of riding. It felt familiar to me.
Dressage, as I was taught it, is just training of a riding horse. Nothing less, nothing more. It is not a goal for itself. It is a tool.
We had horses, young remounts, coming in our dressage club to receive the basic education, which would end with campaign or field collection (I don’t know, how else to translate it). This would probably correspond with the level of assembly of horse for lower levels of today’s dressage competitions (except, it does not look the same).
This level included cavaletti and small jumps.
Then, they would leave to go on to do their actual jobs, which would be jumping, hacking, or versatility (eventing).
They would keep progressing in their respective disciplines and, if they progressed to high levels, well, the collection would increase with that, too. Many jumps require a high degree of collection.
Very few were selected to go to the “high school” and become refined in movements, such as piaffe, passage, pirouettes, etc.
They had to have a conformation, talent, and mind to go there. Horses were generally started for riding after 4 (4-5). It took probably five to seven years to refine a horse to a high degree (which probably explains, why, in Europe, it has traditionally been a hobby for affluent people with some spare time on their hands - not many left nowadays).
[QUOTE=mvp;7464439]
Given the history of Pat Parelli and the current history of Buck Brannaman, you might want to tread lightly on Parelli…
They encounter horses with worse histories (or work ethics or builds) than they might have chosen for themselves…
In short, I believe that the longer any of these guys has been on the clinic circuit and the wider his circle, the more gets lost in translation.[/QUOTE]
I have been thinking about this, too, Mvp.
Funny, if there were no Parelli hype, I would have never found Dorrance brothers! I would not know about that part of western world at all, being a foreigner and all.
I chose Bill Dorrance for western input, because, to me, he seems the quietest and in sync with what I have learnt back home during in-hand work. He helped me to return to my “origins” in a way.
Everyone else is just too “loud.” Then again, all these people do clinics and, perhaps, that is how they have to go about it to get work done in short amount of time. I disagree with that and I think, it corrodes the message.
As for horses and riders, clinicians meet at clinics- I liked the way Buck’s brother Smokie put it in his book “Whisper this…” It was not very nice, but it was a good observation.
I think, many clinicians publicly downplay the crucial role of a good natural match between a horse, rider, and the intended work. That bothers me. The only one I have heard talking about it has been Mark Rashid.
I know some local Buck Brannaman’s aficionados. I would not train with them, because, comparing even just DVDs and their approach, well, something has definitely been lost in translation.
It is one of the reasons I strongly believe, people would be way better off, if they found a local person with good common sense and stick to him/her rather than taking a lesson once a year for three days straight.
Many claim, they do not exist. They do. For a lower level collection, the one that keeps a horse rideable and which, for most of us and our horses, is the limit of achievement anyway, they do.
Very good post emilia, I can relate to a lot of it!
For those who want to make progress as quickly as they can (or with a minimum of detours), I think it’s extremely important to have someone they can work with on a regular basis. At the minimum that person can just be an educated eye on the ground who functions as an off-board concience, but it’s even more valuable when that person is educated in an of themselves.
For years I would ride in a couple or three clinics a year, and made decent progress. I was one who said it was impossible to find good local help that thought in the way I wanted to learn, and so I relied on clinics. When I met my wife and started watching her take dressage lessons, I quickly learned that the instructor who I hadn’t been able to relate to before was suddenly very helpful when working with a student with a mindset like I had. In the same way a good instructor adapts to their students, I had been missing the value there simply because of the mindset of the other people I’d seen being trained.
When I started taking weekly dressage lessons (and knew enough to link the studies back to my western goals), I made far more progress, more quickly, than just by clinics alone. Yes, there were some things I needed to experiment with, or filter, or just quietly adapt, but the core of the horsemanship being taught resonated throughout.
On the “big name” side, I think there are influences of personality that colour everyone’s work. If you just look at the Dorrance lineage of training, there are distinct offshoots that have moved in very different ways from the same root.
There are folks like Joe Walter and Martin Black who, while having the no-nonsense approach of real cattlemen, are very inclusive, respectful of everyone who comes to learn from them, and don’t tend to rant. They have their own strong opinions, and if prodded a bit will share them. They seem to prefer working with folks who make a real effort to learn, but come from a fundamentally positive place. I get the feeling that Bill and Tom Dorrance were like this, from what I’ve read and heard.
