Introducing myself and few questions to those that hang around the "western" section

[QUOTE=aktill;7466532]
One thing that I agree with that others have posted here is that Buck’s style likely comes from an honest effort to reach as many people as he can. He may be using the best tool he can with the cutting remarks, in that the dullest amongst us require such an approach. [/QUOTE]

That does explain it… (though I’m not sure why one would assume the folks who paid so much to be there weren’t trying), and it explains why I’m glad to audit but I’ve never wanted to ride in those big groups.

There’s a local guy who has taken Brannaman clinics for 10 years, and does a pretty good job with teaching the same stuff. The groups are smaller. I like it that he does more to tell people how/where to position their body than does Brannaman. That’s helpful for most of us. But all his clinics are the same and if you ask “higher order” questions…. like when to use an exercise or quit, he points out that he has to limit himself to teaching “the mechanics” of how to do them in his sessions. I went a few times and practiced on my own, but I’m not sure I’ll continue in that setting.

I do have a nice marketing idea for you people who think that publicly shaming slacker students is an OK feature of a clinician. It’s a T-shirt that says

(Front): “I had my a$$ handed to me by Buck Brannaman”

(Back): “And I paid a lot for the privilege.”

The only thing friends and I have come up with is some people like to be able to say “I rode with Buck” (or whoever).

People do it in the English world too (variations of “I trained in Germany with Herr Von dressagenmeister”).

Doesn’t mean they learned anything, but…

“I had my a$$ handed to me by Buck Brannaman”

MVP…I know someone who actually said that…she had brought her mule to the clinic. :winkgrin:

If Buck was in the neighborhood and I didnt have to fight the crowds(the last clinic he did near me had over a hundred spectators/auditors) Id audit. I am sure I would take home some pearls to ponder.

Just as a side note…Ray Hunt didnt seem to draw many auditors but the clinics near me were always full of riders, probably too many. I dont know what that means except that maybe you already knew who he was through your own serious horse doings before you signed up. He didnt have any movies out to advertise.;) maybe it means he was more a horsemens horseman I guess.

I thought way back when, that someday Buck would be the one to stand out to the public. Not only did he have a backround in show business with his roping tricks but he had the tv commercials when he was a child. As a clinician he has been to some very famous persons farms to give private clinics so he certainly had the contacts. I am actually surprised it took so long and was picked up by a fairly unknown person. I had seen him do short tv parts about his horsemanship, one I can remember was with Tom Brokaw. One thing I admire about him is he always gives credit to his mentors and tells the newbies that he didn`t invent this stuff. The way I feel about it is…Ray Hunt is gone, the Dorrances have all passed, if this type of horsemanship is to go on and inspire, then Buck might as well be the one that accepts the torch. I am sure the horses will benefit by the fact that someone is out there that is visible, talking about this deeper approach to life, especially now in our ever increasingly superficial modern way of living. I can remember when this type of horsemanship was almost extinct and available to only a few. It would be a sad day if it ever went underground again.

I grew up riding western, moved into barrel racing when I moved to TX, then tried cutting, reining, and fell head over heels for reining. When the first husband moved us to WV I stuck with reining, but there just wasn’t a lot going on, then I went back to school, learned all about dressage, and started taking lessons.

I rode and trained dressage for a little over 12 years, got very hurt in a car accident, then suffered a class IV concussion, and had to take a long time off riding, and had to pretty much stop training. When I was finally allowed to ride again, I did it on a little QH mare that is just the quietest, move forgiving horse I’ve ever been privileged to ride. She is a true gem.

Anyhow, we have been playing around with western dressage, some reining, and a bit of ranch pleasure. If I ask her, she will do it. And western dressage is starting to show up quite nicely here, and also, the Oldenburg gelding needs put under saddle, which I am basically forbidden to do myself, and due to career changes for my husband, he has not time to do, and we can’t afford to send him out right now. So, for me, western & dressage have happily married, and I have a truly lovely little mare to do it on.

By the way, being around QH and Paint shows with my SIL, I do not feel the majority of western riders at all think/see collection the same as my dressage & other English riding friends/trainers do. A few, but not many. I ride all my horses in dressage principles/basics, regardless of breed, etc.

@ re-runs.

