Introducing myself and few questions to those that hang around the "western" section

[mvp]

This is a pedagogy side discussion, so y’all can skip by it if you’re bored.

@ longride1. I hear you. I always teach horse that way: I have a long term plan, a short term plan and I used to have a “today we’ll do this” plan. But really, I work on whatever rough or hard spot the horse presents. I don’t have a lot of emotional attachment to just what that is. He can tell me whether today is the day we (finally) work on the canter, or whether his bigger and prior problem with not being able to stretch down at the walk is what we’ll do. Don’t make no nevah mind to me: I know what I want a made horse to feel like and we will get there sooner or later.

Oh, and you don’t have to get it perfect on any given day. If the horse does some, say, better stretching you do that and then work on something else.

I try to do the same with people, but I realize how scary it is for people to turn themselves over completely to some teacher. It’s psychologically risky to be a beginner, especially as an adult. Students are scared, just the way horses who don’t know how to accept training are scared.

There are two ways you can go about getting this: You can invite the student to feel safe enough to trust you with setting the agenda, or you can set them up to fail until they cry “uncle.” Which way would you like to see someone similarly have that discussion with a horse?

Like I said: If you don’t believe in the justice (or long-term efficacy) of treating a horse like a Marine in bootcamp, your pedagogy and ethics shouldn’t allow you to do that to people. And I hold these Extrapolation Kings to a high standard. I don’t see why they can’t treat their human students with more skill since they do so well with horses and see the need to compare man and beast.

[re-runs]

This is just an observation and an opinion so you know what that might be worth…zero… but here goes anyway…

No one,… not horse, human or dog learns when they are in a state of self preservation. Beating someone down with words is not a far cry from beating someone physically, in fact, it can be more damaging with longer lasting pain. If you feel hurt, you are more apt to try and protect yourself…either wanting to get away or tightening up, getting flustered; trying too hard to avoid the masters reprimand and it makes learning more difficult. It doesnt work for anyone or anything. It shouldnt make the teacher feel good about it either, that is the antithesis of what this kind of horsemanship is all about. The teacher should be trying to build self-esteem, not tear it down, for, many problems come from a lack of self confidence. (EGO and self confidence are not the same by the way.)

On the other hand sometimes the teacher has to take the horse or human to a place where they have not gone before to “get it”. It may be radical; to get the persons or, horses attention and a little dust gets kicked up to help them “come through”. If not going there, the person/ horse would most likely just do the same thing it has always done getting the same results. Most people come to a clinic to learn something, because what they have been doing isn`t working. Learning can be introspective and sometimes that look inward is tough to deal with if the person is truthful with themselves. How did the teacher get the person to go there and what was their intent? Did the instructor come from a place where they were in a hurry or did they enjoy inflicting pain on the student…then this is wrong…very very wrong and it is something the teacher needs to work on within himself. If the teachers intent was taking the person/ horse to a place where they could now take a new approach to the problem and the teacher did it out of respect for the pupil, then this is right…very right.

Tom Dorrance was a very gentle person. How did Tom teach? Tom was mentor to most of these teachers out there today…I am sure they have thought from time to time, “How would Tom handle this?” I have heard that Ray Hunt would say now and then…“Tom would never send a horse there” (troubled), when he was working a horse and things got physical.
I personally watched as Ray Hunt let one of the older men in a colt starting class get bucked off and it bothered me at first but then Ray said “If that hadnt happened, he (guy riding) would have gone home and blamed the horse. I dont want him blaming the horse, I want him to see that his own actions caused that colt to buck him off.”
What the guy was doing was asking the horse to lope while holding him back at the same time…Ray wanted him to understand that.

I have ridden with some of the toughest European instructors.
For many years I worked with a German coach that I greatly admire. During WWII he was held in a Russian military camp as a prisoner of war…after working with him,… nobody scares me.:lol:

[Pocket_Pony]

Wow, I sure am glad I didn’t read these opinions about BB before I went to the clinic last year, or else I would have been too scared to go! I guess I must really be missing something wrt BB. I am very careful to not be a drink-the-cool-aid type of person, and I can’t say that I agree 100% with things BB has said or done (just like any other trainer I’ve ever been with in my 30+ years of instruction), but I really don’t see him as the type of teacher a lot of people are painting him as.