Then there are folks like Buck, whose constant stream of negativity (dressage riders can’t ride outside, you folks will never amount to anything if you don’t improve etc) left me drained after a weekend spent under his instruction. They teach from the same place philisophically, but come from a place where you have to earn the right to be taught and seem to think that “being honest” is an excuse for being rude (or at least blunt). If you don’t like their style, you can take your business elsewhere because they aren’t changing to suit you. While I never met Ray Hunt, the folks I’ve talked to who did said he was very similar in his approach. People who really like them seem to be either a similar personality type, humbled to even be in their presence (the cult of personality effect), or just willing to suck it up and deal with it.
Both schools contain truly exceptional horsemen, but they do have very different approaches to teaching.
I think the latter group has ended up with a greater reknown because of the personalities involved. “Telling it like it is” results in great sound bites for publication, and when you’re willing to tell people they’re wrong they’ll often make you well known either with praise or condemnation (either way, they’ll be talking about you). After all, this school of horsemanship really got to be well known not through Tom Dorrance’s own efforts from what I can tell, but from the praise lauded his way when Ray Hunt went out into the world and all but started the concept of clinics of this type.
[QUOTE=emilia;7464630]
I strongly believe, people would be way better off, if they found a local person with good common sense and stick to him/her rather than taking a lesson once a year for three days straight.[/QUOTE]
Amen, sistah.:yes:
Although I find it helpful to audit the odd clinic or two a year, just to get a fresh perspective. I’ve never taken my horse to one, though, because then I’d be preoccupied with my horse and would miss the chance to watch all the other horses.
Aktill and fillabeana, you must of posted last night while I was typing(more like hunting and pecking!).
@aktill, the picture of Bruce Sandifer was the same picture I had posted on another forum asking the same questions I am asking now but couldn’t get the answers like I am here
Thanks for the Dr. Deb article, I will fully read it later but I did skim through it and loved the graphics to illustrate the different levels of collection. Also the “head twirling”. Never heard it called that before.
@fillabeana, you made some good points. I think that is what can get so confusing for someone like me who is trying to learn and understand especially if your looking at high placing horses in the ring.
@mvp, thank you for the further explanation of the sub categories!
The Tony Robbins/Aristotle comment tickled me
@ re-runs, I didn’t mean to imply that you were bragging. I am always impressed with people who can show, train, teach in multiple disciplines successfully. I am having a hard enough time trying to “master” one discipline! LOL
I totally agree with you on the mental aspect as well. A trainer that I worked for told me something that has really stuck with me. He said, anyone can learn the mechanics, the physical part to horse training, but a true horseman or a great trainer can get in a horses head.
@cowboymom, Good to meet you too!
I imagine that they(clinicians) can and will get burned out and cranky. Plus, I always liked riding my own horses rather than someone else’s.
I agree with you on the wreck of QH breeding. It has become so specialized that it can make it tough to have a truly versatile horses which the QH is supposed to be. It can be tough to find QH(cow bred) that aren’t built terribly downhill, sickle hocked with some bone and decent feet that can move big and pretty!
@NoSuchPerson, Mules! They are so smart, the same guy that I started mustang colts for also had mules. They are excellent teachers of patience and being a thinking horse(mule) person.
I too don’t follow one trainer or clinicians methods and honestly I have never been to a clinic. I agree with what others said, finding someone local that is a good horseman to learn from and having a set of eyes is a big help with progressing. I have to ride a lot by myself and it doesn’t take much to fall back into bad habits. I have found that sometimes I [I]think[I] I doing something correctly but in reality I am not and need someone to harp on me some to get it right.
That is not to say that I don’t enjoy watching clinician or big name trainer videos. I take something from them and make it my own. I do like Buck but I gravitate more towards Martin Black and Bruce Sandifer. Martin Black is a good cowman, used to work in this neck of the woods and show the same horses he “built” working outside. So for me I think he uses ideas that work well for my situation since I am trying to do the same.