The way we got on the Brannaman roast was the comparison to Parelli.

I didn’t know the old guys you mention. I do think that Ray Hunt either spoke in sound bites suitable for modern advertising or folks have made him into Aphorism Boy. Doesn’t he have a Facebook page despite being dead? That’s a pretty good trick.

In any case, I do think that having an ability and affinity for a bit of showmanship does contribute to the success of a clinician. That’s not bad; it’s just a fact. Those who can’t or won’t teach this way…. don’t become the names we are all discussing here. But they are still great trainers to learn from, just one lesson at a time.

I don’t think that good horsemanship will go extinct or not if Brannaman were to quit tomorrow. There will be some people practicing that long, slow, essentially very private training at home somewhere. But I do think that the larger the clinics get, the more of a Parelli-trajectory this discipline will take.

IMO, the best way to deal with that is to audit just about anyone you can. It’s cheap, it’s low risk (since you don’t have your horse or your ego to protect) and you can treat the person as offering you something new to fold into your already-building system of horsemanship. You don’t have to recant entirely and start over with each guy. Or, rather, you shouldn’t have to.

One-on-one instruction just flat out works better for me. That can be in the context of a group lesson, as Martin Black does and Richard Caldwell did. They worked with the group, and used directed teaching where applicable. A private lesson is great too.

As popular as Buck is, most people are going to be instructed in a BIG group, primarily by generalized instruction. That will work for some folks, and not others.

For the cost of the clinics though ($650 odd up here), it’s a pricey opportunity where you’ll have to be willing to demand attention politely to get it (unless you’re really screwing up or excelling, I would suppose).

Sorry, not able to perform the mental gymnastics that somehow mean I didn’t fully open myself to the experience.

OK, Aktill, so if you aren’t going to get curious about how or why people will go ride in a crowded arena, with little ‘personal attention’, spend a lot of $$ and take a tremendous amount of learning home from the experience, then I will present this again, in other words, for other people to read.

And, Aktill, I am not trying to ‘argue’ or ‘make a point’, or sass you. If you want to get curious about how Buck and Ray made such a huge impression for some people in ‘grossly overcrowded’ clinics, you will get curious. Otherwise, you will continue seeking instruction from people who give you personal, face-to-face explanations. And that is entirely your decision, it can’t ever be judged as the ‘wrong’ one by me.

Ray Hunt, in his CD ‘Think’, talks a bit about how things were when he first met Tom Dorrance.
Ray wanted to know, who taught YOU, Tom?
And Tom replied it was the horse that taught him…so Ray assumed he had himself always ridden dumb horses, and boy would he ever like to be around those SMART horses that had taught Tom.

And another Buck clinic story…
The clinic had started 5 days ago with colt starting, and the colts were continuing on into the H1 class. It was day one for me, day 5 for the colt folks.
One gal’s horse was pretty troubled, and kicked the tar out of other horses if they got too close. During the colt clinic, most of that got some close attention, but Buck still told all of us, that if we got kicked, it was NOT colty’s fault, that we should pay attention and stay OUT of his way.

Day two, Buck makes an answer to someone’s question, and says, ‘By the way, John, thank you for giving my horse a lot of ‘personal space’. That is the polite thing to do, and I appreciate it, lots of people just ride right up without paying attention.’ On the surface, that was a compliment to John, but also a reminder to the participants not to ride in too close to each other, and to the problem colt. (Who never had a ‘blowout’, by the way.)

Day four, I ride up to ask Buck a question, and keeping the ‘personal space’ thing in mind, I look carefully and aim to position my horse about two meters away.
I am waiting for him to finish speaking to someone else, he is talking to the rider on his right, I am coming up on his left.

…and as I ride in closer, Buck’s horse gives me a pinned ears, nasty pinchy face.
So, I re-calcuclate, positioning my horse farther away than I had first thought I needed to be, and Buck’s horse quit with the nasty face.

Buck answered my question without saying a thing about personal space.
But I believe Buck was showing, and telling, me that I should read clues from the other horse, about how much space to give. I had ridden up thinking about a particular length, not noticing or looking at or gauging his horse’s reaction.