I guess from my perspective, I appreciate a teacher who will call people out on things and who has high standards. That, to me, does not equate being rude or condescending. It is possible to be firm and fair, which is what we want with our horses, no? Some horses are strong and defiant and have learned how to get people’s numbers. Some horses are scared and withdrawn. Some horses just want to please. Some put up a little fight but then back down. They come in all personality types and it is our job to learn how and what works with our horses. I can tell you that I treat Mac very differently than I treat Paddy in certain approaches to things, and yet I still strive to bring out the best in them, treat them with love and respect, and be consistent and fair. (Note I said strive - I am human and don’t always meet my own expectations . . . but I still try)

In the clinic I did last year, I saw him be gentle with those who needed it, who were having an emotional time (on the verge of a breakdown), who were young and just there to have fun. I saw him take time to personally help those who asked for it. And yes, I saw him give a couple people a kick in the pants. IMHO, those people whom he was firm with were people who wouldn’t/couldn’t hear him if he were gentle, people who (seemingly, otherwise why would they be there) wanted to learn, or people who were having immediate problems that needed to be addressed. Just like you have to meet a horse where he is, you have to meet people where they are. Not everyone comes ready to learn, even if they think they are open to it.

Maybe it is because I’ve seen my fair share of trainers who do berate people, who yell at people, who treat people poorly that I honestly don’t see BB that way. I’ve seen the manipulating, the lying, the cheating, the dishonesty, the sweet-to-your-face-but-horrible-behind-your-back person. I’d much rather someone be up-front with me and what I need to do to help my horse. I’m there to learn. I’m the one who signed up to be in a clinic with a lot of other people and a lot of spectators. I fully know that my horsemanship and riding are on display for others to watch and learn from.

I appreciate trainers who are hard on me - just like I appreciate my ballet teacher who is hard on me. I want to learn how to do things the correct way and as much as I do want kudos for a job well-done, I don’t want people blowing smoke up my ass - that’s not what I’m paying them for.

Anyway, sorry to get off-topic, I just wanted to speak out and share my experience on the other side of it.

[mrs.smith]

@Fillabeana;7465127

Just to add:
Have you ever heard someone say, Buck is a real subtle son-of-a-gun?

They aren’t being sarcastic.

This is true about Buck in many ways.

Last year I had the pleasure of auditing one of his clinics. As I’m sure he does in most clinics, he recommended to the horse breaking group that they stay and watch the horsemanship group and visa versa. Well, this particular horse breaking group always came up with a bunch of excuses why they didn’t watch the horsemanship group in the afternoon. Too tired, other obligations, went out to lunch, etc. So, after the third day of listening to this, Buck calmly told the horse breaking group to come to the afternoon horsemanship class for some “extra round pen work”. Dutifully, they all showed up and Buck locked them and their horses in the round pen.

And, he left them there the whole horsemanship class. Trapped in the round pen, they were all forced to sit there and watch the horsemanship class. And Buck never said a word.

[Fillabeana]

No one,… not horse, human or dog learns when they are in a state of self preservation. Beating someone down with words is not a far cry from beating someone physically, in fact, it can be more damaging with longer lasting pain. If you feel hurt, you are more apt to try and protect yourself…either wanting to get away or tightening up, getting flustered; trying too hard to avoid the masters reprimand and it makes learning more difficult. It doesnt work for anyone or anything. It shouldnt make the teacher feel good about it either, that is the antithesis of what this kind of horsemanship is all about. The teacher should be trying to build self-esteem, not tear it down, for, many problems come from a lack of self confidence. (EGO and self confidence are not the same by the way.)