On the subject of Parelli, I have never been a fan. Had a friend that was into him back before Linda was involved and tried to get me on the band wagon. I tried watching a couple, back then VHS tapes, and realized I needed a Parelli term dictionary to understand him. A big turn off for me. Seeing him at the NCHA Futurity a few years ago strutting around like a Banty rooster with an entourage and groupies was weird to me as well.
I have rode a few horses that were “Parelli trained” not by Parelli himself but by followers and they were just cranky and on the pushy side. But maybe this goes to what someone else above mentioned, a lot of what gets taught is lost in translation.
Anyways, wanted to thank everyone again for their answers! Gives me a lot to think about and plenty to read.
Sorry if I missed someone in replying.
Then there are folks like Buck, whose constant stream of negativity (dressage riders can’t ride outside, you folks will never amount to anything if you don’t improve etc) left me drained after a weekend spent under his instruction. They teach from the same place philisophically, but come from a place where you have to earn the right to be taught and seem to think that “being honest” is an excuse for being rude (or at least blunt). If you don’t like their style, you can take your business elsewhere because they aren’t changing to suit you. While I never met Ray Hunt, the folks I’ve talked to who did said he was very similar in his approach. People who really like them seem to be either a similar personality type, humbled to even be in their presence (the cult of personality effect), or just willing to suck it up and deal with it.
Then there are folks like Buck, whose constant stream of negativity (dressage riders can’t ride outside, you folks will never amount to anything if you don’t improve etc) left me drained after a weekend spent under his instruction. They teach from the same place philisophically, but come from a place where you have to earn the right to be taught and seem to think that “being honest” is an excuse for being rude (or at least blunt). If you don’t like their style, you can take your business elsewhere because they aren’t changing to suit you. While I never met Ray Hunt, the folks I’ve talked to who did said he was very similar in his approach. People who really like them seem to be either a similar personality type, humbled to even be in their presence (the cult of personality effect), or just willing to suck it up and deal with it.
I sympathize with your experience. Buck is not more than human, nor was Ray. And they will have had clinics that they just couldn’t run like they wanted to, that were awful for them, too.
I do NOT read Buck as having some ‘constant stream of negativity’ or being universally negative about Dressage riders. In fact, if that is what you want to do, Buck has a list of people who can help you with riding your horse, with dressage as your main focus, without sacrificing the mental aspect, the whole core of his teaching.
And as far as Buck and Ray, in a clinic, and their teaching style: I think they are trying just as hard, or harder, to get through to the PERSON to turn loose, as they are the horse. They know they can’t have much effect, in four days, if you don’t. Buck (and Ray, as per my mentor, Bryan Neubert, Buster McLaury, and others) is trying to get his STUDENTS on a feel. It is an amazing experience, connecting to your instructor that way, where you are feeling of the teacher, feeling of the horse, the horse is feeling of you…and you’re just as busy as can be without having to be some sort of marionette that the teacher manipulates, talks you through things…
It is really different from how most people run a good clinic. And some people just can’t, or won’t, do it.
If you defend yourself, if you find fault with particulars of the teacher, if you try to do everything RIGHT instead of ask, observe, remember, compare…all you’re learning is a few exercises. And you might as well just buy the 7-Clinics if you’re not going to turn loose yourself.
Just to add:
Have you ever heard someone say, Buck is a real subtle son-of-a-gun?
They aren’t being sarcastic.
A story I really like, of Bryan Neubert with a rank bronc 6-year-old ranch ‘colt’ he was starting, with Ray Hunt’s help:
http://www.bryanneubert.com/bryans_stories.php
Bryan calls it ‘The Blessing’…and in one way, it is about how Ray would not talk him through his troubles, show him just what to do, until Bryan was truly ready to learn…
the answer, was ‘settle for the smallest try’, and Bryan had heard Ray tell him that zillions of times. And until Bryan was really ready to learn this at a level deep enough to help his bronc, he didn’t really know what Ray meant.
[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;7461468]
You may have seen me posting for the last week or so and lurking through here, thought I would introduce myself and ask a couple of questions. Also hope you don’t mind me digging up some older threads that have piqued my interest!
Hello!