I do not believe for a second, that Buck didn’t notice his horse sassing me. I’ve never seen Buck’s horses pull faces like that. I’ve seen Buck tolerate lots and lots of people who don’t know any better, who don’t have basic control of their horse…and Buck might give you a body-language clue but I have always seen him ask his horses to ignore it.

I think Buck felt his horse’s reaction as I rode up. Buck wanted for me to learn something, and so he let his HORSE give me an OBVIOUS clue, rather than telling me anything about how I should read the other horse to gauge space needs.

Long story short…look for answers within the HORSE.

Buck does a lot of subtle stuff in his clinics, and I am sure there are fifteen or twenty clues he tried to give me for every one I found.

He’s trying to engage you on another level. When you begin to look for it, there is quite a lot of ‘one on one’ attention given to you in those crowded clinics. It just isn’t very much ‘face time’ or talking you through things.

When Buck learned these things, he didn’t have videos of Ray or Tom to watch.
He went to every clinic he could, hung out on the rail and watched, trying to figure out for himself what was going on.

Those clueless riders…some of them are going to try, try again, and somehow get turned-loose, along with their horse, they’re going to feel that connection for the first time. How does that happen? It can’t depend entirely on a rider’s ability.

Buck has said before in a clinic, I won’t see some of you guys for one or even two years, I want you to have enough to think about until then.

I won’t say that one-on-one instruction isn’t a hugely valuable tool, but finding that ability to look in other places, to try and make mistakes and learn from not one but lots of horses, with ‘your problem’ or something you have working really well…that advances your understanding of this horsemanship in a logarithmic way, rather than one notch at a time, one lesson at a time.

That reminds me that I wanted to come back and post about why I pay so much money to participate in a clinic with so many other people and not get specific 1/1 attention.

I do it because I ride at home or on the trails alone. 95% of my riding is done alone. The only time I’ve had a major problem with Mac was when we were in a group of people and he was feeding off of the energy of other horses and I wasn’t proactive in getting his attention on me.

That is a problem I cannot solve without being around a bunch of other horses. And I wanted to solve the problem with the potential for guidance from someone who wouldn’t tell me to put a longe line on him or put him in a round pen and have him “run it out.” I wanted solutions/exercises to help me be in a busy, chaotic environment, and yet be able to focus on Mac and have Mac focus on me.

Sure, I could take him to a horse show and try it and hope for the best, but there wouldn’t be someone there who could necessarily help me through the situation if I needed it. I don’t necessarily want someone in my ear all the time, I don’t want someone watching and commenting on my every move. I want someone who will give me suggestions, show me what to do, guide me in setting up an exercise, and then leave me alone to figure out the subtleties of it for myself. I want to know that there is someone there who can REALLY offer me help and solutions should the shit hit the fan, but who will otherwise let me try to figure it out for myself.

What better venue to do that than at a busy fairgrounds, in an indoor arena, with people stomping on bleachers as they walk around, music blaring, horses doing all sorts of things around me, and someone talking on a microphone? It really is/was the perfect venue for me and I’m looking forward to going back to give it another go.

Fillabeana, on most things unrelated to Buck, I think we agree more often then not. When it comes to speaking about his clinics or approach to things (ie the hackamore) however, more often then not we seem to just wait for the other to finish and then state our same opinions over again. I’m not likely to get exactly where you’re coming from any more than you are I, so we’re probably best off just agreeing to disagree. No hard feelings though!

Despite my not getting along with the clinic setup and teaching approach, I’m tickled that other people do. I just wish we could discuss these things from a what works for us approach, rather than a “but the trainer said” approach, whoever they are. Makes things more of a discussion rather than a recitation. I’m just as guilty as anyone though, not claiming sainthood here.

I’ve stated why I don’t get along with the format of those clinics in this thread, so I think I’m done. Others may want to find out for themselves, which is also great.

I’m glad I WENT, I just wouldn’t go again.

Fillabeana, on most things unrelated to Buck, I think we agree more often then not. When it comes to speaking about his clinics or approach to things (ie the hackamore) however, more often then not we seem to just wait for the other to finish and then state our same opinions over again. I’m not likely to get exactly where you’re coming from any more than you are I, so we’re probably best off just agreeing to disagree. No hard feelings though!