On the other hand sometimes the teacher has to take the horse or human to a place where they have not gone before to “get it”. It may be radical; to get the persons or, horses attention and a little dust gets kicked up to help them “come through”. If not going there, the person/ horse would most likely just do the same thing it has always done getting the same results. Most people come to a clinic to learn something, because what they have been doing isn`t working. Learning can be introspective and sometimes that look inward is tough to deal with if the person is truthful with themselves. How did the teacher get the person to go there and what was their intent? Did the instructor come from a place where they were in a hurry or did they enjoy inflicting pain on the student…then this is wrong…very very wrong and it is something the teacher needs to work on within himself. If the teachers intent was taking the person/ horse to a place where they could now take a new approach to the problem and the teacher did it out of respect for the pupil, then this is right…very right.

reruns, thank you a thousand times for posting this.
I think sometimes, things need to be presented, again and again, in different words, in different situations, to ever be understood.

Tom Moates talks about Harry Whitney, about working a horse in that ‘flustered’ but not completely overwhelmed state, calling it ‘The Razor’s Edge’.
As in, when done wrong, it can inflict terrible damage.
But done right, this is the place man or beast has to come to, to be able to see that there is somewhere else to go, something else to try, something that ‘you never knew was there’.

This is my example of turning loose…

Some background, Carrie is the sweetest lady, her students typically win at fairs and shows, she is very good at teaching, I learned a lot from her, probably took lessons from her for around a year, BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER MUCH ABOUT Pre-TIM Carrie.

She is a VERY, VERY good rider, but when she came to the clinic, she had already decided that Tim didn’t have anything for her to learn, she already KNEW EVERYTHING. She was cocky and close minded, Tim didn’t really spend a LOT of time w/her on much, wasn’t rude, but prob figured out pretty quick that she wasn’t ready to learn much.

She went home, and in the next day, completely lost it, started to cry, basically, realized that she did NOT know everything, I think she may have been loading a horse or something that paralleled into something that Tim had said in his clinic. I think she tried something from Tim, and it worked, WELL.

She looked inside and realized that she DID have more to learn, wrote Tim a letter, saying how sorry she was to act the way she did, not giving Tim a chance, etc, that she would really like to ride w/him sometime.

Tim called her back the day he got the letter, invited her to his barn, and they have ridden together many times, are close friends now.

SHE has become such a much better horsewoman. I have gotten to be pretty close w/her, is a friend, but meeting Tim changed her too, but even more profound.

Since then, Carrie has ridden w/Buck & Martin Black, she liked both, but really LOVED Martin.

Shermy, that’s how it seems to happen, pretty often.
It can be like a deep, painful psychological breakthrough.
I’ve said before, that the people who want to go to a Buck clinic to learn, are like people who want to go to the marriage counselor and look to change all the damage/problems that are THEIR problems, not ‘get the counselor to change my partner’s problems’.

Pocket, I was ‘warned’ a couple of times that Buck was terribly mean, awful, rude, negative- before my clinic. Once by the clinic organizer himself (well, he just said, Buck could be ‘mean’ and it might not be fun and majikal butterflies) and once by a person who had…not had a good experience.

I know Ray was perceived the same way by some clinic goers.

I think Ray and Buck will end up with people they can’t get to, but I also think they feel deeply that they have to try.

From ‘Turning Loose’, the video…Ray says, it’s EASY to change the horse. It’s hard to change the human.

[Fillabeana]

Getting back to the Ace’s question, ‘Why Buck?’…

This is a ‘western’ forum in the middle of pretty serious English Horse Sports country. You can ‘talk to’ upper-level event riders, dressage riders, hunter/jumper folks, foxhunters, breeders, though the majority of posters are amateurs, with one or two horses having fun at the lower levels.

As such, I think the exposure to ‘deeper horsemanship’ via the Dorrance Brothers is best related to, through Buck.
He is on a first-name basis with people like George Morris, Melanie-Smith Taylor, Aaron Vale…who are deeply respected in the english sport horse world.