My husband and I live in NE Nevada working on a ranch. We run about 1000 pairs and on a good year(we are in a drought now) also run any where from 1000-5000 yearlings in the summer. We have about 7 of our personal horses, take in a few colts for friends every once in awhile and the ranch runs about 30 head of saddle horses. (Of course winter time is slow so I have the time to cruise the interwebz )
My husband has a background of ranching/cowboying, working feedlots, hauling cattle and working rodeo stock contractors. I have also cowboyed and worked for various trainers(cutting, reining and cowhorse) as an apprentice and eventually as an assistant trainer. Not saying that I am worth a pile a beans at any of those things, but all great learning experiences! I do show a little mostly at our local stock horse contests and also participate in ranch rodeos.
HOWEVER, I have always been fascinated by the “other side”. Secretly, I would love to try 3 Day eventing and learn more about english riding but have only ridden in an English saddle once in my years.
This leads me to my questions, since I have been lurking I have noticed many of you that post in the western section seem to have been English/Dressage riders (please forgive my ignorance and lack of proper terminology) that either ride both English/Dressage and western or converted to western. I hope you all will be willing to satisfy my curiosity since you are both English and western riders. Maybe you can put things into perspective for a gal that knows nothing about English riding. 
First question:
I have noticed that many of you are Buck fans.
Why Buck? Because of the way he teaches was it easier for you to convert your English teachings to western? Are there other clinicians or trainers that feel make the cross-over well? Or was it the Buck movie that inspired you to try western riding?
Second question:
For those that have converted or ride both English and western, do feel that the term “collection” is the same for both disciplines? Or is the English or Dressage version of collection feel or defined differently than what western riders think and feel? Also I would love to see some pictures of what you feel are good examples.
Looking forward to your responses![/QUOTE]
Whoever you are, I’m kinda jealous!
OK, so about me:
I live at the far west end of the Great Basin.
My husband and I have registered cattle. We were dissatisfied by the ‘Giant Pumpkin Contest’ mindset of raising seedstock in pampered/excessive conditions in order to have ‘impressive’ weaning and yearling weights, the 1600 to 1800 pound, really heavy milking cows that have become the norm, the overfed and often foundered bulls that are also the norm at bull sales.
So we sold our irrigated-pasture outfit (the place grew rocket fuel that is great at foundering horses) and bought a desert/forest turnout ranch. We wanted our cows to perform in the environment that our bull customers’ cows do.
We’re a few years into it, and we’ve definitely changed the genetics that we use to create cows that will be profitable out here.
And…my husband and I need at least two horses each, which makes me really happy!
Husband grew up on a bigger, well known registered cattle ranch, I grew up on 75 acres with some horses and eventually some registered cows. Neither of us ever roped a cow, we had close corrals with good squeeze chutes.
And though I grew up in cowboy country, I loved to jump, pretty much never rode western.
I did some dressage, hunter shows, and was totally enamored with eventing. By the time I turned 16, I hauled my own horse to my lessons.
Went to college, and though I loved the horses, I thought of the cattle as a better ‘business’, as a ‘real’ industry rather than (horses) being something dependent on people who had extra money to spend.
And I never had a lot of $$, I got to Training level eventing (sounds basic, but fences are 3’3" and can get kinda hairy), schooling Preliminary. Sold my mare to go to school. Then, bought a series of cheap horses that were w/t/c broke and got them through to Novice eventing (recognized events) and sold them.
Until I got married, moved out to the ranch, and my OTTB mare was too much to ride just now and then.
I could absolutely have put her in a ‘real’ riding facility, ridden her 5 or 6 times a week, and sold another Novice/Training event horse.
But I couldn’t do it on the ranch, she was truly troubled.
Got John Lyons’ book, went through step=by-step in the round pen, except I really didn’t follow the directions exactly…and got that mare profoundly at peace.
But only in the round pen. I couldn’t get it working anywhere else, I couldn’t ride her unless I rode her in the same area every day. Day one was always freak-out-ville, day two better, day three fine. But if I went to the other side of the fence, freak-out-ville again.
A friend offered me Tom Dorrance’s phone number…I said, gee, no thanks. (!!)
I was also invited three times to a Ray Hunt clinic, five miles from my house. Again, no, I don’t want to pay $20 just to watch, I gotta have my own individual attention if I pay out for a clinic, I’m not gonna audit a western clinic for that much money!