Despite my not getting along with the clinic setup and teaching approach, I’m tickled that other people do. I just wish we could discuss these things from a what works for us approach, rather than a “but the trainer said” approach, whoever they are. Makes things more of a discussion rather than a recitation. I’m just as guilty as anyone though, not claiming sainthood here.

I’ve stated why I don’t get along with the format of those clinics in this thread, so I think I’m done. Others may want to find out for themselves, which is also great.

I’m glad I WENT, I just wouldn’t go again.

Namaste to you, too :slight_smile:

It is so important to recognize the authority within our own selves.

The lack of this recognition and a dependence on ‘that’s what my guru/clinician says’ as an ‘always true’ fallback, are what define brainwashed, or kool-aid drinkers.

Sometimes, when we deny what a master is telling us, we are being defensive, we are in denial.
And sometimes, we are recognizing a truth within ourselves.
It is a blessing to be able to turn loose of ourselves enough to investigate the situation for its truth within ourselves. The vulnerability, to go out and try something and be willing to make a mistake, to check something out with mindfulness of a warning but openness of mind, to look into a dilemma that might, or might not, be ‘solvable’ is so empowering.

Tom Dorrance got frustrated sometimes, with people saying, ‘well, what would Tom do in this situation’. He thought it could sometimes be helpful, but what they should really be asking themselves, is what THEY actually COULD do in a particular situation.

Hey… I lived in NE Nevada too for several years in Elko. I was the opposite, an English rider that got exposed to western in Buckaroo country for real! I love Capriola Saddlery BTW… beautiful work!

Welcome to COTH! I have fully for now anyway have switched to western. I love cow work and am having the best time with my cow ESP mare Tivie

I am so hooked!

Lots to learn for me now in Western… but I was glad to see a Western section on this board now that I can talk about my cow gettin’ critter! :slight_smile:

Took me a bit to get caught up on this thread but I wanted to say thank you to everyone for sharing your background story, thoughts and clinic experiences!
I have never been to a clinic or a clinician follower per say, it made for some interesting reading.

La Gringa, Elko is our nearest “big town”(it has a Wal-Mart so therefor considered big :slight_smile: Wells is a little closer and I can take the dirt road all the way there.

You guys! This is such a great discussion; I’m learning a lot. Aces N Eights, thank you for starting this thread!

Watching the documentary about Buck was my introduction to the vaquero tradition of horsemanship, and it made an enormous impact on me. I was hooked. I’ve been around horses since I was a child, but I was honestly not a very educated rider. Since then I’ve tried to learn as much as I can about this style of horsemanship (Ray Hunt, Dorrance brothers, etc.) I’ve audited two of Buck’s clinics, one in Washington and one in Texas. I enjoyed them thoroughly, and learned so much. My impression was that he was very gentle, firm when he needed to be, and incredibly earnest. And yes, very subtle. I loved that at his clinics I could observe him working his green horses in the H1 class, and then see his bridle horse in the H2 class. Each time I left his clinics I left feeling inspired, energized, with a full heart.

Just my two cents!

I am not familiar with Joe Wolter, but I see a few of you have mentioned him. I’m moving my horse to a new boarding facility that had a Joe Wolter clinic a couple months ago. If they hold another one next year, would it be worth it to sign up to participate? I’ve never ridden in a clinic before.

I am grateful to have such a erudite, high-quality group from which to learn. The more I learn the more I realize how little I really know.

[QUOTE=FreckleBeast;7501568]

I am not familiar with Joe Wolter, but I see a few of you have mentioned him. I’m moving my horse to a new boarding facility that had a Joe Wolter clinic a couple months ago. If they hold another one next year, would it be worth it to sign up to participate? [/QUOTE]

I’m planning on a Buck clinic myself this summer if all goes well. I have not seen Joe Wolter in action, but have read a few of his articles and he strikes me as a good hand- I’d be inclined to attend one of his clinics, certainly if at my own barn.

I think I should. Hopefully they’ll hold another one. I hope you get to go to your Buck clinic! Will you be riding or auditing?

[QUOTE=FreckleBeast;7508078]
I think I should. Hopefully they’ll hold another one. I hope you get to go to your Buck clinic! Will you be riding or auditing?[/QUOTE]

Will be riding.

How exciting!