(Someone has a quote, that Superman wears George Morris pajamas to bed. And Mr. Morris is also ‘controversial’ for his teaching style, that has no coddling.)

Buck has ridden plenty with Melanie Smith-Taylor, he has jumped, foxhunted, I think he has exposed himself to ‘the other side’ quite a bit more than the other
Dorrance/Hunt clinicians who are out there.
This is not AT ALL to say that folks like Harry Whitney, Josh Nichol, Buster McLaury, Martin Black, Joe Wolter, etc can’t be as much, or more help than Buck with ‘english’ riding…just that Buck speaks ‘english’ more fluently with the natives.

[Fillabeana]

Last year I had the pleasure of auditing one of his clinics. As I’m sure he does in most clinics, he recommended to the horse breaking group that they stay and watch the horsemanship group and visa versa. Well, this particular horse breaking group always came up with a bunch of excuses why they didn’t watch the horsemanship group in the afternoon. Too tired, other obligations, went out to lunch, etc. So, after the third day of listening to this, Buck calmly told the horse breaking group to come to the afternoon horsemanship class for some “extra round pen work”. Dutifully, they all showed up and Buck locked them and their horses in the round pen.

And, he left them there the whole horsemanship class. Trapped in the round pen, they were all forced to sit there and watch the horsemanship class. And Buck never said a word.

Mrs Smith, that is too funny.
Buck ‘gently suggests’, ‘tells a story’, he gives SO MANY HINTS…
And he won’t go right to overpowering you with his authority, until he’s pretty much tried a lot of other ways.

I’ve heard him say, ‘remember yesterday, Jill, when I was answering John’s question about rabbits…in my answer, I was talking to YOU, telling you how to address your own troubles with badgers…’ (well, that’s an allegory, but you get the picture)

In my own clinic two summers ago, we were asked to leg yield from (the quarter line) to the rail, at the rail to ask for a few steps of haunches-in, walk and trot, while Buck worked with two cantering riders changing leads over a telephone pole.
The ‘homework’ riders had to stay out so they didn’t interfere.
We did this every day, and every day, Buck said, ‘You riders on the outside, DO NOT leg yield back toward the center.’
About day three, I thought, well, these riders don’t know the difference between haunches-in and leg-yield, so someone (as in Buck) needs to explain that to them…
On day four, I figured out that Buck knew perfectly well that the riders needed that explained to them, but he was going to wait for them to figure out on their OWN that they needed to ask, themselves, why he kept telling them not to leg-yield back toward the center.
Same clinic, he was a bit more obvious about telling the H1 riders, to go on a loose rein.
Two riders let off the reins, two inches…
Buck said, loudly, “I said a LOOSE REIN”.
No response from the death-grip riders.
So instead of saying, John, Sally, you must give up a foot of rein on each side, and that is what I mean by a loose rein…
Buck says, OK, y’all, there are a couple of you that won’t let your reins LOOSE. So I’m going to work your behinds off, until those of you figure 'maybe he meant me…and go on a LOOSE REIN when I ask.

Very effective, hugely more so, in the long run, than ‘John, Sally, this is what I mean by a loose rein…’
Especially, because if you don’t understand, you have many opportunities to GO ASK him to explain, ask for help, he will have his apprentice work with you and your horse ‘after hours’ if there is something like you are overhorsed and won’t be able to find ‘it’ on your own.

I think a lot of people (auditors or riders) don’t ‘hear’ until the volume is turned way, way up…Buck can have a tremendous volume (although I think Dr. Deb’s might be more fearsome yet). And when it gets to that volume, lots of people have just shut themselves down/out already, so it just makes them madder.

[Fillabeana]

And mvp, I did the ‘children’s’ EST training in San Fransisco on the late 70’s…and hated it.

I was overpowered, and told that I could ‘turn loose’ of having that done.