(And, my husband has a return-postcard from a customer survey, asking if bull buyers wanted to know more about the statistic/genetic evaluations that were being developed. The return postcard is from Bill Dorrance…husband dropped his bull off at the neighbor’s ranch, and never followed up on Bill’s expressed wishes to learn more about these EPD things from my husband…)
So, the TB mare stayed troubled. She’d get upset out in the pasture, with our other horses. So I sold her to a home where she was pretty much ridden in the same arena, regularly. I was bummed, that was a NICE horse.
Meanwhile, diagnosed with some health problems, not riding much…had some AQHA mares that I bred/started myself that were getting along fine.
Bought Big Ranch, cutting horse mares are not really suited to cover big country.
They were BOTH lame when it was time to gather cattle off the forest, I spend $1000 on a very friendly, gentle (but thin at 150 lb underweight) OTTB. I figured we’d get the cattle gathered, and if he didn’t work out he could go down the road.
He was fine…when we stuck him in the trailer and drove him two hours to the middle of the forest, where he had NO idea where he was…
Not so fine, next spring when he put good weight on and I found out how troubled, barn sour, and spoiled he was. You could ride him for three days straight, 20 miles a day, and he’d still be freaked-out excitable at the end of day three.
The only person who thought it was a good idea to ride him, you can find Mary Williams Hyde photos of, that person winning ranch bronc contests.
I needed help, by now I really loved this horse, but he scared me and I was in over my head.
My mom paid for me to take him to a nearby Buck clinic. That was 2010, the same time they were filming for the movie. They didn’t film at my clinic, but we all signed the extra release forms just in case Cindy Meehl wanted to come by and picked up a camera.
Anyway, Buck took my spoiled horse from me, telling me at the same time that since I had no skills to handle his problems, I was annoying the horse.
When Buck handed my horse back, he was literally groaning in relief. At peace. And watching Buck everywhere he went like a schoolgirl crush.
It wasn’t easy to swallow my pride and ego, but I’m glad that was the first thing I had to deal with.
And I met my mentor there, he was/has/does help Buck with clinics sometimes.
I could never have got this particular OTTB OK without a lot of my mentor’s help, and a lot of reading Dr. Deb Bennett.
What a story! I would be willing to bet we know some of the same people
I completely agree with you on the “norm” for seedstock…yuck. Exactly like you said they don’t do well unless they are on manicured pasture. Your right, those cattle cannot maintain out here! Lorenzen sale last week, heard the bulls were grossly over weight. Not ideal for range bulls.
We have a commercial herd mainly single iron, some bought-en cattle but still local. When we do get yearlings in, any English cattle stay in the meadows for the most part and the Mexicans get turned out on the mountain. I really do like a little ear, they do pretty dang good out here.
The horses on the ranch, the older ones were bred and raised here when we still used to run a mare bunch. Husband and I started the last of them colts a few years ago. Mostly big desert, draft, whatever, cross that made big boned, tough footed rock pounders. Finally got rid of the mares, like you said, it just doesn’t pay. It is easier and slightly more economical to buy some decent 2 and 3 year olds use them on the ranch and sell them as 5,6,7 year old ranch used horses and turn over that money to buy more 2 and 3 year olds to keep the horse program some what “paying” for itself. I do have some reining/cowhorse bred horses and colts that I use but I try to keep from rock pounding on them. So far it has been working out good, they have been staying sound. knock wood. I do own some that I reserve for the tough country.
Sounds like you were “destined” to know or know of Ray Hunt and the Dorrences…LOL!
Funny how paths cross and sometimes many times before you realize it.
Oh man is it tough to swallow that pride and be okay with someone else being able to get through on a horse. It is a blow to the ego for sure, I understand
Horses are so humbling…
I had ridden a little as a kid, but no formal lessons. Was looking at the want ads when I was 32 yrs old (12 yrs ago), was a tiny ad for horses to lease $100 a month. Used to love riding the chances I did as a kid, so called.
Leased a 6 yr old, PJ, he put up w/me twice a week, I could ride him up and down the county roads, or in fields, really, it was like he knew I would leave him alone, so he just agreed.
The people let me use their tack, but I slowely got my own, English, after a year, they decided to downsize, sell the horses and prop, so I bought PJ.