Well, yes, you can…
But for that to be effective, in laying a horse down, in a person TRULY making the decision to turn loose…
You cannot be overpowered or overruled.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7466256]

I’ve heard him say, ‘remember yesterday, Jill, when I was answering John’s question about rabbits…in my answer, I was talking to YOU, telling you how to address your own troubles with badgers…’ (well, that’s an allegory, but you get the picture)

Same clinic, he was a bit more obvious about telling the H1 riders, to go on a loose rein.
Two riders let off the reins, two inches…
Buck said, loudly, “I said a LOOSE REIN”.
No response from the death-grip riders.
So instead of saying, John, Sally, you must give up a foot of rein on each side, and that is what I mean by a loose rein…
Buck says, OK, y’all, there are a couple of you that won’t let your reins LOOSE. So I’m going to work your behinds off, until those of you figure 'maybe he meant me…and go on a LOOSE REIN when I ask.

---

I think a lot of people (auditors or riders) don’t ‘hear’ until the volume is turned way, way up…Buck can have a tremendous volume (although I think Dr. Deb’s might be more fearsome yet). And when it gets to that volume, lots of people have just shut themselves down/out already, so it just makes them madder.[/QUOTE]

In my clinic, in my FH class on day 1, there was a lady who had a horse that looked like way too much horse for her. She was an english rider with a huge horse . . . and she had a broken arm (or something - I remember her arm was in a cast or brace). I think she had asked a question and as he was addressing her and answering it, her horse was doing just what she asked a question about - maybe keeping her horse’s attention or something like that. And after he answered her, she went on to question him and he said something like, “like right now, like right now, like right now” because as she was talking, she was totally oblivious to what her horse was doing, which was looking around completely inattentive to her. I’m guessing she felt picked on because she never came back, but it was a perfect example of how her horse wasn’t paying attention to her because she wasn’t paying attention to her horse and had absolutely no idea what was going on around her.

I remember in my clinic, he also said that he wanted to see everyone who was in the clinics auditing every other class. And sure enough, he called out to a couple people to see if they were in the auditing audience and sure enough, they weren’t there. And sure enough, they were people who really needed help but who seemed to not be open to the process of taking everything they could from the experience.

I found learning in the clinic to be much more subtle than just going through exercises. There’s a LOT there, even if you never ask for/get 1-1 attention, there’s plenty of opportunity to learn through watching, listening, and doing.

[Pocket_Pony]

What is EST?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

When I audited the Buck clinic in Clemson, SC last fall, I was struck by how soft-spoken and polite Buck was. I guess either nobody ticked him off, or I have a hard time recognizing intimidation.

[mrs.smith]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7466335]
When I audited the Buck clinic in Clemson, SC last fall, I was struck by how soft-spoken and polite Buck was. I guess either nobody ticked him off, or I have a hard time recognizing intimidation.[/QUOTE]

The clinic I was at, I did see Buck get upset just once. It was at a teenage girl who kept rolling her eyes at him every time he offered a suggestion. He pulled her into the center of the ring, pointed his finger at her and shouted, “Don’t you roll your eyes at me young lady! I raised three daughters and…” I would’ve loved to have heard the rest, but his microphone cut out! It did make all the other riders (who probably heard the rest of the dressing down), sit up a little straighter in their saddles and pay attention more.

Afterward, he went on teaching the clinic in his same soft spoken manner. I made a comment to my friend that he works with people the same way he does with horses. Dials it up when he needs to, then dials it back down.

edited to add, this was at Lexington, KY last year, if anyone else remembers this little scene. I’d love to know what else Buck said to the girl. She was very attentive afterwards.

[katarine]

I spent 4 days with Ray Hunt back in 2000. He worked his tired old butt to death for anyone and everyone there that was listening and trying. He was patient, encouraging, and helpful. One lady arrived in tears the second morning, her horse wouldn’t load. Ray by God jumped up and said 'how far away is he?" and they were off, him, the owner, and another owner’s groom…and they were back in about 20 minutes with said horse in the trailer

He was a real gem. If you weren’t paying attention you were just dead to him. Some folks were chatting and goofing off- and Ray just worked around them. Hey, if they want to hand him $400 bucks and not want or get anything in return, that’s their choice. Shrug.