Moved him to a boarding barn, had a month honeymoon, then all hell started to break loose, the problem was I had treated him like a dog and now, was coming out more often.
Never got actually hurt, but he was striking and rearing, total lack of respect, thankfully, got help when I really needed it.
Learned the basics, PJ was fine, was really me that needed the training. Life was good, got a trailer, did a LOT of trail riding, PJ and I were a team, or so I thought…
About 2007, was at a AQHA trail ride. They had a trainer, Tim Boyer, put on a small clinic and address people’s issues. I just watched, was ENTHRALLED, I wanted to learn how to do THAT!!!
Tim Boyer had learned from Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, was really the first time I had ever heard their names before them.
Seems so stupid now, but he could stand anywhere and put his foot out, his horse would line up the stirrup EXACTLY for the foot, his horse WATCHED him, waited for him, was there whenever he needed.
Tim Boyer had a clinic the next weekend, was a two day, went to it, and was totally HOOKED!! Was at a really nice place, fun group of people, hung out after the clinic, went to dinner, then back around the fire pit, lots of stories & wisdom.
Was clear that this was NOT about training a horse, but about life, Tim is one of those guys that may not talk a lot, BUT what he says has a deep meaning!
I did as many of his clinics as I could, I had been taking lessons from a lady, Carrie, then too. Once winter came, I talked our BO into having Tim for a clinic, Carrie did it. Mostly, out of respect to our BO.
Didn’t enjoy it at all, had a horse that didn’t like the flag, and was pissed that Tim was using the flag to move her horse.
Clinic was full, most everyone had fun, Carrie didn’t make a point to say she didn’t, but this came afterwards…
This is my example of turning loose…
Some background, Carrie is the sweetest lady, her students typically win at fairs and shows, she is very good at teaching, I learned a lot from her, probably took lessons from her for around a year, BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER MUCH ABOUT Pre-TIM Carrie.
She is a VERY, VERY good rider, but when she came to the clinic, she had already decided that Tim didn’t have anything for her to learn, she already KNEW EVERYTHING. She was cocky and close minded, Tim didn’t really spend a LOT of time w/her on much, wasn’t rude, but prob figured out pretty quick that she wasn’t ready to learn much.
She went home, and in the next day, completely lost it, started to cry, basically, realized that she did NOT know everything, I think she may have been loading a horse or something that paralleled into something that Tim had said in his clinic. I think she tried something from Tim, and it worked, WELL.
She looked inside and realized that she DID have more to learn, wrote Tim a letter, saying how sorry she was to act the way she did, not giving Tim a chance, etc, that she would really like to ride w/him sometime.
Tim called her back the day he got the letter, invited her to his barn, and they have ridden together many times, are close friends now.
SHE has become such a much better horsewoman. I have gotten to be pretty close w/her, is a friend, but meeting Tim changed her too, but even more profound.
Since then, Carrie has ridden w/Buck & Martin Black, she liked both, but really LOVED Martin.
Her mind is totally open, and as a teacher, she is SOOO much better, sooooo turning loose can be a pretty big process.
As a person, I think she is much happier too. So, really, it isn’t just about training horses.
About me, I rode English, did a little jumping, but slowly shifted back to more western, tho, I am kinda a mutt. I dress for comfort, so wear English paddock boots, riding tights, but a very comfortable Western saddle. Ride in a plain snaffle.
I board my two horses, so love riding vacations whether, trail riding or clinics. So, I do my share of clinics every summer, but again, is an excuse to hang out w/friends and my horse.
But I rely on my weekly riding lesson to really learn and improve. I totally agree, most people prob do have good horseman around them to learn from, if they looked.
I think so much is made from the big name trainers, that people go that route instead of regular lessons. People are usually, so overwhelmed, it takes them awhile to even process what is being taught.
I listen to everyone, then take bits and pieces for what works for me. People I have learned from is Carrie, Tim Boyer, Jud Carter, Martin Black (audited four of his clinics), Buck (audited one clinic, like his Dvd’s), and Mark Schwarm. There are prob several more than I am not thinking of at the moment, but what I can think of now.
I had ridden a little as a kid, but no formal lessons. Was looking at the want ads when I was 32 yrs old (12 yrs ago), was a tiny ad for horses to lease $100 a month. Used to love riding the chances I did as a kid, so called.