Yet in that same clinic I saw him overface a horse and the rider ended up knocked unconscious while sitting in the saddle. He picked a fight that the rider lost.

No one’s perfect.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7465104]
I do NOT read Buck as having some ‘constant stream of negativity’ or being universally negative about Dressage riders. In fact, if that is what you want to do, Buck has a list of people who can help you with riding your horse, with dressage as your main focus, without sacrificing the mental aspect, the whole core of his teaching.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t mean that in the way you’re interpreting it. I just used that example as one of the constant negative-themed comments I had to deal with over the course of the clinic.

It was now long enough ago that I can’t even remember the exact quotes, but I do remember the fatigued feeling. By the end of the clinic, I just wanted to go home and get away from the running sarcastic commentary. The snappy one liners that “drill the point home” are funny in movies or while auditing, but after four days of them, they get old.

The experience was just draining mentally, and not from the perspective of the horsemanship part. That bit was fine. I knew the exercises he described, in as much as I knew them from his video (as in I don’t claim to have done them perfectly), and that put me a step above a lot of fellow riders I had lunch with (who were lost). I got another level of refinement to add to those exercises, and from that perspective, it was okay.

I’ll emphasize something else as well - I don’t believe any of it was directly directed at me. Just being exposed to negative energy for so long combined with way too many riders in only a moderately sized arena was just too much.

I like to think of myself as a good student, so for clinics where there’s a morning class and and afternoon, I always stay to watch the class I’m not in. By the end of my Buck clinic though, I didn’t have the energy (or inclination) to bother.

Was it because Calgary is his last clinic of the year? Maybe. Don’t really care, personally. I just know that I can get the same info from other sources, and so I choose to go elsewhere.
His clinics here sell out both rider AND auditor spots, and I have no desire to use a spot someone else wants. Didn’t even bother to go watch last year, for example.

Is it because his teaching style AT THIS LOCATION doesn’t jive with me? Sure, could be. I just know that when I work with Josh, or Martin, or Bruce, I come away energized and inspired.

They don’t blow smoke up anyone’s backside, and I remember Richard Caldwell came up to me after a cow working session that went a little sideways and asked if he’d been a little hard on me. I said no worries - I totally got it. Getting pushed out of your comfort zone is great if done with a purpose and a bit of care, and is usually a useful experience.

OTOH, I couldn’t wait to get my horse home from the High River clinic, and my wife flat out refused to let me spend any more money at this location. She knew nothing of the western world at that time, but was appalled at the whole clinic experience.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7465104]And as far as Buck and Ray, in a clinic, and their teaching style: I think they are trying just as hard, or harder, to get through to the PERSON to turn loose, as they are the horse. They know they can’t have much effect, in four days, if you don’t. Buck (and Ray, as per my mentor, Bryan Neubert, Buster McLaury, and others) is trying to get his STUDENTS on a feel. It is an amazing experience, connecting to your instructor that way, where you are feeling of the teacher, feeling of the horse, the horse is feeling of you…and you’re just as busy as can be without having to be some sort of marionette that the teacher manipulates, talks you through things…
It is really different from how most people run a good clinic. And some people just can’t, or won’t, do it.
If you defend yourself, if you find fault with particulars of the teacher, if you try to do everything RIGHT instead of ask, observe, remember, compare…all you’re learning is a few exercises. And you might as well just buy the 7-Clinics if you’re not going to turn loose yourself.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, not able to perform the mental gymnastics that somehow mean I didn’t fully open myself to the experience. Great that others have had good ones, but up here, there are a few of us that haven’t.

I’m with emilia on this. I’ve now ridden with Buck, and taken a dissection clinic with Dr Deb. I might do another dissection clinic because the info really isn’t available in another way so I can suck that up, but no way am I going back to a Buck clinic. It’s a teaching style thing to an extent, but I also wouldn’t treat people the way my class got treated. The other people I’ve worked with have proved that isn’t necessary.

Take the comments you made regarding bosals in another thread:

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7465104]
If you go to a Buck clinic, and you are not in Buck’s opinion ready to be using a bosal…

…and you are lucky, Buck will tell you that, reasonably privately/one-on-one, during maybe the second or third day.

…and if you are not lucky, Buck might tell you (on the last day of the clinic) VERY loudly over the loudspeaker that "SALLY, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE BOSAL. Your horse is doing x, y, z and etc and you need to go back and get these VERY BASIC things going…

I’ve heard both.

Oh, and if you're really 'not lucky' (and in his opinion you don't belong in the bosal, yet)...Buck won't say doodly squat about it. [/QUOTE]

In my opinion, that’s too much uncertainty. You may or may not hear something if you’re either fine or not fine. So when I shook Buck’s hand at the end and he asked me who made my horse’s bosal, what did he mean? It was the only comment he made directly about my gear.

To each their own.

The only reason I’m beating this to death BTW, is in the context of this thread, there are other ways a newbie to the methods may find the same info.

It’s not always the experience the movie might portray. In fact, if you’re like me, you’ll have to dodge people who signed up to ride strictly because of the movie, but don’t actually want to learn the horsemanship part. When 20-odd people are going left and two lovely people are yakking while going right, you wonder why they’re even bothering to be there.

[aktill]

To be fair BTW, he’ll answer any question you ask. I asked a bunch, and got good, positive answers as if I had asked any other good teacher.

When the group gets sent out and he’s instructing the lot, however, that’s when the comments start.

[aktill]

One thing that I agree with that others have posted here is that Buck’s style likely comes from an honest effort to reach as many people as he can. He may be using the best tool he can with the cutting remarks, in that the dullest amongst us require such an approach.

This was an experience in “getting back out into the real world”, I will admit.

-Before the intro speech had ended, one lady’s horse had reared up and gone over back on her (Buck’s only response…“That was odd”).
-When he sent us out onto the rail, another got bucked off before making it there.
-One guy whose horse kept bucking on the spot in the group was encouraged, on the last day, to “maybe do some groundwork rather than getting bucked off”
-A lady beside me wanted to show Buck how her horse would pin it’s ears and kick at other horses by driving hers between mine and a person beside me. I got to see how quickly a could vacate the area to avoid getting my horse crippled by an idiot
etc etc

I admit, I’m sheltered in my horsemanship circle. I work with folks who are good hands, I ride with caring people, and even the barn I board at keeps a waiting list rather than letting in any Tom, Dick or Harry. So experiences like this with the “real world” are always interesting.

That said, I’m also fine with not having to wade through the “drive finishing nails with a sledgehammer” approach. If some of the folks reading this are similar, then just be warned that you may get more elsewhere.

One-on-one instruction just flat out works better for me. That can be in the context of a group lesson, as Martin Black does and Richard Caldwell did. They worked with the group, and used directed teaching where applicable. A private lesson is great too.

As popular as Buck is, most people are going to be instructed in a BIG group, primarily by generalized instruction. That will work for some folks, and not others.

For the cost of the clinics though ($650 odd up here), it’s a pricey opportunity where you’ll have to be willing to demand attention politely to get it (unless you’re really screwing up or excelling, I would suppose).

[froglander]

Guess it can’t hurt to share a bit more of my horsey background.

Grew up a horse-crazy kid in Washington state with very limited access to actual horses, so most of my time was spent drawing and reading.

My mentor in the beginning (got my first horse when I was 19 or 20) had a copy of Parelli’s “Horse-Man-ship” book, that I think was before he became the marketing guru he is today. Her next taste of “natural horsemanship” was reading Monty Roberts book. Where she has ended up with her barn and lesson program is using a lot of stuff from Clinton Anderson. It seems to work for her and her barn and they do a lot of obstacle challenge stuff.

I hadn’t had a horse for 4 years when opportunity called me up one day and showed me the door to getting a mustang if I just reached out and pushed.