Leased a 6 yr old, PJ, he put up w/me twice a week, I could ride him up and down the county roads, or in fields, really, it was like he knew I would leave him alone, so he just agreed.
The people let me use their tack, but I slowely got my own, English, after a year, they decided to downsize, sell the horses and prop, so I bought PJ.
Moved him to a boarding barn, had a month honeymoon, then all hell started to break loose, the problem was I had treated him like a dog and now, was coming out more often.
Never got actually hurt, but he was striking and rearing, total lack of respect, thankfully, got help when I really needed it.
Learned the basics, PJ was fine, was really me that needed the training. Life was good, got a trailer, did a LOT of trail riding, PJ and I were a team, or so I thought…
About 2007, was at a AQHA trail ride. They had a trainer, Tim Boyer, put on a small clinic and address people’s issues. I just watched, was ENTHRALLED, I wanted to learn how to do THAT!!!
Tim Boyer had learned from Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, was really the first time I had ever heard their names before them.
Seems so stupid now, but he could stand anywhere and put his foot out, his horse would line up the stirrup EXACTLY for the foot, his horse WATCHED him, waited for him, was there whenever he needed.
Tim Boyer had a clinic the next weekend, was a two day, went to it, and was totally HOOKED!! Was at a really nice place, fun group of people, hung out after the clinic, went to dinner, then back around the fire pit, lots of stories & wisdom.
Was clear that this was NOT about training a horse, but about life, Tim is one of those guys that may not talk a lot, BUT what he says has a deep meaning!
I did as many of his clinics as I could, I had been taking lessons from a lady, Carrie, then too. Once winter came, I talked our BO into having Tim for a clinic, Carrie did it. Mostly, out of respect to our BO.
Didn’t enjoy it at all, had a horse that didn’t like the flag, and was pissed that Tim was using the flag to move her horse.
Clinic was full, most everyone had fun, Carrie didn’t make a point to say she didn’t, but this came afterwards…
This is my example of turning loose…
Some background, Carrie is the sweetest lady, her students typically win at fairs and shows, she is very good at teaching, I learned a lot from her, probably took lessons from her for around a year, BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER MUCH ABOUT Pre-TIM Carrie.
She is a VERY, VERY good rider, but when she came to the clinic, she had already decided that Tim didn’t have anything for her to learn, she already KNEW EVERYTHING. She was cocky and close minded, Tim didn’t really spend a LOT of time w/her on much, wasn’t rude, but prob figured out pretty quick that she wasn’t ready to learn much.
She went home, and in the next day, completely lost it, started to cry, basically, realized that she did NOT know everything, I think she may have been loading a horse or something that paralleled into something that Tim had said in his clinic. I think she tried something from Tim, and it worked, WELL.
She looked inside and realized that she DID have more to learn, wrote Tim a letter, saying how sorry she was to act the way she did, not giving Tim a chance, etc, that she would really like to ride w/him sometime.
Tim called her back the day he got the letter, invited her to his barn, and they have ridden together many times, are close friends now.
SHE has become such a much better horsewoman. I have gotten to be pretty close w/her, is a friend, but meeting Tim changed her too, but even more profound.
Since then, Carrie has ridden w/Buck & Martin Black, she liked both, but really LOVED Martin.
Her mind is totally open, and as a teacher, she is SOOO much better, sooooo turning loose can be a pretty big process.
As a person, I think she is much happier too. So, really, it isn’t just about training horses.
About me, I rode English, did a little jumping, but slowly shifted back to more western, tho, I am kinda a mutt. I dress for comfort, so wear English paddock boots, riding tights, but a very comfortable Western saddle. Ride in a plain snaffle.
I board my two horses, so love riding vacations whether, trail riding or clinics. So, I do my share of clinics every summer, but again, is an excuse to hang out w/friends and my horse.
But I rely on my weekly riding lesson to really learn and improve. I totally agree, most people prob do have good horseman around them to learn from, if they looked.
I think so much is made from the big name trainers, that people go that route instead of regular lessons. People are usually, so overwhelmed, it takes them awhile to even process what is being taught.
I listen to everyone, then take bits and pieces for what works for me. People I have learned from is Carrie, Tim Boyer, Jud Carter, Martin Black (audited four of his clinics), Buck (audited one clinic, like his Dvd’s), and Mark Schwarm. There are prob several more than I am not thinking of at the moment, but what I can think of now.
Before I get to what I’ll say re: Fillabean’s view of Brannaman, I will say to aktill:
Preach it, brother! Nice to see someone calling it as they see it with clinicians whose pedagogy leaves something to be desired. I don’t believe on beating up human students any more than I believe in beating up equine ones. I don’t see how they rationalize it, given their propensity to extrapolate from horse training to Grand Truths of the World.
Which brings me to:
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7465104]
And as far as Buck and Ray, in a clinic, and their teaching style: I think they are trying just as hard, or harder, to get through to the PERSON to turn loose, as they are the horse. They know they can’t have much effect, in four days, if you don’t. Buck (and Ray, as per my mentor, Bryan Neubert, Buster McLaury, and others) is trying to get his STUDENTS on a feel. It is an amazing experience, connecting to your instructor that way, where you are feeling of the teacher, feeling of the horse, the horse is feeling of you…and you’re just as busy as can be without having to be some sort of marionette that the teacher manipulates, talks you through things…
It is really different from how most people run a good clinic. And some people just can’t, or won’t, do it.
If you defend yourself, if you find fault with particulars of the teacher, if you try to do everything RIGHT instead of ask, observe, remember, compare…all you’re learning is a few exercises. And you might as well just buy the 7-Clinics if you’re not going to turn loose yourself.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like an EST form of teaching. “Turning loose” here means something like total submission? Or it means being able to know what your instructor would tell you to do next on the horse before he can say it? I’ll accept the latter, of course! I learned a ton about feel and timing from those private lessons with a good instructor that were 3-way conversations between me, the horse and the instructor trying to “ride the horse through me” and me trying to do in response to the horse what my instructor would have me do before she could say it. That was good sh!t.
The EST stuff, the “break 'em down and rebuild 'em” is unacceptable to me. I say this as someone who has taught at the university level (as well as horses and little kids on horses). The teacher who can only think to do this so as to get “try” or “buy in” from his students probably doesn’t have much ability to figure out what his students are thinking or feeling. That’s a failure on his part, not the students’ part.
ETA: Sorry for the ranty detour on the OP’s thread.
I’ve always taken turning loose to mean something totally different, mvp. I have had several very good students who when they came to me rode to a plan. They would arrive and state “today I’m going to improve my shoulder-in, and I’m going to do it by starting with x exercise, then doing y…” When they had worked with me for a while they would arrive and say “I’m going to warm up my horse. If I feel that he is tight coming off the right hind or having problems swinging through his back, I’ll pick exercises that address that. If he responds well I’ll move on to the next area that needs improvement. Overall we’ll gain more relaxation and impulsion and if he feels right I’ll use shoulder-in and ask for more impulsion.” ( or whatever the big goals for this horse were.)
This is a move from being locked into an agenda set by the rider to turning loose and working on what the horse presents. For many people this is a radical concept.
I get rankled every time I’m told I should prepare lesson plans for my students. Every day, every lesson, I have a slightly different horse and rider presented to me. My plan must first start with where they are today. Of course I have goals. How we get there varies.
The way I understand Mvp’s point is that it is very hard to “turn loose” with a teacher with an “abrasive” style, no matter, how “soft” they are supposed to be inside.
I respect work of Mr. Brannaman and Dr. Bennett; I like to read up on Dr. Bennett’s research and observe Mr. Brannaman’s work. Yet, I would not go close to either of them in real life, because of the way they seem to go about teaching. It brings back some bad memories.
I grew up in that style in both, my riding and ballet education. The way it used to be presented to us was that a life of an equestrian or a dancer was terribly difficult and so the trainers needed to weed out “weaklings” (not fully committed ones) right at the beginning (no matter, most of us had no intentions in professional careers anyway).
Once we made it through that initial period, life improved and we were encouraged to loosen up and open up to actually be able to receive some training. It took time, however, to overcome the fear of trainers and learn to take their ways “in strides.”
I sometimes wonder, how many truly talented, yet quieter and softer, people we lost in that initial process of weeding.
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