So…in Dec of 2008, amid trying to get a shelter and corral built, I went down with the gal who had called me up and picked out a mustang. There were a LOT of horses to choose from! I picked Cody because I liked how he moved and he was listed as being 15h as a long yearling. Turned out he was actually a year old and 3" shorter than they’d listed, but that actually turned out better in the end

So my BO friend gave me some tips and let me borrow her Downunder Horsemanship book and that’s how I got Cody started with groundwork. I was not familiar with names like Buck or any of the others you guys have mentioned at the time. Something must have worked though because I get compliments on his manners at the barn where I board now often

I stubbornly started him under saddle myself, and have done all his training with the help of lessons along the way when I can. I don’t have near the experience most of you here have, but I do try to learn and find these threads invaluable

Sorry for rambling!

[Fillabeana]

What is EST? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

In short, a 1970’s and 1980’s ‘guru’ driven craze in which people could learn to deeply turn loose.
Some people had a fabulous experience.
Some people didn’t, often because they had their will overpowered in a very unpleasant way.
It wasn’t the ‘unpleasant’ part (like not being able to go to the bathroom for an 8 hour stretch), so much as the ‘force’ applied.

Like, when you want a horse’s idea to be your idea.
You have to set it up so the horse can FIND it. You cannot ever TAKE it from the horse, get the horse to understand he really has no choice, or that both ‘choices’ are unpleasant so he chooses your ‘easier’ one…the horse will defend himself against that, reserve a deep part of himself, eventually look for the ‘choice’ that gives him peace, instead of ‘less’ annoyance rather than ‘more’ annoyance.

Same with people…some people went and did EST training, and gave themselves entirely to the idea of learning, and learned that they could turn loose, mentally, of themselves in some pretty challenging situations.

And some went through the training (like I did) and came up against a place where some ‘choice’ was imposed upon them, and thus had a lousy time.

[re-runs]

I dont have much extra to add just that I am sure glad this thread has turned out the way it did and I got to meet you all on a deeper level and learned about your backrounds. Im really enjoying it and very impressed with all the experiences.

I want to make another observation that I have about these vaquero type clinics and the people who attend them…people are generally really nice and you don`t find the railbirds making nasty comments on the side like you do with some disciplines, not as many know it all types. In fact, it is just the opposite…I think more people put themselves in the students place and are overjoyed when someone gets it.

I was at a Kip Fladland clinic last year and there was a lot of clapping and cheering, it was a fun clinic. There were quite a few children and young people in the clinic and there was a lot of sincere encouragement going on. Everyone left improved, inspired, and feeling really good about the whole deal and looking forward to the next time.

Besides being a real nice person and wonderful horseman, Bryan Neubert can tell some very meaningful stories about days with the Dorrance brothers and has a great sense of humor. Bryans attitude makes it seem like he is enjoying being there and his students pick that up too. Most of the stories he tells are pertinent to something he is trying to get across, they aren`t just for entertainment. Like Tom Dorrance, they are metaphors. The clinic turned out very fruitful and I willingly hung on every word and enjoyed being there and learned a lot.

And Joe Wolter…such a knowledgeable gentleman, classic rider with a flawless balanced seat who rides most of the horses in the clinic if not all of them. VERY subtle in what he does. If he sees you having problems he might wait a few minutes to see if youve figured it out by yourself but if he sees youre not going to get it by yourself, he steps in and shows you with more detail. He doesnt spoonfeed you though, just like the horses he gives you enough that you are left wanting more. He might even get the horse going the way he is trying to teach you, hand you back your horse and then give you some personal instruction. Of course all this fits together so their project most likely fits with your project but if you don`t think so at the time, it will sooner than later.

Mind you, these few guys tend to keep the number of riders in their clinics small.

[froglander]

Curious, there is a place way up north in Florida that sometimes has clinics, and I think this guy has been there before, does anyone know anything about him?
http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Lightness-The-Educating-Horse/dp/1592283608
http://www.naturaldressage.com/about-2/